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Royal Navy lieutenant is cleared of raping female sailor twice after she lap danced for him naked in her hotel room

furchfur

June 15, 2017
67 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4606744/Royal-Navy-lieutenant-cleared-raping-female-sailor.html
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Title Royal Navy lieutenant is cleared of raping female sailor twice after she lap danced for him naked in her hotel room
Author

furchfur

Upvotes 67
Comments 30
Date June 15, 2017 11:44 AM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6hehh2/royal_navy_lieutenant_is_cleared_of_raping_female/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/royal-navy-lieutenant-is-cleared-of-raping-female.920401
https://theredarchive.com/post/920401
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Comments

[–]feedmecarrots 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

From what I have heard, had he faced a US court-martial, I would not have given him a nickel for his chances. Still, now that they have found for him, what are they going to do with his accuser? In a he said/she said situation, one of them must be lying.

[–]KDulius 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Fortunately British Court Marshals still have the whole burden of proof thing unfucked with.

I give it 6 months before Feminists change this

[–]feedmecarrots 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You don't want to see that happen. This is a morale killer in the US military.

[–]KDulius 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course not.

However, since when have Feminists given a fuck about the moral of men?

[–]feedmecarrots 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You have a good point. They have a very tenuous grasp of the obvious.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The court did not "find for him".
It found he had not been proved to be guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, if that is the standard a court martial uses.

The vast majority of rape cases are undecided either way. About 2% of complaints are provably false, and a larger number are unprovably false. About 2-3% of complaints get convicted depending on jurisdiction. So 95% of complaints to police are dismissed as not provable either way. The police will have very strong suspicions in some proportion of them.

[–]bufedad -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

In a he said/she said situation, one of them must be lying.

I'm not familiar with this particular case, but in a he said/she said situation they can actually both be telling the truth. Memory is fucked up.

There was a study where researchers where consistently able to make people remember assaulting their best friend in high school through a friendly one hour conversation. This event had never happened, but they were able to make people remember it.

Memory isn't what you think it is.

[–]feedmecarrots 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

If they are in conflict, only one of them can be correct. We are dealing with adults here, not children given to fantasy.

[–]bufedad 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

If they are in conflict, only one of them can be correct.

That is absolutely true.

We are dealing with adults here, not children given to fantasy.

Sorry, the most unreliable evidence is memory. That's adults, not children.

[–]HiredMind 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

If that's the case then we should never send anyone to prison based on one person's testimony alone.

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

I absolutely agree.

American Psychiatric Association

You'll find the sections on suggestibility, bias, and Misattribution to be very interesting.

Read on suggestibility

Psycholpedia

Example of memory suggestibility:

A witness' testimony is altered because the police or attorneys make suggestions during the interview, which causes their already uncertain observations to become distorted memories.

Actual case of memory suggestibility:

When she was 12 years old, Donna Smith began suffering migraines which led to sleep deprivaion and depression. Her therapist, who was a specialist in cases involving child abuse, repeatedly asked her whether her father had sexually abused her. This suggestion caused Donna to fabricate memories of her father molesting her, which led to her being placed in foster care and her father being tried on charges of abuse.

Definitely something to think about.

No one should really ever go to prison on witness testimony alone.

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was around for the ritual abuse moral panic in the 1980s, we had a huge one in my city. It was insane.
Then they found out more about false memory implantation, but too late for a lot of people. It was obviously happening in our case but our police just drove the whole wagon train over a cliff, it was horrible to watch.

[–]ThirdTurnip 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Memory can be subject to error but is actually very reliable. If it wasn't then education would be largely pointless.

In experiments on these errors they typically find only a relatively small percentage of subjects misremember events, even when experimenters have deliberately set out to fuck with their memories.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Memory can be subject to error but is actually very reliable. If it wasn't then education would be largely pointless.

If memory were reliable, you could tell someone something once, and they would know it. Repetition would not required (which it is).

In fact, in education, repetition is required explicitly because memory is so unreliable.

[–]ThirdTurnip 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

If memory were reliable, you could tell someone something once, and they would know it.

That works for a lot of people.

Repetition would not required (which it is).

You make the mistake of believing that every human is identical. They aren't.

Intelligence and memory vary widely primarily courtesy of genetics. There are also a range of non-genetic factors which affect it.

In fact, in education, repetition is required explicitly because memory is so unreliable.

Speaking as an educator and psychologist, that's total nonsense.

Repetition is one technique for cramming something into your brain. It works for some things and for some people but definitely not for others.

It can be good for memorising unrelated factoids - the year someone was born, a phone number, etc. It's fairly useless for other things like understanding a process.

It is not required and for many people - most judging by experimental results - is fairly reliable.

What research shows is that a relatively small proportion of people can express great confidence in memories which are known to be false.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

That works for a lot of people.

Umm... no, it doesn't.

You make the mistake of believing that every human is identical. They aren't.

No, some people have absolutely perfect memory. These people are studied by the scientific community.

Intelligence and memory vary widely primarily courtesy of genetics. There are also a range of non-genetic factors which affect it.

Source?

Speaking as an educator and psychologist, that's total nonsense.

Yes, random internet person, I'm going to take your word over the scientific studies on the subject.

[–]Mackowatosc 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True, we should not. Words are not evidence, and women misuse them constantly to their own benefit.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought that was the rule, that one person's word was not enough to convict on for the memory unreliability reason and others.
But I think that rule was eased a bit in some jurisdictions for rape trials because it was practically impossible to convict.

It is still extremely difficult to convict (about 2% of complaints get convicted, and most rapes don't even generate a complaint). And cases without supporting evidence are normally declined by eithet the police or the prosecutor, so I don't know what they require to go ahead in that situation.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I've read about experiments like that with children, and some with adults but nothing as memorable as assaulting their best friend in high school. Do you have a source or any hints for searching?

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I looked for a link for it, but I can't find it. I'm not sure how long ago I read this (or heard it on NPR) either, so that's no help, and there is so much out there about false memories, that I'm not able to wade through the muck to find that gem.

Maybe I'll sick my daughter on this task... she absolutely loves psychological concepts like this... I bet she'd have fun tracking it down.

[–]furchfur[S] 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It is stupid of the CPS or anyone else to bring cases like this to court. If for example the woman is naked in bed with a man, if she is on top when they are having sex. If she is sending out signals that she wants sex then the case should not even be attempted to be prosecuted. From what I can make out in all these types of cases it is women changing their minds after the event and redefining in their minds as an assault.

[–]KDulius 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

CPS are under Feminist backed orders to bring basically every case, no matter how strong the bullshit smells, to court. Ironically, the UK is not totally terrible at dealing with actual fair trial in court (it's merely "really really bad") so what this is going to cause is even fewer (as a percentage) of rape cases actually get prosecuted which Feminists will then point to as just cause to get rid of the last due process protections left to men accused of rape.

It's not for nothing that Mark Peterson had to go through his ordeal

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The UK justice minister has directed the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute more cases, I think the UK was already on a 45% conviction rate and the plan is to drop it to 40%.

I agree, I can't see the benefit in bringing a case like this to court unless they have some reason to think it could be convictable.

The US has a higher conviction rate because of the very high incidence of plea bargaining against terrifying super long and cumulative sentences.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree that sending out signals about sex gives immunity from rape charges. A lap dance involves heavy sexual signals, it makes not difference to consent whether she is a stripper in a bar or a workmate in his room. Consent to a lap dance is not consent to sex, nor to sex next morning when asleep. Even if there was consent to sex at one time, it can be withdrawn at any time.

If the charge had been provable it would have been perfectly convictable.

[–]HiredMind 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

His name is ruined, hers is protected - even after we know she lied and he is innocent.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The court did not find that she she lied.

The court cleared him of all charges. Unless a court martial uses a different standard of evidence, that only means he was not found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. Courts don't find people innocent in the popular sense of the word. From that article we don't know what happened, and I suspect the court does not either. I don't see the sense in allowing a case like this into a court room in the first place.

[–]HiredMind 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The court did not find that she she lied.

Never said it did.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So, do you read minds or something?
You read mine wrong. "We" don't "know" she lied.

[–]HiredMind 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You may not, I do. I'm sure others do. Hence "we".

And with that, I'm done. Go annoy someone else.

[–]dukunt 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She sounds like a total cunt

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