A question about circumcision.

Quarkster · 2013-06-20T15:56:43+00:00

Well first off, there's the whole rights issue. It's almost never done for medical reasons and infants can't consent to that sort of procedure.

http://news.menshealth.com/is-your-circumcision-making-you-soft/2011/11/02/
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm
Erogenous zone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridged_band#Function
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_effects_of_circumcision#Adverse_effects

Aside from occasional botched circumcisions which can have really bad consequences, circumcision removes parts of the penis that act as erogenous zones and shield the head of the penis from the elements. Circumcised men will have reduced sexual experience. If that weren't bad enough, this can cause performance issues, particularly later in life.

There are no real medical benefits. The only demonstrated benefit of circumcision is reduced incidence of phimosis, a rare condition which can quite easily be handled if and when it occurs.

The female equivalent of circumcision is clitoral hood removal, which closely parallels just about every point here. The removal of the clitoral hood is classified as a mild form of female genital mutilation and is a felony in most or all of the western world. Outside of certain terrible parts of the world where it is used for terroristic purposes, female genital mutilation is done for religious motivations similar to that of circumcision in Judaism.

Some people in the Jewish community who recognize all of this choose to have a briss in which a tiny amount of blood is let from the penis without actual circumcision occuring, or have a purely symbolic briss. The child could then choose whether or not to have a real circumcision later in life.

RatSnakeRabbitSnake · 2013-06-20T19:04:18+00:00

As someone who was circumcised as a young child, not an infant, you might find my perspective interesting. Its a long story, but Ill try to keep it short. Its not easy to talk about, so that shouldn't be hard.

Unhappy about the sexual abuse I was subject to, I started to have urinary track infections. They weren't a big deal, but my main abusive mother saw this as an opportunity to hurt me, which she thought I deserved, I was a man after all. This also made my problems my fault, to both me and the doctors, supposedly because I was dirty and couldn't clean it right.

So after a few weeks of being threatened with having part of my penis cut off, the survey was scheduled, and I was put under anesthesia. When I woke up, the pain I could deal with. It was not something I would wish on anyone, but I had already become all too good at quietly enduring pain and discomfort. The true horror came when I looked down.

Part of my penis was gone. Think about that for a moment. Part of my penis was gone, and so was part of me. In its place wasnt some sleek "cut" head, but blood. Lots of dark, dry, crusty, blood. I didn't know what was under it, and I was afraid that it would only get worse. In a way, it did.

I went through puberty, through young adult hood, and through sexual exploration thinking my penis was ugly and small. For years, when I saw my penis, I saw the scars, and I was sure that's all any girl would see. Unlike many boys, I never measured my penis growing up. I would feel upset even looking at rulers, and I never really internalized measurement. Why would I? I knew I was small, I had internalized that feeling of mutilation, of losing part of me, of being cut down to size, and I didn't need the confirmation.

It turns out Im actually quite hung. Supportive women, sexually imagery, and even camera phones have all helped me embrace my sexuality. In that way it didn't do permanent psychological damage, but it was a big part of a child hood Im still getting over. Maybe getting over it is not even the word, Im happy with coping.

I have PTSD, I still feel insecure sexually when Im not feeling like a sex god, and while I don't exactly suffer from performance issues there are days when I feel so traumatized that I cant let my guard down enough to have sex (but that's part of healing, since Im safe enough to say "tomorrow" to my lover).

I know not all parents who circumcise their boys are anything like mine, and I don't mean to suggest that they are. However, I just can't make peace with the idea that any parent has the right to mutilate a child, or hold such dominion over a child's sexual organs. It may be part of other people's cultures, but I have a right to my own culture, and I believe that abuse should be a part of it.

Some people don't see it as abuse, but such views are almost always dependent on the fact that the victims don't remember it, at least not verbally, which doesn't mean they don't have scars outside the more vocal parts of the nervous system. But even if its taken for granted that lacking a certain awareness of this hardship makes it okay, what kind of moral precedent is that?

Where else would we excuse something done to a child with "their too young to remember?" When else do we defend and continue a wave of mutilation by claiming that ignorance is bliss? If you don't remember being different, or being cut, that doesn't mean you didn't bleed, or that your body hasn't been changed. Maybe being circumcised doesn't "bother you." I know being molested didn't "bother me," at least not when I would forget.

2013-06-20T15:48:56+00:00

Bodily autonomy. From a moral standpoint every single person has the right to bodily autonomy which means that without a good medical reason no one else has the right to perform surgical procedures on them, especially if those procedures result in permanent damage and loss of function.

We don't argue against an individual's right to be circumcised but that should be a choice made by an informed adult about their own body.

ArbainHestia · 2013-06-20T16:02:43+00:00

Consider this

And this

Neither is acceptable.

MiracleRiver · 2013-06-20T22:14:31+00:00

Here are a few of the "problems":

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html

Many people think circumcision removes nothing more than a little extra skin. However, circumcision removes several critical components of male sexual anatomy. This list enumerates everything currently known to be physically lost after circumcision.

Alongside these physical losses, it is important to remember that whenever a child is circumcised, by far the greatest loss is his choice to make decisions about his own body and his own sex life when he becomes an adult.

Further information on the anatomy of intact male genitals, and a diagram, can be found on the anatomy page.

Circumcision the Hidden Trauma: How an American Cultural Practice Affects Infants and Ultimately Us All

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More BooksThe Foreskin which comprises up to 50% (sometimes more) of the mobile skin system of the penis. If unfolded and spread out flat the average adult foreskin would measure about 15 square inches( the size of a 3x5 inch index card). This highly specialised tissue normally covers the glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callusing(keratinisation), and contaminants of all kinds.The effect of glans keratinisation has never been studied. [1. M. M. Lander, "The Human Prepuce," in G. C. Denniston and M. F. Milos, eds., Sexual Mutilations: A Human Tragedy (New York: Plenum Press, 1997), 79-81. 2. M. Davenport, "Problems with the Penis and Prepuce: Natural History of the Foreskin," British Medical Journal 312 (1996): 299-301.]

The Frenar Ridged Band, the primary erogenous zone of the male body. Loss of this delicate belt of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue reduces the fullness and intensity of sexual response. [Taylor, J. R. et al., "The Prepuce: Specialized Mucosa of the Penis and Its Loss to Circumcision," British Journal of Urology 77 (1996): 291-295.]

The Foreskin's 'Gliding Action' - the hallmark mechanical feature of the normal natural, intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth , comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding action, the corona of the circumcised penis can function as a oneway valve, scraping vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and making artificial lubricants essential for pleasurable intercourse. [P. M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, "The Case Against Circumcision," Mothering: The Magazine of Natural Family Living (Winter 1997): 36-45.]

Nerve Endings Nerve Endings transmit Sensations to the Brain - Fewer Nerve Endings means Fewer Sensations Circumcision removes the most important sensory component of the foreskin - thousands of coiled fine-touch receptors called Meissner's corpuscles. Also lost are branches of the dorsal nerve, and between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types. Together these detect subtle changes in motion and temperature, as well as fine gradations in texture. [1. R. K. Winkelmann, "The Erogenous Zones: Their Nerve Supply and Its Significance," Proceedings of the Staff Meetings of the Mayo Clinic 34 (1959): 39-47. 2. R. K. Winkelmann, "The Cutaneous Innervation of Human Newborn Prepuce," Journal of Investigative Dermatology 26 (1956): 53-67.]

The Frenulum The highly erogenous V-shaped web-like tethering structure on the underside of the glans; frequently amputated along with the foreskin, or severed, either of which destroys its function and potential for pleasure. [1. Cold, C, Taylor, J, "The Prepuce," BJU International 83, Suppl. 1, (1999): 34-44. 2. Kaplan, G.W., "Complications of Circumcision," Urologic Clinics of North America 10, 1983.]

Muscle Sheath Circumcision removes approximately half of the temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath which lies between the outer layer of skin and the corpus cavernosa. This is called the dartos fascia. [Netter, F.H., "Atlas of Human Anatomy," Second Edition (Novartis, 1997): Plates 234, 329, 338, 354, 355.]

The Immunological Defense System of the soft mucosa. This produces both plasma cells that secrete immunoglobulin antibodies and antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as the pathogen-killing enzyme lysozyme. [1. A. Ahmed and A. W. Jones, "Apocrine Cystadenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce," British Journal of Dermatology 81 (1969): 899-901. 2. P. J. Flower et al., "An Immunopathologic Study of the Bovine Prepuce," Veterinary Pathology 20 (1983):189-202.]

Lymphatic Vessels the loss of which reduces the lymph flow within that part of the body's immune system. [Netter, F.H., "Atlas of Human Anatomy," Second Edition (Novartis, 1997): plate 379.]

Oestrogen Receptors The presence of estrogen receptors within the foreskin has only recently been discovered. Their purpose is not yet understood and needs further study. [R. Hausmann et al., "The Forensic Value of the Immunohistochemical Detection of Oestrogen Receptors in Vaginal Epithelium," International Journal of Legal Medicine 109 (1996): 10-30.]The Body is Well Designed - Altering it Surgically can only Disrupt it's Natural Function

The Apocrine Glands of the inner foreskin, which produce pheremones -nature's powerful, silent, invisible behavioural signals to potential sexual partners. The effect of their absence on human sexuality has never been studied. [A. Ahmed and A. W. Jones, "Apocrine Cystadenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce," British Journal of Dermatology 81 (1969): 899-901.]

rightsbot · 2013-06-20T15:30:26+00:00

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sibqm_lmvm · 2013-06-20T16:09:54+00:00

Were you at an age where you could make an informed decision about circumcision when it happened? I'm assuming not, since you're Jewish.

If a teenager or adult wants to get circumcised, I'm cool with that. If a baby or child is forced into circumcision by someone else, like a parent or doctor, I do not approve of that. It is not the child's choice, and is mutilation at that point. It is not up to other people to alter your body. His body, His choice. My body, my choice. There are exceptions of course. If a baby is born and has some problems that requires surgery or removal of a body part, then that qualifies as a medical necessity, and, since the child cannot comprehend the situation, it's up to the parents to make the choice.

mikesteane · 2013-06-20T21:34:10+00:00

When you take a knife to the penis of an eight-day-old baby, you are invading his right to bodily integrity.

There is a connection between circumcision and the fact that people in certain parts of the world cannot solve border disputes.

As a member of the 1% of the human race that has received 1/3 of all Nobel prices can you identify what the connection is?

cyanocobalamin · 2013-06-22T17:32:46+00:00

This "FAQ" page at IntactAmerica.org is compelling

circumcision does not prevent disease
circumcision likely decreases sexual please
81% of American baby boys were circumcised in 1981, now only 40%

Title	A question about circumcision.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	34
Date	June 20, 2013 3:29 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1gqcse/a_question_about_circumcision/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-question-about-circumcision.1170645 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170645

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