GoT... so NOW they hate Ramsey Bolton (spoilers?)

ctlawguy · 2015-05-22T02:12:56+00:00

http://distractify.com/jake-heppner/never-trust-a-got-wedding?ts_pid=2 Here's some bullshit right here. Ramsey Bolton can graphically torture a man,...

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For that matter using the feminist definition of rape needed to say Ramsey raped Sansa, then Daenerys raped (or is about to rape) her selected husband. Actually Daenerys will really rape her husband, whereas Ramsay didn't rape Sansa.

Let's compare shall we? These things both happened in the same episode.

Basis for saying Ramsay "raped" Sansa?

He said "don't keep me waiting" while she was getting undressed after voluntarily marrying him. Sansa knows Ramsay cannot hurt her because the Boltons need her family name to control the North. She just had an entire scene where she says she's not afraid of this guy.

Daenerys had her future husband thrown in chains to her pet dragons. She had him watch as the dragons burned and then ate alive another prisoner, more or less at random, from among the prisoners. Then she tells him that she is going to marry him while pointing out "you're on your knees already".

So please tell me how the fuck that wont be rape when Daenerys marries him? Where the fuck is his choice --- oh wait I got it --- she's a hot chick so he can't be raped, right?

Sorry - the Daenerys / Hizdahr scene was in the previous episode.

[–]chocoboat 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Basis for saying Ramsay "raped" Sansa?

It's really disappointing how many people in this sub are trying to say what Ramsay did wasn't rape. It's no different than when feminists try to claim rapes committed by women somehow don't count as rape (because reasons), just with the genders flipped.

Ramsay is a well known torture-loving violent psychopath, and a member of the family who took part in the murder of Sansa's family. Aware that she knows this, Ramsay played a game out of intimidating her, repeatedly asking about her virginity, letting her know "you don't want to upset me, you don't want this marriage to get off to a bad start"... essentially reminding Sansa that disappointing him will mean being hunted down by Ramsay's dogs and having her throat torn out like the other girl.

Or maybe she's too valuable to kill and Ramsay needs heirs, so in that case he'll find other ways to make her life extremely unpleasant without actually killing her.

He had complete power over her, was threatening her, and she knew that saying no meant he'll be even more violent with her. Then he orders Theon to watch as he tears off her clothes and starts having sex with her.

Exactly where in this situation are you seeing two people voluntarily choose to have sex with each other? Do you seriously think Sansa wants to have sex with him there? Do you think she has any option to leave that room without sex happening first?

So please tell me how the fuck that wont be rape when Daenerys marries him?

Forcing someone into marriage is a crime, but that crime isn't rape. If she forces him to have sex with her, that will be rape. It's not complicated.

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[–]AnotherDAM 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Forcing someone into marriage is a crime

The only crime being committed here is the one of transposing modern day sensibilities onto a work of fiction with strong overtones of medieval influence.

GoT is set in a universe without modern laws. In that universe it isn't a crime to force someone to marry you (if you are a queen or at the very least a girl with three dragons and a large army). Ramsey Bolton is a character we are supposed to loathe, and I feel it safe to say that everyone here does loathe him; but by the laws of his universe no crime was committed. By our own history "noble consummations" were often witnessed so that neither party could claim otherwise later. Girls, and boys, were forced to marry people they barely knew. Even commoners often displayed the blood soaked sheet outside of the betrothal window to prove that the deed was done.

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LOL... you think it's about "being mean" and has nothing to do with her not having the option to say no?

For fuck's sake. If you break into a woman's home, put a knife to her throat and say "if you make a sound, especially if you say the word no, I will cut your throat" and then take off her clothes and have sex with her, is that what you would call "being mean, followed by completely consensual sex that we both chose to have together"?

If you think her choice to go along with the plan of a violent person threatening her life counts as consent, you really don't understand what consent is.

Would it help if you looked at it in regards to an issue other than sex? If someone holds you at gunpoint and forces you to sign a contract to sell them all of your possessions for $1, do you think that's a legally enforceable contract? Or do you think it would be thrown out as a contract signed under duress, without your actual consent?

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Your opinion here is worthless unless you can back it up.

asking about her virginity

You're an idiot. That sort of question is vital in a noble marriage where it's necessary to know who's father a child is. She was married to the Imp and he's asking if that marriage was voided because they never had sex. If they had sex then clearly the parentage of any child she has is in doubt. For the same reason (as someone else pointed out) it was not unusual for a third party to witness the wedding night sex to act as a witness that it had taken place. Usually a close relative of the bride -- in this case only Theon comes close which is also why he gave her away at the wedding.

You know nothing chocoboat!

He had complete power over her

false

was threatening her

false - she was already agreed to have sex

and she knew that saying no meant he'll be even more violent with her.

Also bullshit. Frankly I think Ramsay might be a closet bottom. Who really knows with that nutcase? It's not like anyone's tried standing up to him apart from his father.

Exactly where in this situation are you seeing two people voluntarily choose to have sex with each other?

The same places I've already repeatedly made clear. Do you have anything to say that isn't endlessly repeating irrelevant points?

Do you seriously think Sansa wants to have sex with him

Oh for fucks sake stop pretending consent means desire.

Do you think she has any option to leave that room without sex happening first?

Obviously she does. There's nothing to indicate otherwise.

Forcing someone into marriage is a crime

She volunteered.

You're pathetic. Emotion and feminist definitions of rape. Oh she must be raped because the feeeeeeeeeeels.

[–]chocoboat 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The only one getting emotional here is you. Tossing around ad hominem attacks, and assigning your own headcanon ideas to these characters. It couldn't be more clear that you're just a gender flipped version of a feminists who believe a woman can never do anything wrong, and anything she does is justified.

I mean, really? You think Ramsay's motivation was to have a witness to vouch for him? Not to further harm Theon by harming someone Theon cares about? Any kind of mental gymnastics are justified as long as you get another chance to disagree with feminists, I suppose.

she was already agreed to have sex

Literally "it's not rape if she's your wife". What an enlightened mind you have.

It's not like anyone's tried standing up to him apart from his father.

I'm sure not one of the people he killed and tortured begged him not to do it. (nevermind all of the scenes with Theon doing just that)

Do you have anything to say that isn't endlessly repeating irrelevant points?

All my points are about the issue of consent. No surprise you see consent as irrelevant, because you believe if someone's married, consent doesn't matter and all sex magically doesn't count as rape.

She volunteered.

She? Hizdahr is a he.

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[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No that's you and feminists who say that.

What marriage actually means is that you have to have sex at least once at some point or the marriage is void. Usually that means on the wedding night, although rarely it might happen later. It doesn't mean consent is always assumed between married couples (although it seems reasonable to assume it unless there some other indication).

This whole sex = marriage thing was especially in force in olden times (although it's still the law).

This is why Ramsay asks about her previous marriage. He's asking if the marriage was consumated -- or if it was a sham marriage, of no legal consequence. If she had sex then any child might not be a Bolton but a Lanister. Wars are fought over shit like this. In fact a big one just was fought over exactly this sort of question of paternity. It's serious shit.

So when Sansa marries Ramsay she is agreeing to have sex with a view to giving him an heir. This is a blood tie between the houses which Daddy Bolton needs to get the Northerners off his case for killing all the Starks.

You are imposing a ridiculous modern idea of marriage - a feminist one. The idea that Sansa would get married and then turn around and say, "But I'm not having sex" is ridiculous. That would void the marriage. It would be the same as refusing to get married so what was the point of doing that?

Given that the Imp did decide to screw around with his marriage to Sansa and did make it a fake marriage (leaving her free to get married to someone else for real) it's more important to show this marriage isn't another fake, which may be why Ramsay brings a witness from Sansa's family. This shit happened in real life.

https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140306150353AAEHqae

So it would be a huge upset and shock if the bride immediately said no to sex. But there's no indication Sansa wanted to do that. She seems to be committed to the marriage (as part of some murderous revenge kick I assume).

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So if the man turns out to like it then it doesn't matter if he consented, he's not raped?

Yeah, pretty much -- by definition, if he has truly consented he isn't being raped.

As for Sansa, for someone who wasn't being raped she sure looked uncomfortable! Even during the marriage ceremony she looked like she would rather be sucking on a dog's dick than marrying Psycho Boy! Sure, Ramsay can't kill her, but to say he can't hurt her is ludicrous -- he hurt Theon plenty without killing him. He can torture and maim the shit out of Sansa as long as he does not kill her or make her infertile and she knows it -- under those conditions she can't really refuse to marry him, hence any sexual contract that is part of that marriage is not valid. Same thing with Dany and the bloke, if he is not given any alternative and objects to marrying a good looking woman who is very rich and powerful. Maybe he's gay, maybe he's promised to someone else, maybe he prefers brunnettes, if he is given no choice, then it is rape.

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All I can tell you is that when someone says "The worst of it was happening to Theon", almost anyone would interpret that as meaning "I believe that Theon's experience of watching the rape was more unpleasant than Sansa's experience of being raped".

Rubbish. The sentence "The worst of it seems to be happening to poor Theon, just having to watch it" contains the word "seems" which refers to the way the thing was shot rather than to the actual characters. Any honest person would put that together with "When it comes to Sansa, there is a brief shot of her face and that's pretty much it" and know that i am going on about how the thing was shot. You, of course, are not an honest person, just a lying sack of shit. And the more i think about it, the more obvious it becomes that the entire scene was more about Theon's suffering than Sansa's, hence the last shot being twenty seconds of *his" suffering.

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Title	GoT... so NOW they hate Ramsey Bolton (spoilers?)
Author	ctlawguy
Upvotes	35
Comments	58
Date	May 22, 2015 2:12 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/36tw5g/got_so_now_they_hate_ramsey_bolton_spoilers/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/got-so-now-they-hate-ramsey-bolton-spoilers.979595 https://theredarchive.com/post/979595

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