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Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns launches legal action

ElderApe · 2019-10-03T00:42:51+00:00

Crosspost "Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student's pronouns sues school" from /r/FeMRADebates:Posted by greenapplegirl | 2...

ElderApe

October 3, 2019

0 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns launches legal action
Author	ElderApe
Upvotes	0
Comments	29
Date	October 3, 2019 12:42 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/dcjg5d/teacher_fired_for_refusing_to_use_transgender/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-use-transgender.1064475 https://theredarchive.com/post/1064475

Comments

[–]spudmixMachine Rights Activist 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

While I agree the teacher came to some kind of compromise, I don't think it's enough. Refusing to use third-person pronouns for a particular student isn't something a bunch of kids are going to miss, and every time it happens it'll be a reminder to everyone present that the teacher is making an ideological stand against a particular student's lifestyle

Same can be said about using the opposite pronouns to the person's biology. Either way you are reaffirming your beliefs. The question to me is whose beliefs are you allowed to affirm. I think is ridiculous that people on the left refuse to come to any kind of compromise here, believing that they should have control over the utterances of others to support what they believe. That is a dangerous precedent.

Much as a therapist who refused to use a patient's preferred pronouns would be unsuitable for that position

Up to the patient. If you don't like it go somewhere else. But you shouldn't try to get them fired.

a teacher who refuses to follow the guidelines as laid out by medical and psychological consensus

There is less consensus than you think. Especially with kids. Look at the detransition rate among trans kids, it is astoundingly high.

[–]spudmixMachine Rights Activist 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think is ridiculous that people on the left refuse to come to any kind of compromise here, believing that they should have control over the utterances of others to support what they believe. That is a dangerous precedent.

Medicine is not politics. Teachers have an imperative to follow medical guidelines for the betterment of their students' lives. The APA calls for transgender folks to be addressed by their preferred pronouns. Unless there is an opposing, academically credible medical or psychological body of opinion (I'm fairly sure there isn't) then that's the best science we have. This has nothing to do with America's arbitrary left/right divide.

There is less consensus than you think. Especially with kids. Look at the detransition rate among trans kids, it is astoundingly high.

Show me the opposition to the APA then. If an opposing opinion of equal or greater weight exists, I haven't seen it. I'd also like you to explain how any amount of detransition would mean that we should ignore people's preferred pronouns if you don't mind - I'm not seeing the link.

[–]ElderApe[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Medicine is not politics.

How we are able to refer to people is political. And medicine is quite often political. Not that I am convinced this is right way to treat trans people.

Teachers have an imperative to follow medical guidelines for the betterment of their students' lives.

No they don't. They have a duty of care to ensure that they are not causing harm. For example, if your kid has a mental illness they don't have to change how they teach to accommodate that. Generally we allow them to teach and remove the mentally ill person who needs special treatment. You can't separate yourself by asking for different pronouns and then claim you don't want to be different. You are the person who wanted special treatment in the first place.

I'd also like you to explain how any amount of detransition would mean that we should ignore people's preferred pronouns if you don't mind - I'm not seeing the link.

That wasn't my point. It was that self identification for kids is shaky at best. Just because a kid says they are trans doesn't mean they are and re-enforcing an identity that isn't there can be harmful.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Egalitarianwhistle 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kreeps_United 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kreeps_United 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kreeps_United 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IronGentry 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IronGentry 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]spudmixMachine Rights Activist 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]funnystor 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kreeps_United 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

There are things teachers cannot say. That is different from having compelled speech, which would be mandating that teaches have to say specific things, in specific ways, especially that has nothing to do with the content of the class. Like if your teacher had to say they liked coca-cola, instead of just not swearing. I seriously don't know how and why people confuse this. It is not complicated.

> What you're asking is for personal prejudice to be protected when working with kids.

Not at all. I'd be happy to get rid of teachers who encourage kids to identify as trans. That particular prejudice I am all against, given the astronomically high de-transition rates for kids. I just don't think that calling people by gender neutral pronouns is a big deal. In fact all the trans people I know are fine with this as a compromise solution. I think people who want to push hard on this either misunderstand how identity works or have ulterior motives involving power.

[–]Kreeps_United 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ElderApe[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kreeps_United 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That is just something unacceptable to encourage in children, like encouraging them to play with fire.

And what high school teachers are encouraging teens to transition? Why would you think that's happening? What made you think this was a widespread problem?

Because I have to wait 10 minutes between replies, I'll reply to your other post here:

Well at least you aren't pretend to be interesting in asking questions or having a conversation anymore.

Where did you get that? My question was why, especially if you're socially left wing.

If you think everybody who is left wing has to be on board with every single social cause of the left I am surprised you are here.

I think left wingers believing in left wing social causes should be the norm. Not only that, it always perplexed me when I saw so many claiming to be male advocates disregard other causes and then not get why they were taken seriously. It made sense why right wingers would, then they get to say the only discrimination is discrimination against white men. I'm not sure how anyone on the left would do it and then expect to be taken seriously.

It's not a feminist sub after all.

I don't identify as feminist, I still support feminist causes because freedom for specific groups isn't really freedom.

[–]ElderApe[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And what high school teachers are encouraging teens to transition?

Heaps, I've met many personally. But it isn't just the teachers but the programs that activists push through that encourage an unscientific understanding of gender. Basically telling kids there are million gender and they can pick whatever one they want. Without any of the information about how these identifications end with people changing their minds as adults.

Where did you get that?

The first words out of your mouth were not to talk about the issue but accuse me of one of these thought crimes. Next you will be saying I'm a misogynist for supporting men's rights.

you're socially left wing.

No no no. I'm a social liberal. I am a liberal who believes that a classically liberal, capitalist system leaves too many people falling through the cracks of society, so we need social programs to counteract that. The term socially left wing doesn't mean shit to me.

I think left wingers believing in left wing social causes should be the norm

Who decides what that norm is? Is identifying as a feminist part of that norm? Why or why not?

Not only that, it always perplexed me when I saw so many claiming to be male advocates disregard other causes and then not get why they were taken seriously

This is really funny and ironic to me. Because imo the left see's male advocates as basically misogynist losers who hold their political opinions out of hate. There is no reason to need to support men to them. Just like there is no reason to support the plight of those who have de-transitioned and get their warning out to wider society; to them. To me there is no one set of 'other causes' and if there was men's rights wouldn't be included, just like 'white rights' wouldn't be. They are all seen as oppositional to the people who we are supposed to care about. Women, non-whites, LGBT etc.

The issue to me is that instead of talking about universal principles and rights, we talk about group rights. To me that is just the wrong way to look at it.

I don't identify as feminist, I still support feminist causes because freedom for specific groups isn't really freedom.

Do you support affirmative action? How about presumptive 50/50 childcare in family courts? There are areas where you can't support feminist causes and be a male advocate at the same time.

Crosspost "Teacher fired for refusing to use transgender student’s pronouns sues school" from /r/FeMRADebates:

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