Merry Christmas to my fellow MRA's, redpillers, and MGTOWs!

[deleted] · 2014-12-25T00:50:46+00:00

Happy holidays to all who celebrate these holidays. I started to take the red pill last March, and I've learned a ton as I've stayed and learned...

[–]Scimitar66 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]notnotnotfred 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]timoppenheimer 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Scimitar66 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]das_masterful 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Merry Christmas.

I can't see why you'd link TRP/redpillers with MRA. There's a fundamental difference that I don't believe you understand fully. Redpillers seem to want to be pick-up artists that use women as tools for masturbation. I don't believe that is true of MRAs at all. The MRA movement started, from what I've read, to be in reaction to the imbalances and discrimination when it comes to divorce, and child custody after divorce in the USA.

It later became apparent that MRA was a front for many other things such as sexism and sex-based discrimination such as not letting adult males sit next to unrelated, unaccompanied minors on aircraft, the gender pay gap.

In my books, equating MRAs with redpillers is like comparing apples and oranges - they're both fruit, but have completely different flavours.

[+][deleted] 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]notIsugarpie -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Here's why I respect the RP:

I've been learning about it a lot for the past month and a half, or so. I haven't gotten very far into it because of work, but what I've learned so far has been very beneficial. Specifically, RP gave me something that I never thought I'd ever get during my life. It was something so precious, and so important, that I didn't even know how badly I wanted this until RP gave it to me. I'm a rational person, I believe in logic. I studied mathematics in college, and I work as an engineer. I was a geek when I was young, and I never really tried to fit in or be cool. I always had plenty of other geeks to be friends with, so I was never lonely (I live in the silicon valley, where we have more trekkies per capita than any other place on earth!) however, I was also turned down by every girl I ever made a move on, despite not being ugly or overweight.

I don't scorn women for my lack of success, all I really wanted, my entire life, was an explanation. I wanted an answer to "why do you think I'm not worth it?" I wasn't angry, or upset, I was just puzzled. I did all the things you're supposed to do (hold open doors, buy flowers), and it never worked. I wanted to know what was wrong with me, what about me, in particular, did you find objectionable? I asked several girls this, and all I got were platitudes. I never thought they were telling me the truth, and all I wanted was the truth. Without information, there is no way for us to learn and to grow, to change and to adapt.

RP was what I always figured men would do at some point given the ability to connect with billions of other men all around the world: develop a theory as to why women say no, develop an explanation and develop techniques to improve your odds. One of the things I really do like about RP is that gives you an explanation that I, as a rational being, can believe, because RP speaks the language I was taught.

This gets to a big failing of feminism. Feminism is hugely illogical and irrational, because of who feminism considers to the prime mover or discrimination (ie, the "big bad"): patriarchy. Feminism is fueled by a belief in what Hilary Clinton would call "the vast right-wing conspiracy". Feminism is the x-files of gender relations, complete with its own smoke filled room. Unfortunately, there is no giant conspiracy, because the amount of effort required to maintain such a conspiracy is far greater than the benefit derived from the conspiracy. The cost greatly outweighs the benefits. This is feminism's fundamental flaw. Patriarchy, if it were a real thing, would collapse overnight, because it would simply require too much energy to maintain.

What I like about RP is that the prime mover of why women say no is not a giant smoke filled room of women who decide "okay, this guy gets a wife, but this other guy? Eww, gross". The prime mover of RP is natural selection. It is not a social construct, like the patriarchy, it is a biological fact of the natural world, it is evolution. RP highlights the differences between what women think it is socially proper to say they want (ie, the social constructs) and what biology makes them actually want (ie, evolution). If you want to get a date, appealing to the social construct (hold open the door, buy flowers, find common interests, be polite and courteous, etc) is a loser strategy. That's what I'd been doing my entire life. To make progress, you have to ignore the social constructs and go straight after the imperatives that are biologically hardwired into women. I haven't learned enough RP yet to field test it, but I plan to sometime next year. I hope it produces better results than I've gotten so far in my life, and I figure I have nothing to lose, at this point.

[–]InBaggingArea 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]notIsugarpie 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

because the logic, fundamentally, fits my worldview. I'm a scientist, to the core, and RP gives me an explanation that is not based upon a social construct, or a smoke filled room, but is based upon biology. Yes, there is confirmation bias there, but we're all more apt to believe explanation that's resonate with our own worldview, right? Truthiness, as a default mental mechanism, is not a bad place to start, provided you are not oblivious to facts that come later.

Again, at this point, I'm not sure RP is "right", as a scientist, I can't say off-hand until its field tested. Experimentation is the heart and soul of science. It is the crucible in which we burn away irreleancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth (Yes, that was a quote from "the measure of a man", thank you, again, like I said, more trekkies per capita than anyplace else on earth!) However, what I can say is that RP has given me an explanation for my inability to connect with women that, for the first time in my life, provided a level of clarity I had never experienced before. I might not have field tested RP yet, but I have field tested being turned down, over and over again, and I have plenty of experiences with that. I was surprised, when I read RP, how many of the "mistakes" they warned of were things I had done all my life. That was how RP gained some credibility with me (at least enough so that I read more of it); I had spent a lifetime doing the things they say not to do, and getting the results they said I would get if I did the things they said not to do. They also provided explanations as to why what they said not to do would result in rejections. Based on my experiences, the theory seemed to hold water. It is obviously not an endorsement that their techniques for getting a yes will work too, but it at least means that their rationales for why I was doing the wrong thing have the ring of truth. That might not seem like much, but it was more than any other theory I had ever read of was able to get me.

[–]timoppenheimer -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FallingSnowAngel -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]notIsugarpie 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually, I think its an odd point that was made, because I don't believe feminists think of patriarchy as a vast male conspiracy going back to the beginnings of mankind. I use the word "patriarchy" to mean exactly what feminism defines it to mean. Rotterdam pretty much indicated that not only do feminists not care about history (aside from using it to "get even") but that they don't care about the overwhelming majority of the world as it is today. Patriarchy is not a historical/most of the world issue, feminists have given it an extremely narrow scope. Just because I indicated that patriarchy, the way feminists define it (which is the context I meant to use the word in) would cost more to implement than the benefits it would produce, doesn't mean that a similar social schema couldn't be implemented in most of the world today (which feminism doesn't care about) and produce far more benefits at a much lower cost.

There is no question that women are oppressed in much of the world today. The ISIS war brides are experiencing real oppression. That is a situation in which patriarchy is dirt cheap to implement and yields enormous benefits. In those situations, obviously, the oppression is very real. Girls and boys who were kidnapped by Boko Haram are experiencing real oppression, because the Nigerian government is unable to stop them from doing whatever Boko Haram wants. Rotterdam is real oppression. Guess what? Feminism doesn't talk about any of that, because feminism doesn't care.

Feminism is middle, upper middle and upper class white, educated first world, western women deciding that they are oppressed and that the source of their oppression (ie, what they mean by the patriarchy, as they define it) is white, middle, upper middle, and upper class educated, first world, western men. Feminism doesn't care about:

-the second and third world(where Boko Haram and ISIS are)

-the non-western world (how many chinese parents abort daughters in favor of having sons? Feminism doesn't care about this clear gender bias.)

-the poor (you never hear about how insulting it is that women in fast food jobs aren't paid enough to feed their children. Feminism doesn't care about this. When feminism says "equal pay for equal work", it doesn't mean for poor women, it means for the "good" jobs)

-non-white (Rotterdam)

-non-educated (feminism cares about rape on college campuses, but for college aged women, who don't attend college, but are more likely to be raped, on average, then their peers who went to college? Fuck them, feminism is silent)

The grand irony of feminism is that is patriarchy and there is oppression of women in the world today, its just the scope of their definition is so narrow that they are looking for discrimination in the one place (the educated, wealthy, white, western world) where patriarchy is a loser, as far as cost benefit goes, and they completely ignore it in the parts of the world where the cost benefit makes oppression viable.

Feminism is the person who kicks a dead horse, in a field with plenty of live horses, over and over again, and then, someone comes by and says "stop kicking that dead horse, when there are plenty of live horses to kick", and the person kicking the horse replies "aha, your pointing out the horse is dead is proof that the horse is still alive and still needs to be kicked."

[–]chavelah 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]notIsugarpie 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

just wanted to touch on the misogyny angle really quick. The fundamental problem men's rights seems to have with RP is misogyny. the fundamental problem Mgtow has with RP is "those guys build their lives around women". Men's Rights is trying for mainstream acceptance, and separating from RP is a crucial part of establishing the credibility factor for men's rights. Nothing destroys a male movement in the public eye faster than misogyny.

Having read the RP forums, yes, there is misogyny, and a lot of it. If you read the post about the stages of RP on their reddit forum, one of those stages is anger. I think this is where a lot of the misogyny comes from, the anger stage, the frustrated men slip into and out of all the time. RP gives them a place to vent, without fear of being banned and ridiculed for doing so. Yes, it is gross, it is also, according to most RP strategy, counter-productive to RP.

I read through Rollo Tomassi's the rational male, and he spent, in that book, an entire chapter that could be read as "why misogyny is stupid and has no place in RP". If you get turned down, over and over, for dates (like I've been), then the truth is that you're not being turned down by the matriarchy. You're not being turned down by a smoke filled room of women. You're not even being turned by dominant female social constructs. What you're really being rejected by is evolution. Its the same with women, if you desperately want a man, but can't get one no matter what you do, that's not patriarchy, that's evolution.

I always felt, deep down in my soul, that this was true. I never crossed into misogyny because my reasoning was "the more women say no to me, the more likely it is that the problem with my continuing to ask is not that they continue to say no, but that I continue to ask, ie, the problem is on my end, not their's". If 25 different women say that don't want to go on a date with me, or to hook up, that means the odds that the problem is on my end are 25/26th (ie, 25 "nos" divided by total opinions, the twenty five women + one opinion, mine) The more "nos" I get, the higher this probability becomes. At some point, this becomes more than about how individual women perceive me, and it becomes about how natural selection sees me as unfit. As Tomassi said, in a whole chapter, female hypergamey (ie, female natural selection preference) does not discriminate. it does not feel. It does not care. It just is, and you have to know that it is an emotion-less feature of nature (to be clear, this isn't simply true of human females, this is true of both genders of every single species on the face of the earth). If this is true, then the anger stage of RP is pointless. There's as much sense in engaging in misogyny as there is in railing against a storm. Sure, you might feel a little better, but at the end of the day, you have just engaged in an utterly pointless activity.

[–]timoppenheimer -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I enjoy their field reports and I appreciate it as a male space where men can talk freely about dating, no matter how repugnant the discussion becomes. Nothing is so vile as to be dismissed purely for its objectionable nature. Instead, TRP discusses things based on their validity in the lives of the users.

As a scientist, I'm all about coming up for models that aim to explain life. TRP is all about modelling the dating world. I may not like their models, and I may think that other models are better, but I appreciate a place where models of social behavior are discussed.

Also, I like that there are places where men are figuring out strategies for the benefit of men. I view TRP as a male space equivalent to every article ever written for women on the topic of "how to find a husband" or whatever nonsense is between the covers of Cosmo. It makes me a little uncomfortable, but it's probably good that such a space exists.

Does this make sense to you? What do you think of all of this, and what are your thoughts on TRP?

[–]MRSPArchiver 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Merry Christmas to my fellow MRA's, redpillers, and MGTOWs!
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	17
Date	December 25, 2014 12:50 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2qbrab/merry_christmas_to_my_fellow_mras_redpillers_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/merry-christmas-to-my-fellow-mras-redpillers-and.991714 https://theredarchive.com/post/991714

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