I'm really torn by this subreddit

BloodlessTurnip · 2019-02-21T03:43:03+00:00

I have to say that I was pretty fulfilled as a married man. If my wife had been a better cheater I'd still be putting up with her shit and suffering through marriage because "That's what real men do."

I worked hard and ate shit sandwiches everyday for 20 years to bring home the bacon.
Women at work threw themselves at me... and I laughed them off because I wasn't that kind of guy.
I suffered through YEARS of dead-bedroom because she was to "tired" to have sex (and to fat to feel sexy) after doing her own thing all day and playing with the kids. But, that didn't stop her from cheating with my friends and strangers she met on the internet.
I gutted and remodeled my Victorian house on the weekends and evenings... and she walked away with my house in the divorce (even though I bought the house by myself pre-marriage.)
She had a chemical engineering degree at 22 and I worked my way through night school to get my degree at 27. She made double my salary when I married her... 6 months post marriage she "got sick" and never worked another day for 25 years.
I got almost twice the woman I married after 8 years post "I do". Oh! She DOUBLED her weight till she weighed more than me! I'm 6'4", she's 5'5".
She walked away with $900K post divorce, plus 5 years free rent on the marital home AND my house. I rescued $800K of my earned assets from the bonfire and rented a room or couch-surfed for 6 years until I bought my sailboat.
I found out after I was separated for 4 years that my Mother/Father changed their Trust and gave 40% of my inheritance (~ $2,000,000!) to my cheating ex-wife. This is extra-points for double-betrayal! You could say that's inconsequential "rich people trouble" because I still get ~ $3,000,000... but my parents KNEW she cheated on me AND my kids and destroyed my marriage and savaged me in the divorce. But they gotta reward her: because vagina! Best part of this: My mother confessed to me that she cheated on my Dad when I was bitching to her about my cheating wife. Dad doesn't know. Didn't discover that my Mom disinherited me for 40% till after she was dead. Now, if I tell my father that Mom cheated on him... will that get him to change the trust or will I just get totally disinherited? I'm tempted to tell him just for the FUCK YOU DAD!

So, I'm old and bitter. Yup. Go ahead and get married. Don't say you weren't warned.

Dontmindmebrother · 2019-02-21T02:58:31+00:00

Honestly, most of those women hating posts are from new members. We are reaching hundreds of new members a week so of course,men with red pill rage need to vent it out. It can seem out of hand but WE must reach out and guide these lost souls into a path of self-actualization.

strongandhappy · 2019-02-21T03:24:11+00:00

If you see truths here then accept them. If you see ignorance and hate then reject it, just like anywhere in life. The importance of this sub, as you've noted, is that the truths can be spoken, truths that are censored anywhere else. Of course that means a lot of other things aren't censored either, but you're clearly capable of separating the wheat from the chaff so I'm glad you're here. No need to make major decisions now. Just keep yourself open to insight and perspectives and take every useful tool into your collection. We're working to empower men to be their best selves, as only they can determine. Don't be fooled, don't get trapped, kick some ass.

mgtowvic · 2019-02-21T04:00:37+00:00

The redpill rage comments are all very true. I'm not much of a fan of the women memes but I think guys just need to vent.

I can speak for myself and others that we do not hate women. The minimum requirement to be a MGTOW, if there is one, is to avoid marriage or any other legal ties to a woman, such as cohabitation. We have evaluated the risks of associating with women and realize they are not worth it. I might not initiate conversations with women, but I still talk to my mother and my sister. I still talk to women if they talk to me first. I keep them at arm's distance and that's enough for me.

Men say AWALT, but what we mean is if she isn't "like that", she has the potential to be "like that". Even if a woman provides companionship, is it better than living alone, focusing on ourselves, and avoiding the legal risks? Western society enables women to be promiscuous without consequences, lie about fatherhood, falsely accuse men of rape, divorce with no consequences (i.e. she will receive alimony, even if she is perfectly capable of getting a job, because she got "used" to a certain financial lifestyle), abuse their children with little consequence, and win custody of their children 80% of the time. Divorce rates are higher than ever, and something like 80% of them are initiated by women. Is it worth the gamble at this point? Even if a woman is a "unicorn", there is no guarantee she won't change, and she has an abundance of societal support to do whatever she wants with no consequence. And even if a woman is a unicorn and you can "control" her via redpill methodology (like in the redpill subreddit), is it worth all of that effort? Men hate the process and female nature, not necessarily all of the individual women themselves. It's a risk to take, and we avoid that risk.

Ultimately, whether you go MGTOW is your choice and yours alone. You will have regrets and what-ifs whichever path you choose in life. We all would strongly recommend you go MGTOW, but if you want to give romance a try, then we can't stop you.

Misogynes · 2019-02-21T03:55:57+00:00

Is it really right to exclude women from our personal lives entirely? Humankind is fundamentally diverse. It rationally doesn't make sense to avoid other humans simply for being a different sex. The division by sex quite literally splits the world in half. If we choose to exclude half of the world from our personal life, we are most certainly missing out on something.

Lol.

Texian_Fusilier · 2019-02-21T03:16:57+00:00

Redpill rage is a phase most of us go through. I didnt go through it as much. Some dont, most do.

Still, the past 2 years alone, feminazis got a lot worse, a lot faster. And that train has no brakes.

They were bad enough in my day, but if they're all #metoo at that age, just choose freedom right off. For me, its be like belly flopping on to a landmine shouting SHOW ME A DUD! 💣😵💥

eightgaydiamonds · 2019-02-21T04:00:34+00:00

It is a valid option not to associate with females. It takes constant reminders, and that's why I keep coming back here.

tdh792 · 2019-02-21T03:22:27+00:00

I think you're too young to take the red pill. You seem to have all of the knowledge but you need to experience it for yourself. Hold on to that knowledge.

The difference in 2019 is that a young man won't have to the feel the wrath of 5 different women and ask "hey wait a minute" ? I did EVERYTHING right. Why did she throw me under the bus like that? How could she??

Now, perhaps after the first, you'll break the cycle early.

rooster-one4 · 2019-02-21T04:00:54+00:00

Being a teenager, you are seeing the height of female maturity for the most part; the ones that go past that are notable. As you climb through age, you'll start seeing that more and more, where in 10 years, a lot of the women you run into haven't really grown emotionally or mentally. Some will, sure, just as some men will not grow.

A lot of what you read here isn't supposed to be indicative of absolute truths. More or less, it's just a variety of stories that say watch out for your future, or to be your own best friend first, or to avoid the hot pan.

Amphibole_ · 2019-02-21T04:13:42+00:00

Is it really right to exclude women from our personal lives entirely?

We aren't splitting the world in half to avoid females, it's not the direction we're taking. You're saying that if MGTOW were to be taken to an extreme it wouldn't be rational, but it isn't even an option in this society for MGTOW to be taken to an extreme without living in a forest. Your argument on this holds no value.

Now looking at something more realistic reductions of interactions with women, it clearly increases the quality of life in those who take it... This just goes to show that your hypothesis is flawed at some point. I'm sure avoiding interactions reduces some positives. I bet it also reduces a lot more shit in life, but you can't tell people not to avoid women just for the small positive component, which is not worth it.

You talk of positive interactions you've had with women as if it's a valid argument. It sounds like you're trying to deny the red pill. Now it certainly is good to question new theory, but that's exactly what you need to do then. Do more reading, look at the world and see if a few experiences you've had make the red pill false. If it is true, then what position are you putting yourself in life by further exposure?

I think that the attitudes of many people on the sub are skewed in the wrong direction.

There's a reason why normies outside this sub think that we are a bunch of bitter, failed-relationship woman haters. It's because posts really are.

Some argued that MGTOW has extremists, especially during red pill rage, which is true.

But how people perceive MGTOW is a reflection of themselves, more than what MGTOW really is. MGTOW is 'functionally' a bunch of men complaining about women on their sub and avoiding women. Outsiders may view this without thought and dislike MGTOW for it. That's called being ignorant, which is the same thing which puts those people in situations which ruin their lives. They're stupid, simple as that. You can look at how the 'stupid' public always mocked scientists who were correct.

Now the next question, are the attitudes of people on this sub that of bitter woman hater? Of course some are. But most of what i see are people who have found a way to actually enjoy laughing at women. Turning something horrible into a form of entertainment. If you look in on the outside and you're offended, MGTOWs don't give a shit, because they're having too good of a time. Not to say MGTOWs should undertake this activity infront of women, that's just rude. But if women walk into a male space, they're doing it to themselves.

weaklion · 2019-02-21T11:36:25+00:00

A couple random thoughts:

However, it scared me a little bit that the more I read some of these posts, the more they resonated with me. Being autonomous is always superior than having to support someone else, whether or not they contribute equally.

When I was a teenager, I had very similar thoughts and eventually came to the conclusion that if I ever enter a relationship, it would be with me and my girlfriend separate lives for the most part - in separate apartments etc.

This is what MGTOW now succintly calls 'don't cohabitate'.

That's some 20+ years ago.

But meanwhile, my goal of "wanting to become more mainstream" was my biggest mistake, instilled by the immense social pressure all around; people never understood my innate desire for freedom, bringing me to the point of not understanding it myself anymore. With more distance, it turns out I was right for myself all along. The chains don't fit me.

I knew well at your age that the usual relationshits are, well, shit. You seem so, too. Don't forget this.

Age and the lessened sex drive makes me view monk mode as superior now. But to each their own. MGTOW doesn't mean no sex.

A couple words on MGTOW vs. PUA here... besides from PUA feeling pointless, various things kept me from it. For one, I was always able to imagine the pointlessness that comes from just chasing pussy. The emptiness after having chased the sexual high. A thinking mind is able to extrapolate this pointless endeavor.

Then, I never got myself to the point of being that much of an asshole to be a true PUA. PUAs will of course call this behavior weak and beta.

But if you analyze yourself enough, you'll see that much of PUA is putting other folks down in a dog-eat-dog zero-sum competition, including putting other men down around you to make yourself more visible to the pussy.

SMV economics dictates that if you refrain from this behavior, you'll get less pussy. In a market where there's enough "full PUAs" around, you'll lose to them. The violent psychopath is the perfect PUA.

Thinking this through to the end you end up in mental corners of disgust you'd never imagine to be possible. But the reason is clear: As a feeling, empathic, yet rational human being you realize that maximizing sex isn't maximizing your happiness or content. And that realization is the cure from PUA.

Note that this doesn't mean you can't excel in any way or are bound to a life of mediocrity. Nor does it mean that getting some pussy through PUA makes you a mass murderer. Of course, shades of gray exist. But one has to realize that a truly excellent PUA is indistinguishable from Joseph Stalin or any other violent psychopath. Not an ideal that is fitting me.

On the other hand, I think that the attitudes of many people on the sub are skewed in the wrong direction. There's a reason why normies outside this sub think that we are a bunch of bitter, failed-relationship woman haters.

Try to free yourself from what others think about you. We don't care if we're labelled woman-haters, at least not with an intact assumption of pseudonymity of the internet. In the real life, I reply with "I didn't find the right one yet", of course. Because in RL, being accused of misogynist quickly gets you accused a rapist and whatnot and folks start to outright shun, or worse, attack you for your views. Freeing oneself and one's mind of the PC-barrier of fearing being called a misogynist for calling a spade a spade is part of what makes this place special; that's why people don't want SJW-talk here.

I am not a woman hater. I remove their sex appeal and I am left with humans that are all-too-often barely above chimpanzees in their manners. I don't at all long for their eradication, but am most happy staying well clear of most. Especially also given that if there's complexity in woman's thinking, it is to aid the usual underhanded and sneaky ways that are so stereotypically female. Like snakes.

And yes, of course this is true for most women. Draw the bar at 80%, 90%, 99.9%, I don't care. Note that there's Esther Vilar linked in the sidebar so MGTOW do know that exceptions exist. Women scientists with interesting and new theories existed and will exist. Curiously enough, they'll all be invariably more masculine in their thinking.

And even if you believe in just 80% of women being shit, that doesn't mean the unicorn view makes sense. Unicorns still don't exist, it is a fantasy. Eternal love doesn't exist, that is a lie. It is hormones and their resulting feeling unduly elevated to a metaphysical idea; like a broken religion almost.

At most it will be fleeting mutual attraction and the feeling that 'you could stay together for the rest of your life'. But not with love. Rather with 'making it work' and getting along with each other. That's a much lower bar. Is that really worth all your time, your effort? And are you really sure she'll stay that way? Despite all the odds of a society on "gynocentrism steroids"?

All women I ever thought I loved were not worth the effort in the end. Some of them might have been in the 20%, 10% or 0.1% bin. But even if they were somewhat decent human beings (hint: not all were, what snapped me completely out of the blue pill was a relationship with a female 'BPD' psychopath) they would still not be worth the effort.

Is it really right to exclude women from our personal lives entirely? Humankind is fundamentally diverse. It rationally doesn't make sense to avoid other humans simply for being a different sex. The division by sex quite literally splits the world in half. If we choose to exclude half of the world from our personal life, we are most certainly missing out on something.

No offense, but "missing out on something" is to a large degree something that social engineers tell the youth to mold them to whatever they want them to be.

There is enough interesting stuff around that, curiously enough, is never mentioned when folks talk about 'missing out on something'. Intense but arcane hobbies. Science. Living your own life in a content way as a full merger of hobby and lifestyle. Making money for the sake of more freedom. Etc.

Travelling can be fun and interesting and also fulfilling. Of course. But is it really worth it to take the one-hundred-billions cheesy photo of a smile in front of the tower of Pisa and taking yourself to the next McDonald's afterwards?

Buying stuff can be fun and interesting. A new tool for your workshop? A motorbike if you're into it? (Many seem to) A nice restaurant once in a while? Most definitely. But getting into a purely consumerist mindset and chasing fleeting high after high in the temples of consumption. No thanks. And who does that predominantly? Yes, women.

And also, with regards to missing out on females: I had points in my youth where I felt females are completely pointless. The "missing out on something" made me try them. My thinking now? A waste of time. Like I thought before.

Not to say that there weren't good moments with women. Of course there were. But you integrate over the whole experience and it becomes pointless to negative. At least for me. Been there, done that.

That said, do whatever you want. If you try out females, I'd argue to try to keep the right mindset for the sake of your own sanity. Of course this will lead to the female trying to drive that out of you, for babies, family, a home, divorce and so forth. Or as others have said: Choose Live.

They tell me to learn from others, so while my mind is still malleable, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

My bottom line would be: Be very careful around women. Don't let them attack your rationality. Marriage is just a contract, not something metaphysical.

unapologetic_male · 2019-02-21T03:19:40+00:00

I’m not sure that a lot of men are angry at women but more so that men are realizing from their past experiences and the cycles of deceit, paired with the realization that women believe that they are equal to men (a false narrative), with the State forcing men to support women (taxes, single mothers, child support, alimony, divorce etc) that men are realizing that we can live our lives peacefully without the need for women. And with that life, we can choose to go our own way.

My 2 cents.

DT1726 · 2019-02-21T05:09:34+00:00

Is it really right to exclude women from our personal lives entirely? Humankind is fundamentally diverse.

Women's nature is self destructive, and men's nature is constructive. After a conquest there be always establishment of a new order. Women's nature on the other hand seek to continuously consume thus inherently self destructive.

To further self actualize you must break your anticipation for reward from female's interaction or from society. Isolate and learn to appreciate yourself, the attachment for female touch or social validation will hinder your path to attain freedom. Instead of yearning for something external, you learn to be at peace being alone.

After the high or the low there will always be the calm, you can't ride the high or be at the low forever. After the initial honeymoon of marriage, there will be the monotonous day to day live with your wife or your children. To continue seeking the honeymoon, is to never accept peace, that's women's nature. But man, on the other hand can appreciate the monotonous day because man has this inner drive (to be provider, protector) to make them feel validated.

Going your own way means you will find what drive you aside the male biological roles. There will be peace brother, and women are the antithesis of peace.

Dmapguy · 2019-02-21T05:28:19+00:00

"Is it really right to exclude women from our personal lives entirely? Humankind is fundamentally diverse. It rationally doesn't make sense to avoid other humans simply for being a different sex. The division by sex quite literally splits the world in half. If we choose to exclude half of the world from our personal life, we are most certainly missing out on something."

I'm around your age, 21, here's how I view it. MGTOW is not about exclusion or hatred neccessarily. It's about learning indifference. That is my sentiment and what I strive for. Not becoming an uncaring bastard to society, I want to make an impact on it in a beneficial way, but just not concerning myself with the way society wants me to contribute. i.e. Pay taxes, Marry, Reproduce, Die.

Lil_Fell · 2019-02-21T14:30:10+00:00

Alright buddy..

First of all MGTOW is a philosophy and last thing we want is to turn it into dogma.

We aren't doing group thinking here that's why you have to come up with your own way of going your own way. However, for you to make up your own conclusion you need to go through the required life experience. So my advise to you (as a teenager), Get purple pilled and carry on with your life.. Get into a few relationships short or long and try.. Learn more about women nature but be aware of the bs.. Write a sticker on your mirror reminding you to never build emotional attachments with anyone no matter how good the relationship appears to be. Learn to have sexual abundance and not let a girl control using sex. So purple pill is the guys who know the true nature of women but they still get into relationships while they are aware and careful and until you see the bs with your own eyes you can decide where you gonna go from there.

Marriage:

DON'T!!!.. you have already heard about all these stories plus nowadays I can tell you the best relationship with anyone would maximum last for 5 years after that it is just misery and unhappiness.. it could be due to the new age of information where people evolve a lot faster psychologically and grow apart BUT! marriage is a religious idea!!.. It is for those who have piety and don't want to have sex outside marriage and so they vouch to be together forever.. marriage and marriage laws ARE designed for religious people.. People have now abandoned religion so of course marriage is not going to work! Dah!! you really think marrying the twerking bitch from school is gonna last? Trust me bro no one will ever last in your life they all go even friends don't last why would you invest a huge amount of money and then lose half your shit?

Alienating the other gender.

Just because your going your own way it doesn't mean you have to not interact with females. of course you can date, you gonna have female friends(ish), relatives and co-workers. The idea is to be independent and not share your life with a "Soulmate" or any of that bs. Just focus on your purpose and save your money and look after your health. Don't let anybody trick you into marriage or having kids because trust they will try especially when they see that you got money and you're successful they will be throwing their clams at you so be cautious and believe me there are some really good actresses out there who will go above and beyond to make you fall in love with them and make you chase them. They will cry fake tears and they will say I love you while looking straight to your eyes.. then they will go and hump the guy from the gym the next morning while you're at work..

Hump and dump.

No commitment, No love.

tramese · 2019-02-21T04:52:13+00:00

don't need to believe anybody...if any doubts, go try it to experience it yourself.

if you get burned, then the conviction will be stronger.

bio_snacker · 2019-02-21T05:08:37+00:00

Dude wall of text. Simple: disregard women; acquire currency

honda_vfr · 2019-02-21T05:29:34+00:00

I don't think I have red pill rage anymore, but I still resent American women.

I doubt I could ever trust one again.

Natsume24 · 2019-02-21T05:34:41+00:00

Do you hate a snake for being venomous? I doubt it. You do take precautions and generally avoid it or control the situation if you interact with one to reduce the risk of getting bitten.

Think of this subreddit in a similar fashion but with women.

Gibits · 2019-02-21T07:48:13+00:00

We are a varied bunch. Some of us hate women, some of us are neutral, and others like them. The only thins we can agree on is that marriage, cohabitation and kids are too risky in terms of cost benefit. And second, gain personal happiness not based on outside validation.

I would never force an idea on you. That’s what feminists do. Go and live a little, fall in love, have your heart broken, be in a long term relationship and see what it’s like for yourself. I myself was married, even have two kids. I can survive one divorce but not a second one. No one will force you to go your own way, it’s called your own way, not someone else’s.

Just remember that in a relationship, the man carries all the risk and has to put in all the effort. If this was a business deal it would be a terrible deal. But if you feel you want to see what it’s all about then feel free to try it out. But go in with your eyes open and make a decision then.

Fukitol13 · 2019-02-21T09:25:03+00:00

"I consider my greatest accomplishment to be lifelong celibacy"-Isaac Newton

BalancingVices · 2019-02-21T10:09:46+00:00

MGTOW shouldn't be "divisive". At it's core, MGTOW is nothing more than plain, common sense and self-interest.

You're a teenager and you can still develop quickly. MGTOW is flexible: you can try TRP and MGTOW to get the best of all worlds, IF you know your position and keep your wits about you.

Modern marriage is plain retarded for men: no upsides, high costs and high risks and shouldn't even be called marriage. There are no married people in the West, only married finances. Even marriage under ancient law was a compromise with many downsides, but the shit we have now is for fools and fools only.

RealColtzanos · 2019-02-21T13:01:25+00:00

I'm genuinely happy to see more teenagers in this sub. Being one myself, I completely understand your pov and relate to not being able to talk to your peers about MGTOW out of fear of being labelled with slurs.

Honestly, I personally identify as a MGTOW, but I don't believe all of the red pills this sub drops. I will always concede the fact that I have no experience and have not lived as long as the people here have. That's why I listen and lurk here. To learn. After all the old farts here might be on to something. They might be right.

This sub does tear me apart too, I don't hate women at all. However I am MGTOW for my own reasons and decide to stick around regardless. As people here might not share my ideology exactly, but there close enough. Closer than the rest of my peers.

Isn't MGTOW all about going your own way and following your ideals? Don't let the rampant women hating turn you off then. If it doesn't fit YOUR idealogy just take it as someone else's opinion and advice and respect it as that. We're all on our own ways anyway.

[deleted] · 2019-02-21T14:33:12+00:00

Men we fed an illusion about relationships with women for years and those illusions are starting to fall apart quickly, mostly because men have started talking to another about their experiences.

MarriedZombie · 2019-02-21T14:40:38+00:00

Go out and date girls, see how they slowly suck your soul dry. You are in a better position than most of the older generations as you'll be armed with red pill female nature knowledge so you'll already know what to look out for. Don't get married, don't cohabitate and don't devote any of your resources to women you're trying to impress for poon. And always pop in for your daily dose of redpills.

WindKazama · 2019-02-21T15:23:10+00:00

Just get married dude. It will be all fine bro.

since25jan2019 · 2019-02-21T20:05:07+00:00

You don't need to stick your hand into every fire to learn its properties. The greatest teacher is experience (~Socrates).

If you survive long enough, you might be back here someday.

Terlancster · 2019-02-21T19:59:12+00:00

Yeah I dont see ignoring women/ hating them being the way to go but just being mindful of mgtow concepts so you dont get screwed over

Title	I'm really torn by this subreddit
Author	imcompletelyrational
Upvotes	39
Comments	56
Date	February 21, 2019 2:50 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/asxq2j/im_really_torn_by_this_subreddit/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW/im-really-torn-by-this-subreddit.393777 https://theredarchive.com/post/393777

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