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A short case for hate

avoiceformen

August 2, 2012

1 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/a-short-case-for-hate/

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Post Information

Title	A short case for hate
Author	avoiceformen
Upvotes	1
Comments	57
Date	August 2, 2012 4:07 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xkh93/a_short_case_for_hate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-short-case-for-hate.1016684 https://theredarchive.com/post/1016684

Comments

[–]Hach8 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I didn't catch any rationale for hating women in that (or I would not have allowed it to run) but the piece was a bit ambiguous about that.

My interpretation was that he was talking about the things that bring harm to men as a matter of socially acceptable routine, e.g. feminists, family courts, white knights.

I don't see what you see in the MRM, though. I do see a minority of men who are freshly wounded and obviously need help in moving past the betrayals and injustices they have suffered onto a more productive path. But I also see that important transition happening all the time BECAUSE of the MRM.

By giving men a place to vent their pain and indignation, without shaming and blaming them, we provide them a depressurizing tank. That again speaks to the heart of this article, IMO.

I understand that a lot of people will miss the point. As a society we are still trapped in PC opinions about what is OK and not OK to feel, rather than focusing on peoples actions. But again, I think the MRM is a place that is helping to change that.

Feeling hate isn't bad. Feeling anything isn't bad. It is what you do that counts, and at AVfM what most of us want to do is to honor those feelings and help men use them for productive action instead of self destruction or the harming of others.

[–]Hach8 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, I was referring to the beginning:

“Oh, you just hate women”, you often see him respond with something like “being for equality doesn’t mean we hate women.”

The idea from there on, to me, is the writer justifying why it's OK to do the former, and why we shouldn't need to do say latter.

I'm actively for the MRM, and I think men do need to have a voice. If it was about hating the feminist systems, and the things that actively oppress men, then that's fine but I think it should have been put in more specific terms that that is so, is all. Feeling hate isn't bad. But we must be careful where our hate is directed because misguided hate can be extremely destructive (figuratively and literally), and I don't think the article rings that particular bell.

I recognize what you do as good work, even if I do find the site extreme at times, but that's just my criticism.

[–]avoiceformen[S,🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]VerySpecialSnowflake -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S,🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]burritosandbeer 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaunaLoona2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]Grapeban -10 points-9 points-8 points 14 years ago (49 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jacksambuck 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

This may come as a shock to you, but you can't control other peoples emotions or dictate to them the emotions they should have. Sure, this whole subreddit or AVfM could come out and say "We won't tolerate any form of misogyny from anyone" but what would that accomplish? You would have people who are still hateful/angry/bitter who would have no outlet and instead be forced to lie about their own feelings in order to get be apart of a community. All that results in is isolation of those people and lashing out. Instead people should be allowed to express their feelings, explain them, work through them or funnel them into productive ends.

As the article explained, men who just realized what has happened to them are going to be hateful, angry or bitter. Thats normal. Telling them they should be ashamed of themselves because of the way they feel doesn't help the situation. Eventually those men will realize its not a group of people they hate, it's the ideology held by certain groups of people.

[+]Grapeban -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

What the article is saying is that if men stop hating, that elevates them above the evil, hateful women, and that's a terrible thing because men must be hateful in order to be loved? Or something?

A related idea is that the disavowal of hate contributes to male hyper-agency. What kind of man is so good, so discerning and has so much emotional control that he could never stumble to the level of a typical woman? A hyper-agent is. He may now be disqualified from fellowship, sympathy and understanding.

Or maybe it's saying that being a misogynist stops you from being suicidal?

When one suppresses hate, one loses the opportunity to actively manage it, deliberately channel it and exploit it as a positive motivator. At best, sublimated hate leaks out in other ways that may be even more injurious. We have all seen passive-aggression supported by sunshine and baby bunnies. We have all heard about all the care free and affable guys who wind up sucking on a pistol.

Anyway, the last paragraph shows that he doesn't understand why we shouldn't be misogynists. He asks why we shouldn't hate women, and avoids the idea that hating women is shitty thing to do.

In the tempest of the blogosphere….ahhh. You will see daily where an MRA includes a disclaimer in his comment that repudiates hate. I am positive he is nearly always being truthful. No question about the veracity, but what is gained? What is lost? Maybe if we say it enough the feminists will start to like us? Mary Kellet will go easy on us when we are falsely accused? I see no benefit to communicating that thought whatsoever

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

What the article is saying is that if men stop hating, that elevates them above the evil, hateful women, and that's a terrible thing because men must be hateful in order to be loved? Or something?

Yeah, you don't understand the article, which isn't surprising considering you are bring the understanding of a 15 y/o. The article was talking about if we deny that men experience hate, and that it is a valid emotion to have when you've been screwed over, we are denying them the right to have the full spectrum of human emotion. This turns them into a hyper-agent, which people can't sympathize with.

Or maybe it's saying that being a misogynist stops you from being suicidal?

Again, you aren't understanding the article. Allowing men to express their hate allows it to be dealt with openly. This prevents them from lashing out in either passive aggressive way in non-constructive setting or just outright killing themselves because of their suppressed emotional turmoil.

Anyway, the last paragraph shows that he doesn't understand why we shouldn't be misogynists. He asks why we shouldn't hate women, and avoids the idea that hating women is shitty thing to do.

No, the last paragraph is about it being unproductive to deny misogyny because 1) feminists won't believe you anyway and 2) Because it doesn't matter if the person hates women or not. Their arguments stand regardless of what their personal feelings are.

He asks why we shouldn't hate women, and avoids the idea that hating women is shitty thing to do.

Just hating a group of people by itself isnt "a shitty thing to do" because you arent actually "doing" anything. Hate is just an emotion, and so long as it isn't acted on it remains powerless. Hateful actions are shitty.

It would be like saying "being angry at someone is a shitty thing to do" when it isnt. being angry and then violently lashing out at someone is a shitty thing to do. The emotion itself is neutral because there is no action tied to it.

Again, you can't seem to get passed the idea that men are allowed to experience the full gamut of human emotions and that you have no right to tell them that what they feel is shameful or dangerous. Only men's actions can be criticized.

[+]Grapeban -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

The article was talking about if we deny that men experience hate, and that it is a valid emotion to have when you've been screwed over, we are denying them the right to have the full spectrum of human emotion. This turns them into a hyper-agent, which people can't sympathize with.

Guess what? No-ones says you aren't allowed to hate! What they're saying is, hating an entire group of people for irrational reasons is something you shouldn't do! Especially if you are a group dedicated to equality.

Just hating a group of people by itself isnt "a shitty thing to do" because you arent actually "doing" anything. Hate is just an emotion, and so long as it isn't acted on it remains powerless. Hateful actions are shitty.

Every time an MRA complains about misandry, I'm going to tell them this.

It would be like saying "being angry at someone is a shitty thing to do" when it isnt. being angry and then violently lashing out at someone is a shitty thing to do. The emotion itself is neutral because there is no action tied to it.

If I was angry at you because you were black, that would be a shitty thing to do, because it's an irrational reaction stemming from prejudice.

Again, you can't seem to get passed the idea that men are allowed to experience the full gamut of human emotions and that you have no right to tell them that what they feel is shameful or dangerous. Only men's actions can be criticized.

See my first paragraph.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Guess what? No-ones says you aren't allowed to hate! What they're saying is, hating an entire group of people for irrational reasons is something you shouldn't do! Especially if you are a group dedicated to equality.

1) Their reasons aren't necessarily irrational. They may have been severely screwed over and hate is a legitimate feeling following such events. 2) Equality doesn't mean "No hate". It means equal treatment. Again, hate itself isn't a bad thing, so long as the actions and policies you either enforce or advocate for aren't themselves hateful. Emotions without actions are neutral.

Every time an MRA complains about misandry, I'm going to tell them this.

That's fine, so long as its misandry in a context with no action. If the MRA is complaining that "VAWA is a misandric law" your retort is baseless considering VAWA is an action based on hate. Again, the emotion is neutral, the action is "the shitty thing to do".

If I was angry at you because you were black, that would be a shitty thing to do, because it's an irrational reaction stemming from prejudice.

Again, no it wouldn't, because you aren't "doing" anything. Your anger would be irrational, but that doesn't matter so long as no action follows from it. You can be "angry" at whoever you want, so long as you treat them the same as everyone else there is no problem.

See my first paragraph.

Again, you are full of shit. You do not have the right to police the thoughts and emotions of other. You can only judge their actions. Whether or not you think men have a right to experience "bad emotions" is irrelevant.

[+]Grapeban -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

So if someone thinks that gay people are scum, I'm not allowed to judge them for that opinion?

No, because their opinion is irrelevant so long as they never act on it. As a gay guy, I don't care that Billy Bob the Southern Baptist hates my guts, so long as he never threatens me, attacks me, or votes away my rights. Again, I can't stress this enough, an emotion which results in no action is neutral. No one is harmed by that emotion. Billy Bob hating me has NO IMPACT on my life.

Unless they have been screwed over by literally every woman in existence, hating all women is not justified.

Bullshit. That isn't how human emotion works and you know it (or maybe you don't considering you have no life experience). When people are forced into a damaging situation they will consciously and subconsciously work like hell to avoid that situation again. If that means feeling hate towards anyone who reminds you of the person who hurt you, then that's whats going to happen. In your bullshit version of reality, you would simply deny people from expressing their feelings of pain and hate. Guess what? That doesn't make those feelings go away. People have to express their feelings and work through them to recover.

[+]Grapeban -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Grapeban-1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

He's an asshole because being homophobic is assholish.

You are treating an emotion as the equivalent of an action. It isn't. Spitting on gay people is assholish. Voting to take away their rights is assholish. Not liking them isnt. Sure, he may be small minded, but so long as his actions are fair, his personal opinion is irrelevant. This may also come as a surprise, you have the right to dislike anyone for any reason you want. You may dislike people who wear glasses, but so long as you treat them the same, you aren't an asshole.

Um, I'm not trying to? I'm just saying, hatred of an entire group, like women, isn't justified or rational?

Emotions don't need to be justifiable or rational. Only actions do. Your argument this entire time have been trying to prevent men from feeling certain emotions because you, personally, don't like them. And, honestly, you don't like them because it scares you that you can't control mens thoughts.

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