Hopefully not a repost

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The "old" ways only "worked" because of the difference in the times. Women were taught that chastity was important. Men would marry virgins. If the women slept around and cheated on the man, she would be stoned to death and killed or she would be given a "black mark" from society. She would be kicked from her home (and lose her resources) without the ability to work the hard jobs at the time (which a man could), so it would be basically a living death sentence.

Women needed the penalties for cheating and non-chastity to be that extreme, to risk losing life, in order to not do it. Otherwise their biological nature would just make them move from guy to guy.

Now days jobs are easy enough that women can support themselves. They are taught that they need to spend their teens and 20s "finding themselves" and "gaining experience" (riding the cock carousel) and that they are a strong empowered woman if they don't clean, don't cook, if they sleep around and if they "don't need no man." Instead of shamed now "empowered" to do so. And the laws favour them to the extreme.

So no longer is it any risk in play pushing them to perform the tradcon role a woman used to serve. So the true nature of women takes hold and makes relationships a shit deal at best for the man. There are no consequences to keep them in line, and they are put on a pedestal no matter how shitty they are.

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Of course, very few, if any, women have ever said all of this to a man upon meeting them

It's called hyperbole. To make a point.

And while yes it is technically possible that she is able and willing to hire a cook and maid, this is so statistically unlikely that it may as well never happen. The vast VAST majority of people full stop don't have the wealth to have hired hands do 100% of their cooking and cleaning. Now fair enough a lot of people never cook and just eat out all the time, but we are still dealing with a very unlikely scenario.

What's "possible" isn't relevant. What's "probable" is far more so. Because that which is possible, but not probable, isn't representative of our society. And this comic IS representative. There is a surge of women eschewing their traditional gender roles, and yet still holding men to theirs. Women who continue to expect their men to contribute more to the relationship than they themselves are willing to contribute in return. And then they wonder where all the "good men" have gone.

[–]thedjmk-4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]jonathino0018 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The evidence is in the behavior of women on social media in recent years. Saying I can't provide evidence is like telling me I can't provide oxygen. We're literally surrounded by it, I don't have to provide something that's already EVERYWHERE, freely available to see at any time.

My premises are very simple:

1) There are a large number of women in recent years who say things like "Where have all the good men gone?" on social media.

2) There are a large number of women in recent years who choose to eschew their gender roles in a relationship.

3) For the most part men are still expected to adhere to their traditional gender role.

If you agree with each of those premises, then you have no grounds to disagree with me on the basis of evidence. You can still disagree with me based on the deductions I make based on those premises, but you didn't make that argument. You argued that I had no evidence.

Doesn't your philosophy support a primarily male dominated society?

Now you're the one making assumptions. MGTOW simply means "men going their own way". While it is true that there are many MGTOW that also hold that kind of philosophy, it isn't necessary to be a MGTOW. Therefore assuming that I believe in any kind of philosophy beyond that is intellectually lazy. When engaging in a conversation like this, you need to ask me what I believe on any given topic, not assume I believe something based on the stereotype you have of MGTOW.

I don't know what you mean by "support a primarily male dominated society". What I believe in is a meritocracy. People should be rewarded for their merits only. If an individual woman proves she has the ability to perform a male dominated role, then she should be allowed to have the position, but she should not be given lower standards just to fill a quota. I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

And aren't males the bulk of politicians, CEO's, and wealth holders?

Typical SJW "power" bullshit... Power isn't as simple as saying "this group has it and this group doesn't", it's more complicated than that. While men have power in politics and business, women have power in relationships. The extreme bias towards women in court is proof of this. A huge number of men on this sub can testify to the overwhelming legal power a woman has over a man in a relationship.

If you combine that with the biological natures of men and women, and it isn't hard to understand how women are holding men to these standards. If you want to know more there are plenty of resources out there, just look up "hypergamy". There are red pilled folks far better at explaining it than me.

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[–]thedjmk-4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

Well, no.

AA is about an honest, inward look at oneself and making amends for poor choices. In fact, AA doesn't allow you to blame others for any of the ills in your life.

MGTOW is about blaming women for every ill in society and taking no responsibility for your own choices, whatsoever. There isn't a post here where any of you take an apportionment of responsibility for your choices in life. Which is unfortunate because otherwise, the idea of going your own way is rather appealing.

But you don't do that. You're spending all your time on Reddit, bemoaning woman. That's not going your own way at all.

As you then demonstrate in the next paragraph. Women are not a monolith, so no, it's not a perfect representation of anything. Some women may be terrible, sure, just like some men. But you spend all your time engaging in this circle jerk that tells you you're all special, different snowflakes who are victim of all women who all think the same.

You can't honestly accept this as reality.

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[–]omg_ppl_are_stupid11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You obviously don't know what MGTOW is about, nor do you know about AA either. AA is a process about acknowledging your addiction, where.... your addiction is highly talked about for the beginning.... So it is talked about... alot.... the problem...

MGTOW doesn't blame women, we blame society... we hate MEN just as much as women, infact we probably hate simp behavioral men more than women. Many many MEN contribute to the societal problems that we see and we are choosing the opt out of the societal norms and expectations. We are going our own way....... it's our choice IN REAL LIFE, not reddit life, to do what we want. If something bugs us about society we wish to come here, on MGTOW, to vent it out. It's our place with somewhat like minded people to talk about the societal issues that bug us.

Where we disagree is that women are a monolith... as are men.... MGTOW is an outside perspective looking at the world and saying, no we won't accept this, and we don't have the numbers to change it.... so we're out... forget it we don't need you.

Yes, we sit in our circle jerk... it's ours... what's it to you??? WHY do you have a problem with us sitting over here, MINDING OUR OWN BUSINESS. That's right..... because you represent that part of society that wants us to conform, to go back to plantation... back to the matrix.... back to what you want us to be, you don't like that we disagree with you, so you have to come in here and say shit. To be fair many MGTOW go in other subreddits and start shit as well. I fucking hate that, i think it's stupid. Just as you being in this subreddit, it doesn't make sense.

[–]thedjmk-2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm pretty familiar with AA, and yes, you talk about your problems. You don't externalize the blame for them, which is what you're doing here.

Yes, you do hate men as much as women - because you see them as victims of women. It's an odd hill to die on, but to each their own.

Your Reddit life is your real life. For most of you, it's the bulk of your lives. Let's also not pretend this nonsense doesn't bleed into your real life personality. I've met several of you, and you're not bifurcating the way you think you are.

So you believe women - and men - are a monolith?

I don't want you to go back to any matrix, lol. I want to understand why it's so easy for you to cast aside any and all nuance in order to paint a picture that suits your bias.

You're not going your own way, and you're certainly not minding your own business by creating public subreddits for it. You're quite literally inviting public conversation. You can't have that both ways.

[–]omg_ppl_are_stupid8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"Yes, you do hate men as much as women - because you see them as victims of women. It's an odd hill to die on, but to each their own."

WRONG!!!! We DO NOT SEE IT THIS WAY! You're assumptions have shown you still don't understand MGTOW. We do not hate men because they are victims of women, but because they will defend women who have done something morally wrong! IE. Women starts beating up man.... men stand aside.... man starts to defend himeself.... men standing around now go to defend the girl and beat up the man who defended himself. THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!

NO my reddit life isn't my real life.... WHY? because you don't know my identity and my behavior is very very different in my real life because i have to work apart of this shitty system to survive ... you've met a few of us.... really? actual MGTOW, and they told you.... i'm honestly shocked.

Cast aside any and all nuance.... why can you truly cast aside any nuance that paints your picture? You have a picture that you have painted in your mind.. and trust me... you've cast away plenty of nuance... the difference is... I don't come to a subreddit that you subscribe to... telling you how to think.

Please tell me how i would have found MGTOW if we were 100% a private subreddit locked down. It would only be word of mouth... and the first rule of fight club, is don't talk about fight club. That's why it's a public subreddit.

[–]thedjmk-3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is an interesting assertion. So men are only bad if they stand behind women in situations in which you disagree with the woman's actions?

Wouldn't your exact example be a situation in which those men are victims of a gynocentric society, which is directly the fault of women? Making them...victims of women?

Clarify this for me?

This is true, I don't personally know you. From everything I've seen here and in real life, however, both in terms of your people and society, it's not exactly an unreasonable inference.

By that logic, however, you can't use screenshots as proof of women's behavior, since they can present the same defense you do - yet you do, and with the assertion of validity. The whole sub does, and ascribes those screenshots to all women. If you get to be different, then why don't they?

How do you justify that?

[–]omg_ppl_are_stupid0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, the example i gave is considered white knighting..... if you removed gender from the situation the moral thing to do would be to stop the aggressor from attacking the victim, plain and simple. Gender wouldn't be the factor, what becomes the factor is when you add gender to all of the variables, The attacker, the defender, and the audience. As long as one of the three variables is a man, the outcome becomes bad for the man. This is caused by men and women in our society. This is why MGTOW has a problem with society, both men and women.

Other examples of why we despise men is simping. Or as many people know it, being a "nice guy". Many men stupidly do stuff for women that they would never do for a man because we are taught to be generous and nice to women and they will like you if you do. Men seek for a relationship just as women do, but what men have been taught to offer is their services and over time women have found that they can take advantage of men for these services without intentions of building a relationship. It's stupid how a girl in stem field in colleges can ask for help and a bunch of men will jump to help her and basically do the work for her thinking that they might get a date, or a kiss or whatever the fuck their seeking for from her. When in reality.... women are just as vain as men and will go for the football stud instead of the nerd if she feels she has a chance with them. Again, this falls on both men and women and has a caused a problem in society, all again why MGTOW has checked out.

Lastly.. I think why men hate men the most is their lack of holding women accountable for their own actions, personally i don't know what to call this category other than maybe gynocentrism. Men have historically and currently hold the power of the court systems. In EVERY SINGLE area of the court systems women statistically have been treated as perfect beings, yet their actions speak otherwise. The court systems in terms of crime have statistically higher conviction rates and sentence times for men for the same crimes. And where i'm sure this group has been fucked over the most, is family court..... to digress with a story... basically upon divorce women are assumed 100% the mother figure and men are assumed 0% the father figure. Whenever i bring up the fact that women always gain more custody of their children in divorce, women who are feminists state the fact that men who fight for their children in fact do gain 50% custody or more..... but that's the problem, men had to fight for custody where women didn't, it was just assumed. THAT, my friend is probably one of the biggest things that kills me inside especially since i am father of two.

"Your people" MGTOW isn't a movement, so in real life there is no way you could have seen us as "your people" We don't attend meetings, meetups, or whatever you have assumed to be us as people. We are not incels, we are not redpills, we are not PUA's. MGTOW is very different, I don't see how you could have seen us in the real world, considering how small we are, and if you notice from the posts of contributors to MGTOW, most of them do things in solitude. So, in real world, I would like you to provide some insight about how well you know MGTOW's actual actions.

As for screenshots.... you can use them against MGTOW, just as we can use screenshots of womens words against women. and screenshots of men against men. Don't get me wrong, there are some fucked up posts here in MGTOW, the mods try to let people express themselves, because many men come in here angry. It's a great place to vent.... for many men to learn about themselves. I'm sure i could find some ways to screenshot a few sentences from some men on MGTOW to make us sound horrible, just like taking anything out of context, i could make ghandi sound horrible. Just as i could make women sound horrible.

All in all, MGTOW has found that societys actual actions do not benefit men as a whole. You can say well men hold all the power, you can try to provide evidence that men benefit, but the actual perspective, is that FEW men benefit, where most do not, and women as a whole benefit more than men do as a whole, this is part of the reason why MGTOW exists. The hardest part most people have with MGTOW, is it's a very very different perspective on the world. Most people couldn't grasp the idea, it takes a long time to get here. If you hang around long enough you'll see that many men had a long journey to get here. It wasn't something that happened over night. There was no epiphany, but more of a slow turning point for many people here comprised over years of knowledge and understanding, and of course, a lot of anger. Just like neo in the matrix, he didn't want to believe it at first, it was a process. I wouldn't expect most people to understand right away either.

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[–]thedjmk-3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't aware your final question was directed to me. I thought you were speaking in generalities. Do you want to know what I personally bring to the table in terms of a relationship? I'm funny, smart, adventurous, and loyal. I own my house, I have a career, I'm educated with no student loans, and I make good money. I'm pretty and I do choose to partake in societal norms regarding physical attractiveness, but that's my choice. I actually don't look for "good men," I'm interested mostly in humor and ambition. I admit that a micropenis is a dealbreaker, and so is chewing tobacco.

Why does she need to cooperate? What bearing does that have?

So a woman is only worth what she does for you? Her actually personality has no bearing on it?

That's what I'm reading here - you lot are mad that she won't do for you. Who she is has no bearing.

I actually doubt you think this at all. I doubt very much that you think this is a sum of a woman's worth, but it's easier, isn't it, to lump women together in this dehumanizing trope than to examine anything with nuance.

[–]Megitgud11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

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[–]thedjmk-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Ok. How was this an experiment in "giving [me] a taste of equality?"

You would have had no way to know that I would see it, or that anyone would, or that I would respond. Once I did, you'd need a purpose for such an experiment. What purpose was that?

Going your own way is pretty clearly defined as rejecting societal norms and women as a whole. Constantly discussing women and discussing no other subject does not indicate that at all. As the incels would say, it's a cope.

I explained what I bring to the table, but if that was an experiment, what was the objective? Because you haven't addressed it since I answered. What was/is your end goal?

More importantly, why is your community so determined to be insular? Why are you afraid of having your ideals discussed or questioned by outsiders? If you're confident in them, then that's that. And if you want your numbers to grow in order to change society, my presence ought to be welcomed.

[–]Megitgud7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The purpose was to show lurkers how women can't handle equal judgement and I thank you for participating.

MGTOW isn't about rejecting women as a whole, there's a spectrum. The rule is to not marry or cohabitate.
Incels love the cope argument because it's hard for them to understand that a man can live without female validation, they are projecting their own image onto mgtow.
Talking about women is part of the healing process, it is like a therapy for men here who are going through the the red pill rage, since they can't voice their opinions about these angels in public they come here to vent. There are others topics being discussed but those don't get as much attention.
It is of absolute importance that mgtow remain male only space and no, you are not welcome. The moment an online community changes to accommodate women's wishes it is doomed to fail.

[+][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

If you were observing a therapy group of women who were so traumatized by their experiences with the opposite sex that they determined NEVER to marry, and part of their coping process was discussing their abusers and the social causes that led their abuse to occur...would you jump in at that point to make dozens of arguments about why they were wrong to do that? How would you feel if a male observer did?

[–]thedjmk1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ilikecombos11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]thedjmk1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A huge amount of you allege to be victims. The problem is what you claim to be victims of frequently doesn't match the sphere of existing trauma.

I'm sure some of you actually are. I'm equally sure some of you are not. I'm much more sure than even if all of you were, there is no situation where this is either a healthy coping mechanism or in any way therapeutic. Nor does trauma give you a pass for this behavior.

I do agree that there is not enough support for men who are abused, in fact, there isn't enough mental health support for men in general. That's part of the reason male suicide is so high. There's a massive need for qualified professionals in that arena. This, however, is not that.

The weird thing is you're the third guy here to justify this. Justify it, not defend it. As in, you're aware it's aberrant and not factual, but you've rationalized it.

[–]ilikecombos11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A huge amount of you allege to be victims.

Funny how listen and believe no longer applies the very instant it is inconvenient for a feminist.

The problem is what you claim to be victims of frequently doesn't match the sphere of existing trauma.

I have no idea what the fuck that means. I only know what it feels like to be abused by a family member for years, mentally and physically, including the horror of being jumped from behind in my own home as a teenager and having a streak knife put to my throat along with a murder threat. This was of course laughed off or disbelieved by the rest of the family, which is not surprising, because that is how society deals with abuse of men. Even when the abuse rises to the level of knives to throats. Laughter or disbelief. But I don't know why I'm bothering to explain that to you. You clearly know already since it is how you also decided to respond to my posts.

Nor does trauma give you a pass for this behavior.

So the male who decided to appoint himself leader of the women's survivor group despite them asking for him to just listen to their perspective and mocked everyone and said they were liars about abuse was met with the women losing their shit. They yelled at him. They called him names. Very bad names. Maybe they even say misandric jokes like "kill all men" or "boys are dumb, throw rocks at them."

He stands there, red faced, hands on his hips. He raises one arm and points at each of them and shouts, nearly in tears, "BUT I DIDN'T GIVE YOU A PASS TO BE THIS MAD AT MEN!"

What would you tell him?

[–]thedjmk1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ilikecombos11 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Except what you're angry about isn't even slightly akin to domestic violence.

How in the fuck in your world is a family member making a murder threat with a literal knife to your literal throat not domestic violence?

This is insane. How do you not understand at this point why I'm here on this sub instead of on one of your feminism subs? This is one of the only places on the internet where people don't disbelieve, laugh at, or mock the horrific abuse I have suffered. The only time it ever happens here is when feminist people like you show up to do it for reasons I just can't fucking understand. You can't let me have one place to be free of accusations that I caused my own abuse?

Like yes, again, I understand there is some toxic behavior here. But do you expect me to go with you to a way more (to a victim of my circumstances) toxic location where you can get a bunch of friends to join with you in mocking and disbelieving my abuse? Fix yourself. Fix your subs. I'll be happy never to come here again. Until then...I'm choosing between imperfect coping mechanisms and suicidal thoughts. Why don't you stop trying to attack me if you aren't willing to help me? Okay?

[–]bongohai0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]thedjmk1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Faradrim[S] 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]thedjmk-2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]young_MGTOW23 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NotMyWomen7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]thedjmk-6 points-5 points-4 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]t353tfb4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]thedjmk-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]t353tfb1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]NotMyWomen0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Hopefully not a repost
Author	Faradrim
Upvotes	536
Comments	126
Date	August 12, 2018 8:26 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/96s1xv/hopefully_not_a_repost/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/hopefully-not-a-repost.510754 https://theredarchive.com/post/510754

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