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A Word About Patriarchy

[deleted] · 2014-10-04T07:28:09+00:00

The modern feminist usage of "Patriarchy" is an ideological construct created to fit the victim narrative. It is the unfalsifiable boogeyman...

[deleted]

October 4, 2014

5 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	A Word About Patriarchy
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	5
Comments	34
Date	October 4, 2014 7:28 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2i9ema/a_word_about_patriarchy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-word-about-patriarchy.995041 https://theredarchive.com/post/995041

Comments

[–]Kyteno 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Anthropology actually shows that our gendered division of labor was paramount to our success as a species, that matriarchy drew the same lines of disposability, et al, and patriarchy is clearly more successful, so... ;)

Incidentally, one of the biggest issues surrounding suffrage was that women voting would create a class of people who had a say in the law, but we're not subject to it; people felt this would cause social unrest, and it has. This may be the reason matriarchy was less successful.

At the end of the day, patriarchy means men held half of the power (overt), while women held the other half (influence). In a matriarch women hold all of the power, since the later half is largely biologically driven.

So, patriarchy seems like it was the best option, and you can't really say much bad about it; an evil patriarch is an individual, and a system cannot be indicted on the actions of one.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Supercrushhh 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Alzael -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Supercrushhh 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Supercrushhh 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

A society is not "set up". Nobody sits around and decides that they're going to create a patriarchal society to shit on women. It is simply, undeniably, the way it happened - not necessarily the shitting on women part, but society evolved in a way that gave socioeconomic power to men. If you can disprove this, please do. Please show me how the majority of societal power was not largely in the hands of men throughout history.

Women being exempt from the draft does not undermine feminism because feminism looks at the way a patriarchal society affects women. Turns up, there was, and still is, a whole lot of oppression going on. Feminism does not look at how a bunch of men sat around and picked out ways to oppress women, because that never happened.

Women were exempt from the draft because they were not men, whether they liked it or not. They were still fully expected to participate in wars in the ways they were allowed and expected to. Women did not have enough power to decide whether or not they should be exempt from the draft.

[–]Alzael -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is simply, undeniably, the way it happened

Actually it's very deniable. To go back to the previous topic. Women received the right to vote while having none of the responsibilities that men did. So if women had the power to vote with no strings attached,and men had the power to vote with strings attached......

It's a little hard to claim that it's men who are in the better position.

If you can disprove this, please do.

I don't have to.You have to first make the case that your argument is true. Otherwise I have little to disprove. Your lack of evidence is all that's needed to reject it.

Turns up, there was, and still is, a whole lot of oppression going on.

And I'm sure one of these days a feminist will get around to proving that.

Please show me how the majority of societal power was not largely in the hands of men throughout history.

Since I never said that,this seems something of a dishonest argument on your part.

Women were exempt from the draft because they were not men, whether they liked it or not.

Yes,because they had more value to society than men. And they certainly did like it. That's why you never saw them marching for it.

Women did not have enough power to decide whether or not they should be exempt from the draft.

They had enough power to get prohibition put through.Even without the vote. They had enough power to get the vote even though only about a third of women supported the idea.

They had enough power to do that. But not enough power to be able to join the army? Or is it more likely that they just didn't want to?

Because the power of women seems to be very oddly in fluctuation throughout the last century.When they want something men have they seem to be very powerful,when it comes time to do something that men have to do they suddenly seem to become very weak and helpless.

Funny that.

[–]Supercrushhh2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Women had no responsibilities that men did." So, in your opinion, what exactly did women do? Nothing? Men literally had all the responsibility? Women were just babymakers? What did women do?

You claim men had the better position. Since women had no responsibilities and did nothing, you are claiming that all the hardships that befell men were caused by men.

A patriarchal society is a society in which men hold power. You are saying patriarchal society is deniable, yet you contradict yourself in saying "I never said the majority of societal power was not largely in the hands of men". Pick one. Your inconsistency makes your arguments irrational.

Since you don't seem to understand the concept of oppression: Oppression is the inequitable use of authority, law, or physical force to prevent others from being free or equal. You've already made the claim that women had no responsibility, and you don't deny that men held the power. Perhaps you can understand how this came to be an impairment on women, and other social groups. You don't get to decide who has it "better". Feminism doesn't want women to be better than men. Feminism wanted women to have the same freedom as men.

You imply that it is unfair for men to be forced to go to war, because it is a less than favourable situation. Why would women march to be forced to go to war? That's ridiculous. Women participated in wars in other ways. The men in power decided that they would force their male citizens to go to war. You seem suspiciously silent about that. That's pretty dishonest.

A lot of women are in the army. Are you in the army? If not, why? Maybe you don't want to be? Surely it's your responsibility? If you're not in the army, well you're just as bad as women, then, according to your logic.

Women not conforming to your idiotic idea of equality does not make them weak and helpless. You seem to have a shoddy grasp on sociology and its mechanisms. Nothing is ever so simple as you seem to think it is.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The idea that an individual who has the power to send others to war, but who is not subject to war herself, is somehow "second class" is fucking ridiculous. Nope nope nope.~

Men and women were equally confined to "hyper-specific" gender rolls, the changes mentioned represent an expansion of the female roll, without a corresponding expansion to the male roll; in fact, when these argument were first being made, we were still executing men who didn't want to go to war.

Seriously though, you realize that men were expected to risk their lives, or be executed to get their right to vote, and while women may have gotten it later, it was free of any corresponding responsibility. In fact, men and women only had equal voting rights from 1975 to 1980, when men's right to vote, as well as have access to various other government services, was again tied to conscription.

[–]Supercrushhh 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The idea that an individual who has the power to send others to war, but who is not subject to war herself, is somehow "second class" is fucking ridiculous. Nope nope nope.~

How about the idea that women did not have the same rights to education, to work, to their bodies, to their earnings, to their children that men did? Still weren't treated as second-class citizens?

And women WERE subject to war. Women were part of the war machine at home. Women were nurses. Women were secretaries. And now, women volunteer themselves for any position that they are allowed. Women bore all the sons, brothers, fathers, husbands that went to war. Why the fuck would women choose frivolously to send their loved ones to war? Women lived in all the countries involved in the wars. How the fuck is "women weren't included in conscription" a good reason for women not to vote? That is fucking ridiculous.

Feminists wrote up the Equal Rights Amendment that would have included them in the draft. It was denied. Since then, there have been many attempts. All denied. However, women volunteer for the army. The draft is seriously one of the weakest argument ever against feminism and women's rights.

But, the draft may be a good argument for men's rights (no draft at all, or a draft that would include ALL citizens of the United States, providing standards would still be upheld for different factions - see, you can argue the point that women should be included in the draft without being inflammatory) and it may be a good argument against war.

As an argument against women getting the vote? Ridiculous.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

see, you can argue the point that women should be included in the draft without being inflammatory

You don't seem to understand that I am recounting arguments from the women's suffrage era, I'm not making my own; I apologize for not making that blatantly obvious, as you are clearly unfamiliar with that time.

How about the idea that women did not have the same rights to education, to work, to their bodies, to their earnings, to their children that men did? Still weren't treated as second-class citizens?

Only a tiny minority of men could exercise that right to education, let's not focus on the 1%; men were legally bound to work for women, this is the other side of that female privilege; women had greater bodily rights; women had a greater right to their earnings; and, women gave up children in exchange for alimony, tit for tat.

So, no, not second class by any stretch of the imagination.

Women were part of the war machine at home. Women were nurses. Women were secretaries.

Men are part of child birth, they drive to the hospital, and hold hands.

How the fuck is "women weren't included in conscription" a good reason for women not to vote?

This argument was made at a time when we were executing men for not paying for that right, why should women have gotten it for free? Men and women deserve equal voting rights. You know, equality and all.

Feminists wrote up the Equal Rights Amendment that would have included them in the draft. It was denied. Since then, there have been many attempts. All denied. However, women volunteer for the army. The draft is seriously one of the weakest argument ever against feminism and women's rights.

I'm guessing you've never read the ERA, because it would not have accomplished this, nor was it intended to. Equal rights != equal obligations. Feminists fought for women to be included in the draft much later on, but expected to be drafted into safe, non combat positions.

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[–]Kyteno 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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