I'm asking this question seriously and not trying to play "gotcha" and throw strawmen at you. I'm genuinely curious about this.
In the past, I was guilty of being the guy espousing the very logic in my post title, but I was much younger and politically blind. Over time, as I matured, became more politically aware, and had more women in my life I started to understand their plight a bit more. I started to walk back on seeing everything "women's only" as unfair because I realized there was a lot of things geared toward men or men dominating co-ed spaces and shutting the women out (be it intentionally or not).
An example I remember from younger was the advent of the all-female gym, Curves. I can understand why women don't want to be around men in a place where they're working on their bodies, potentially wearing revealing clothing, etc. because they will feel judged and creeped on. However, my skewed understanding is that if an explicitly male-only gym was created, this would cause some backlash, lambasted in the media, and could potentially get shut down. Now, I could be completely wrong in that assumption because I'm going on sensationalist examples from the media throughout time that might not actually be the case. Maybe for every all-male space that gets dragged in the public, there's 10,000 that operate unabated. Historically, any time I've been in a room full of men who wanted to do "men things", the conversation typically involves into disparaging women and people who aren't white/American, so I don't totally eyeroll at women thinking these spaces are inherently toxic, because my experience as a man in said spaces fits the mold.
My question to you is this, if indeed men wanted to have a public space to be explicitly all-male (as in advertised as such), will that ever be allowed without it getting dragged and shut down? Or is the assumption always going to be that the men doing it are up to no good and need to be removed? Conversely, is this just a wacky media stereotype and women in general don't really care if men have their little clubhouses to themselves as long as they aren't using it as a means to harm others?
(Personally, IDGAF if I have an all-male space to be a part of, so I'm not here to whine about it. The thought occurred to me more if men are just flailing in all directions when they make the "Imagine if men..." arguments, or is there actual validity to it?)
[–]MrPointy1630 12 points13 points14 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Personally I don’t see any issue with male/female only spaces. I do however, and some of the comments in that post confirm it, feel like a female only space is assumed as an escape from men and a male only space is to intentionally exclude women, like there’s an assumed victim or harasser mentality as opposed to it simply being male/female only for any other reason. It’s also often assumed that places that are majority male or female might be excluding the opposite gender where in reality it might just not be a hobby or environment that is appealing to the other gender. Someone in the post mentioned car clubs. I’m not a car guy myself but I have other hobbies that are predominantly male and I can say for myself and those I associate with everyone is welcome, it’s just not usually something women go for, an example being comic shops or D&D groups (I’m not saying women don’t participate in those hobbies I’ve just seen it being majority male). The few times I’ve had female members in these groups it’s been great because it’s just about everyone coming together for a hobby they love. Are there toxic spaces? 100% but it goes both ways, every space has its group of bad eggs both male and female (the gym being one of them especially in this era of gym influencers recording everything and assuming anyone who looks their way or passes them is harassing them). I’m a straight guy who loves getting his nails done but the amount of dirty looks I get are crazy, like I’m harassing the women in there by encroaching on their space. Not every woman in there of course and it’s not every time, but often enough. I can’t speak for everyone but personally I’d love to see more people being able to do things they love and enjoy, whether that be together or in privatized environments, just don’t be a dick, life is too short to exclude people from things they love.
[–]Tevorino 8 points9 points10 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, I care about whether or not there are spaces where I can only be around other men. I host the occasional game night where I normally welcome both men and women, and I've noticed that even the most masculine-behaving woman changes the "energy" of the whole thing compared to when only men attend, in that everyone else feels the need to adjust how they speak to avoid making her uncomfortable (which we want to avoid because we all respect each other). There are plenty of reasons for men to want to have a "lad's night" that don't involve any kind of negative attitude towards women, just as there are plenty of reasons for women to want their own gatherings that don't involve any kind of negative attitude towards men.
One of the heavily-upvoted comments on the askfeminists thread bothers me. To quote the first part of it:
There's an assumption here that deals/policy/jobs are not discussed in private women's spaces. My girlfriend, among others, have confirmed that such things absolutely do get discussed there. I also don't really see this as much of a problem, as long as the actual decisions on public policy get made in their proper place i.e. Parliament which is open to the public. Yet, this is being used as an excuse to open up men's clubs, and only men's clubs.
[–]Agile_Scale1913 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
A bunch of feminist-minded people talking about the apex fallacy again. 'Certain exclusive organisations people only by super-rich men exist, therefore men aren't allowed men-only spaces and the boys' scouts has to let girls in'.
What a load of bollocks.
These women just want to prevent men being able to talk to other men without women being present. It's all about wanting to control men.
[–]YetAgain67 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Gotta love how a very basic and valid counterargument is always dismissed as a "gotcha" or a fallacy."
It's such a cowardly, weaselly way to not engage in confronting your own bullshit. Don't like someone poking holes in your logic? Just say they're pulling a "gotcha" or "whataboutism" or "fallacy."