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Baby boy screams so hard during his circumcision, that one of his lungs collapses and he almost dies. And he was initially given a local anaesthetic.

Consilio_et_Animis

February 2, 2016

82 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Title	Baby boy screams so hard during his circumcision, that one of his lungs collapses and he almost dies. And he was initially given a local anaesthetic.
Author	Consilio_et_Animis
Upvotes	82
Comments	47
Date	February 2, 2016 2:44 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/43s6g0/baby_boy_screams_so_hard_during_his_circumcision/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/baby-boy-screams-so-hard-during-his-circumcision.957165 https://theredarchive.com/post/957165

Comments

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]Deipnoseophist 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]aPseudonymPho 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be a pretty reasonable and genuinely concerned soon-to-be-parent, so I'll try and engage you in your uncertainties. Perhaps I can shed some light on the arguments you're being presented with and give a new perspective to consider.

Would you consider vaccinations relevant? What about braces?

Vaccines are a preventative tool with an incredibly high level of efficiency, that has little to no risk in most cases, does not damage, destroy, or remove any tissue or function from any part of the body, and most importantly, offers health benefits that CANNOT be gained ANY other way. Think about that last bit for a moment. When you vaccinate your children, you are giving them a health benefit that cannot be obtained through any other avenue, WITHOUT taking anything away. You are being given a unique benefit, at 0 cost.

This is not even close to the same as circumcision. Circumcisions efficiency is mediocre at best, and highly contested, while vaccinations is accepted globally by medical professionals everywhere. Circumcisions risk is mild to high, including all the risks of surgery (anesthetic complication, bloodloss, infection, mistakes made by surgeon, amongst many others) while the risk of vaccination effectively begins and ends with adverse allergic reaction. The benefits of vaccinations are such that fatal or life destroying illnesses have been eradicated. There isn't a single benefit to circumcision that is realized in infancy, or that cannot be obtained elsewhere.

Braces are not preventative, they're a treatment and corrective path, and thus outside the scope of an American, infant circumcision.

There are such things as preventative procedures to stop the development of serious issues.

There absolutely are. However, circumcision does not stop the development of serious issues, nor is it the best avenue by which these health concerns are combatted. On top of that, you are sacrificing your sons future sexual health and function, for the sake of a basically non-existent risk that can be handled just as easily if and when it might ever materialize into a problem. That's not to say that you will destroy your sons sex life; obviously many American men will disagree with you there. However there are undeniable and significant changes to the sexual functions and experiences a man can have that is caused by circumcision. At the absolute minimum, you are denying him the right to experience a variety of unique sexual sensations that circumcised man cannot and never will feel. While this sounds extreme and unbelievable, I can clearly outline these changes by going through the anatomy with you in detail.

This is really the tip of the iceberg, and I tried to keep things short. This issue is far deeper and more complex than you probably realize, but I applaud you for taking the time to seriously consider it. While I understand that you will make the decision, I strongly and confidently believe that when presented a complete picture of the cultural and social history / motivations for circumcision, the regional differences in perception, incidence, and need for circumcision, as well as the biological and sexual realities of circumcision, the choice becomes obvious.

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is why I am here! Thank you, I can not thank you enough for this logical, level headed, and tempered response. I am not on a crusade for or against circumcision, just want my bad arguments rung out as i am coming from an uninformed point of view. If i were to ask a Dr about this they have a vested interest in me doing the procedure, I need to hear a sincere argument from the other side, you are that argument, Thank You.

There isn't a single benefit to circumcision that is realized in infancy, or that cannot be obtained elsewhere.

This is the point that i find most disturbing, I have been leer of medical advice lately, but this freaks me out. If there is no benefit what so ever than we have a serious issue in the states, can no one make an argument FOR circumcision?

you are denying him the right to experience a variety of unique sexual sensations that circumcised man cannot and never will feel.

This is my argument that leaves me with the conflict to begin with. If there is no harm in leaving it, why not just let them decide when that are old enough to for them selves. I figure at the very least they will have to conscious awareness to be able to compare the before and after, at the very least they can then give and account to it's value.

I know I will have to make a countless choices on behalf of my kid, names, vaccines, Ferberizing, ect. I want to find the ones that have the largest impacts adn resolve them so I have a more resolved method of raising my children. I wanna have A LOT of kids, this is my first, so if I can minimize the failures here, it'll be a lot easier going forward. I can't escape I will do something barbaric and criminal to my kids eventually, but I wanna try to avoid as much of that as I can with logical for-though.

[–]aPseudonymPho 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

This is why I am here! Thank you, I can not thank you enough for this logical, level headed, and tempered response.

Hey not a problem at all. Thank you for your consideration and attention. I appreciate you providing me the chance to present my thoughts on this topic.

If there is no benefit what so ever than we have a serious issue in the states, can no one make an argument FOR circumcision?

Allow me to clarify; there ARE benefits to circumcision. To say there are absolutely NO benefits to anything is quite juvenile and ignorant. You can always find a benefit if you look hard enough and from the right perspective. This is why the issue is not a question of, "Are there benefits to circumcision?". The real question is, "Are the benefits of circumcision significant enough to justify forcing an irreversible and functional modification of an individual's sex organs upon them without medical indication that would otherwise justify it as a therapeutic treatment?". It is with this question, that circumcision ultimately fails to stand up to rigorous scrutiny.

The arguments for circumcision are many and varied;
- It's cleaner and lowers risk of infection (both UTI and STI)
- It's of overall lower risk to the individual, as you cannot injure or develop a disease in a body part you no longer have.
- Social / cultural justifications, like it's normal in America, it's more attractive to American women, it's part of one's religious faith, it's expected etc.

However, every one of them falls when examined intensely and objectively. For example, even if circumcision was the cleaner alternative STI's are far better prevented by safe sex practices, and UTI's are easily treated by antibiotics. Additionally circumcision often increases risk for other kinds of infections and problems, considering you're dealing with an open surgical wound in a diaper.

This is my argument that leaves me with the conflict to begin with. If there is no harm in leaving it, why not just let them decide when that are old enough to for themselves.

If this is your major conflict, it seems to me like you already know deep down what the answer is. If circumcision makes no sense to you and you have to scramble to find reasons to try and justify it, then why are we pushing so hard to normalize this practice? You're absolutely right that there is no harm in leaving it be in the vast majority of cases (just as there's no harm in leaving your childs ears alone). There is a reason the majority of the worlds men do not run to get circumcised. They understand the value and pleasure they get from their foreskin. It is a meaningful and purposeful part of their penis, it is not "extra", "dirty", or "dangerous" any more than any other part of your body is. It is only by denying boys the chance to ever experience their complete and full sexuality, that this practice is so blindly accepted. Ignorance is bliss, and many people work very hard to make sure we can continue to raise generation after generation of ignorantly circumcised boys who know no better.

I want to find the ones that have the largest impacts and resolve them so I have a more resolved method of raising my children.

Then treat this the same as any other medical choice. How many other surgeries can you elect for for your children on cosmetic, religious, or social grounds without medical necessity? None. If your child has some kind of health concern that absolutely necessitates this surgery, then you are making a choice based on the immediate health of your child. All other cases are not justified.

At any rate I appreciate you taking the time to hear me out, and hope that some of what I've said has resonated with you. While it's too late for us, it is not too late for our kids. The failure of our parents and the ignorance of that time doesn't also need to be your own failure. You can award your son the right to make his own decision about how he wants his penis to look, and how he wants it to feel without undermining your ability to be a loving and supportive parent. Just remember that you do not own your son. He will have to live with whatever you choose whether he likes it or not, and only one decision you might make when it comes to circumcision can later be changed by him if he doesn't.

Thanks again, cheers.

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

About 1% of males will suffer from phimosis by the time they're adults.

This is not to be confused with developmental phimosis, which is the natural state of the penis in young children, where the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis by synechia, not unlike how your nail is adhered to your finger and will slowly separate over time. (They have to rip this tissue apart before circumcision, by the way. usually done by introducing a probe into the foreskin and circling it around the glans to break the tissue.)

Of that 1% that reach adulthood and still suffers from the inability to retract the foreskin, whether it be because of stenosis of the preputial sphincter or what is called pathological phimosis i.e. massed inelastic scar tissue that prevents the foreskin from opening, only a small percentage—and decreasing as doctors become aware of less invasive treatments—require surgery and of those only a small percentage require circumcision.

In contrast, the rate of complications from circumcision is currently unknown. It's been estimated in certain studies to be as low as 0.02 and as high as 20%, depending on what is counted as a complicated and how long the study goes on. No study, as far as I am aware, has ever been done specifically on the rate of "botched" circumcisions as a focus, and other long-term complications that wouldn't be apparent until decades after the surgery has taken place. But the incidental evidence on the subject is

On the other hand, there is quite a long of evidence on the impact of circumcision on sexual function.

I am not unbiased, but I am well informed on the subject; though it is not my field.

As a starting point from the genital integrity perspective, I strongly recommend this video. Brian is a neuroethicist with Oxford and an all around brilliant guy. Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or would like some specific citations or links to full papers.

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You'll have to get the pro-circumcision opinion somewhere else. I could not do it justice as I have direct knowledge that would undermine any point I'm trying to make.

However, when you do find it, remember this video, as it provides context and nuance for many of the statistics cited. I would have a look at a pro argument and then research the anti reply.

A good example is the claim that circumcision reduced urinary tract infections by 10% in males.

That seems to be true. Except few if any pro-circumcision sites give you enough background in the issue to determine what that actually means and whether it passes a cost benefit analysis.

Information such as the fact that UTIs are many more times rarer in boys than in girls and easily treatable with antibiotics---and that that protection, in a boy, amounts to a reduction from 0.1% to 0.01% chance to acquire a UTI and only applies in the first two years of a man's life.

There is ALWAYS more information.

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

True medical circumcisions are incredibly rare, especially in countries that do not circumcise for non-medical reasons (culture, religion, habit etc.). e.g.: in Norway, zero male infants are circumcised and just one in every 17,000 adult males are circumcised.

You can watch an infant boy being masturbated here. He's given a forced erection, so then it's easier for the child sex-abuser to mutilate his penis:

https://youtu.be/yaaw7wivUN4?t=3m12s

You can watch a full mutilation here. The little boy will be raped by having a metal probe forced in-between his foreskin and the glans of the penis. The foreskin is adhered to the glans and birth, and does not separate until he is older. The rape-probe tears the two apart — rather like having a needle forced under your fingernail.

Then the boy will be tortured by having a clamp applied to his penis and his foreskin crushed. Then the child sex-abuser will mutilate his penis by amputating his foreskin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2PKdDOjooA

There's plenty more where that came from.

Enjoy!!

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]rg57 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MRA-automatron-2kb 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]FrozenLizards 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ekat_clan 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ekat_clan 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Consilio_et_Animis[S] 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Hypothetically you can, but it usually requires a predisposition.

Adults can have something called a spontaneous pneumothorax. This is where there are congenital blebs, or weak spots in the lungs, which can burst during exertion, or at seemingly random times. It is common in tall, thin, athletic young males, usually of Scandinavian descent.

I am unsure whether a child would require this. Infants do have much more fragile lungs, but I'm not sure if a normal infant would do this, or if it would require a predisposition. I would say it's possible, but I have no idea how likely.

I believe the premise was the fact that this pretty much 100% elective surgery can be life threatening. I think that's pretty much all that's needed to put a full stop to it. There's no acceptable level of risk when the procedure in question is not any type of therapeutic treatment.

[–]ChaosOpen 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe the premise was the fact that this pretty much 100% elective surgery can be life threatening. I think that's pretty much all that's needed to put a full stop to it. There's no acceptable level of risk when the procedure in question is not any type of therapeutic treatment.

True, but once you use evidence then you elect to have people focus on that evidence, so any reasons are lost. To say that a circumcision, something done regularly with no complications except in very rare circumstances, resulted in a pneumothorax looks more like fear mongering and may raise eyebrows when you say it.

Just say what you mean "I don't believe that it is a decision you should make for someone," this is no medical advantages and the only possible result could be no advantages or medical complications.

[–]throwthetrash15 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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