We cannot only criticize red-haired feminists

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2019-08-08T10:53:01+00:00

I'll make a little compendium here of the various points I've been repeating.

1.) you're trying to discount an entire publication due to a few articles by a few shitty people.

and you seem to be doing this because people are linking to these sites, because they have legitimately relevant articles. arguments to ideological purity and genetic fallacies don't have any reasonable place in discussions about men's issues that want to actually get anywhere

we aren't a cult. and we have nowhere near the size to establish an effective boycott. Even if we did what would be the point of it? We rally together and get two articles on some website removed?

2.) As I reposted from /u/magus678

Just right now on the front page there are posts that seem to be little more than takedowns of characters the OP doesn't like.

The first is a radfem that is only being brought up in an interest to poison publications the OP doesn't approve of, and the second and third being brought up I guess to remind people that they aren't passing the purity test the OP has decided everyone needs to be abiding by.

Its devoid of any meaningful critique. They weren't in the news, they weren't in previous discussion. It was simply important for the OP to make sure everyone knew who the proper people to like/dislike were. That kind of posting just lacks substance and I'd like to see less of it.

And finally.

3.) Even if we take this all. and ignore it. Your criticisms are still very weak.

In several I've seen you make you take ridiculous logical leaps that outright ignore context and realism.

Any insight stating that Yes, men are stronger on average than women. Yes, Men can be violent. Yes, There have been some times where men were shitty to women. This does not mean men lived lives of privilege, peaches and cream. But they are no less met with accusations of misandry. Overuse of the term weakens it.

All but a select few had it relatively shitty for most of history.

Pointing the shittier sides of men out isn't misandry. just like pointing out the shittier sides of women isn't misogyny.

Lastly.

Vast majority of anti-feminist articles out there criticize feminism for one of these reasons, which, as I noted, have nothing to do with men, and many of them are actually quite misandric. This goes for publications across the entire political spectrum.

where have these been posted in this sub?

Because it seems that the entire purpose of this argument is to say that since "some of the articles that criticize feminism are misandric or irrelevant in my opinion so that means all articles that criticize feminism are misandric and/or irrelevant."

Leinadro · 2019-08-08T13:04:11+00:00

4)Look at how feminists do things. Feminists don't just criticize the radical MRAs and hard traditionalists, who are the furthest away from feminists in their belifs. Indeed, feminists rarely bother with MRAs and tradcons. Instead, feminists have always gone straight for the center, for the mainstream. Feminists criticize (supposed) sexism of ordinary people, of typical centrist liberals, of most people out there, of society in general. They don't bother with extremes. And, guess what, it works.

I wouldn't say they don't bother with extremes but more that those who dare to disagree with them too much or too loudy are dismissed as an extremist. And as for rarely bother with MRAs and tradcons I have to disagree a bit there as well considering that when a high profile event happens articles that are little more than hit pieces against "MRAs" (which is usually a combined mass of MRAs, incels, PUAs, white nationalists, white supremacists, republicans, and anything else the writer in question deems bad in regards to gender).

Now I will agree that the criticism of feminism can get out of hand at times. MRAs are the underdogs of the gender discourse and the fact that they focus on bettering men in a way that's not centered around women which means they have an uphill battle at best. But one thing I've noticed is this. Even the most clear concise specific criticism of feminism is often written off as just "antifeminism" and/or "desire to harm women".

Feminists criticize (supposed) sexism of ordinary people, of typical centrist liberals, of most people out there, of society in general. They don't bother with extremes. And, guess what, it works.

Bare in mind that when they do this they are doing it on behalf of women. Pointing out the sexism against men of ordinary people is quite different than pointing out the sexism against women of ordinary people. And the reason "it works" for feminism is because a lot of that criticizing sexism against women of ordinary people was done by imposing a lot of baggage on men. Assumptions and declarations of male privilege that still persist even if the reality doesn't match. "It worked" for for feminism because a big part of the work for women involved smearing, misrepresenting, and occasionally outright lying about the status and position of men. Presumptions of good faith on the part of women (ie when women do something bad its because something made them do it but when men do something bad they are active participants) don't help either. "It worked" because deep down people care for women on a level that they simply don't care for men.

Simply put the MRM can't just copy what feminism did for women and then do it for men. In fact I think part of the problem with the MRM is that it sees the bad shit feminism does, sees that it works, and then copies it.

serpentineeyelash · 2019-08-08T14:23:44+00:00

I agree with your main point. It makes sense to criticize anyone who is saying misandrist things, regardless of whether or not that person is a feminist.

It's kinda cowardly to only criticize the crazy feminists.

I don't agree that it's cowardly to only criticize feminists. Speaking from personal experience, I have to summon far more courage to criticise feminists than to criticize centrists and right-wingers. Criticizing right-wingers is socially acceptable and in half of society it wins brownie points. Criticizing centrists is sometimes viewed as weird but not necessarily harmful. Criticizing feminists is often not allowed in polite society and I fear severe social consequences from doing so. The most extreme feminists might be few in number but they seem to have a great deal of social and institutional power over the moderate centrists.

"feminism is silly, stupid, crazy, deluded and dumb" (so what?)

This does have some relevance to male issues. If the ideological framework of feminism can be shown to be irrational or deeply flawed, then that weakens the case for whatever feminists try to impose on males.

But yeah I agree that the other criticisms you list are largely wrong and irrelevant or damaging to men's rights.

Instead, feminists have always gone straight for the center, for the mainstream. Feminists criticize (supposed) sexism of ordinary people, of typical centrist liberals, of most people out there, of society in general. They don't bother with extremes. And, guess what, it works.

I agree that we should criticize the mainstream. But as u/Leinadro points out below, the rhetoric that worked for feminists won't necessarily work for us. Condemning someone as a misogynist can get them ostracised. Condemning someone as a misandrist just gets you laughed at.

MarsNirgal · 2019-08-08T12:36:58+00:00

Why should opposition to feminism only be valid if it has to do with men?

I would say that it would actually be less legitimate than any honest criticism of feminism that tries to find and correct intrinsecal problems within it.

heimdahl81 · 2019-08-08T22:23:01+00:00

I think we would be best served to stick to 3 points regarding feminism.

1) No sociopolotical movement is infallible nor incorruptable, including feminism.

2) Criticizing feminism is not the same as criticizing women. Not calling yourself feminist does not automatically mean you are a misogynist.

3) Feminists do not have the sole right to develop valid gender theory.

EvenLimit · 2019-08-08T18:08:29+00:00

Look at how feminists do things. Feminists don't just criticize the radical MRAs and hard traditionalists, who are the furthest away from feminists in their belifs. Indeed, feminists rarely bother with MRAs and tradcons. Instead, feminists have always gone straight for the center, for the mainstream. Feminists criticize (supposed) sexism of ordinary people, of typical centrist liberals, of most people out there, of society in general. They don't bother with extremes. And, guess what, it works.

They do go after the extremes, see their attacks on Trump who to certain extent is an extremist on the right. More so feminists primary go after white men, not the mainstream or what have you but white men. White men are the sole enemy of feminism.

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