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[–]Adanu0 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Great use of sarcasm mostly.
[–]Snowfox2ne1 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Poe's Law at work.
[–]Mik3ze 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If real laws with jail time for law breakers don't stop someone from committing rape why would a snarky posting?
[–]RoosterCheese -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Theres 2 types of rape- opportunistic and sadistic.
The hope is that education will stop opportunistic rape- however some people just ...i guess naturally.... develop sadistic rape desires. The first can be stopped, the second....not so much.
So you are half-right.
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/17/how-to-prevent-it-starts-with-awkward-conversations-with-our-teens
[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh, good, you're going to edumacate everyone about rape culture. How adorable!
[–]NUMBERS2357 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
The people who put this out are so pro-men that they think men (without qualification) have "violent sexual urges" and the only question is whether they have the willpower to overcome them.
[–]RoosterCheese 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
The post is aimed at those who may be more likely to attempt opportunistic rape. It is attempting to shame/ enforce that it is not ok.
This strategy is not effective for sadistic rape- those who rape because they have a sick deep desire.
The post is attempting to mock the "all women" typical tips seen. It definitely evoked the correct response from you- but now you have to realize why they did it. To get everyone angry about rape culture and the stereotypes and blanket assumptions about either gender A or gender B.
[+][deleted] 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
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[–]Stripes1974 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
...i.e., changing society, not just men....because the problem is with society, and the solution will involve society and changing society. Men AND women are a part of society, so...
[–]NUMBERS2357 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't think this is actually true. I think it is aimed at men like me. It doesn't have anything to do with preventing anyone from raping anyone. It has everything to do with just being dickish towards men in general as a signalling thing. It's the same as some article, "why white men suck", written by a white man.
Honestly, it probably hurts the anti-rape cause, because if you want to target those "opportunistic rapists" then you just have to tell them that "XYZ is rape, and you'll get in trouble". This whole "we know you want to rape her, but don't" angle just turns the anti-rape message into a message of hostility that people will naturally be opposed to.
To get everyone angry about rape culture and the stereotypes and blanket assumptions about either gender A or gender B.
I very strongly doubt the intent here is to assert a stereotype about men in order to get people angry about stereotypes against men. Ask yourself, would the people who made this pursue that strategy for some other group, with this sort of earnestness? Put up a sign that says "black people are lazy" to "get everyone angry" and "start a conversation" about black stereotypes?
It definitely evoked the correct response from you- but now you have to realize why they did it.
This "well yeah we offended you but now time for you to have a teachable moment" thing is such BS. If someone puts something like this out, I'm just irrevocably not on their side.
[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
My point was mainly that this is the kind of poster and suggestions you see aimed at women. I agree with your points because thats exactly the point they are trying to make- this is ridiculous regardless of how the tips are framed, ie. if the tips are aimed to a man or to a woman. Just as a woman shouldnt be expected to carry a rape whistle , neither should a man. And both sides are pissed off about it.
[–]NUMBERS2357 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't think this is some sort of tongue-in-cheek, reverse-the-genders-and-how-does-it-feel thing. The same people putting this sort of thing out are the ones who talk about the need to "teach men not to rape". And the normal reaction to this sort of poster isn't that it's inherently ridiculous and shows the absurdity of other things; rather, the reaction is that it's some sort of bold truth-telling that reflects what society should really say.
The bolded part at the bottom that I originally took issue with, is clearly not meant to be satire. In fact it just straightforwardly asserts that men have violent sexual urges. They don't think it's ridiculous to say men are violent monsters just below the surface. They only think it's ridiculous to say someone other than men should be responsible for controlling it.
[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hmm, I think this is where we digress on the interpretation of the whole poster based on the "violent sexual urges" sentence.
I truly think they meant, "Rape culture assumes all men have terrible and violent sexual urges"; "rape culture is ridiculous". I think you took what they said to mean "We , as the people who wrote this poster, definitely think all men have violent sexual urges and therefore we are writing it on the poster".
I think because it was written in text makes it easy to misinterpret. And I think it was poor wording for a poster that is this controversional. I think it meant to say "rape culture portrays [insert false statement here] instead of rape culture portrays [men have violent sexual urges; rape culture says they cant control it].
I think the original intent of saying "violent sexual urges" was as a replacement for saying "rape".
Is it possible that a fair amount of the population have fantasies about rape that they possibly relieve by porn? I have no clue. I dont think its necessarily bad to hold a fantasy as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. That could be their interpretation, however I do not interpret the sentence that way.
But either way, even if gender A or gender B does have violent sexual urges, it doesnt make a difference. Sure, it made you pissed off, assuming you interpreted it correctly, but I have some pretty wild fantasies too. It doesnt mean Im a bad person, as long as I dont act on it. I think that is another point they were trying to satirize with the 5 points about not acting on rape urges.
Again, i dont know if this is the best way to communicate the issue.
[–]Mocha2007 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
/r/CrappyDesign
[–]Rasalom72 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Welp... there goes all my ideas of raping drunken dudes....
[–]MizterUltimaman 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Is this satire?
[–]Tammypons 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Why shouldn't women be forced to police their clothing behavior and drinks at all times? As a gay man I have to do the same thing. Why can't women?
[–]RoosterCheese 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
clothing doesnt affect if someone will rape you or not, you can wear whatever. i disagree with your opinion there. I dont know if this may be different for gay men. If you have some experience with that or studies on gay mens clothing affecting rape i am interested.
i disagree with the posters point about drinks- its actually really easy to take advantage of someone once you drug them and is an effective way of reducing rape chance. This is different than the clothing issue.
The point the poster is trying to make is to shame opportunistic rape- it is trying to say "why would you slip someone a roofie, that is not cool, shame on you". So instead of blaming women, you should be supporting the movement to say, "Hey person slipping the roofie, what the fuck are you thinking??!?!" instead of "Hey woman, your clothes are a bit rapey, you should probably wear a burqa".
3a. Women in saudi arabia get raped- and they dont wear anything nearly as liberal as the western world. They still get opportunistic rape under completely different context.
[–]Stripes1974 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So instead of blaming women, you should be supporting the movement to say
...that we as a society need to change what we do and how we "program" our children who will one day grow up and become adults. No, don't blame women-- but don't coddle women by making them "not responsible" for the choices they make that could potentially contribute to their safety or harm. Telling a person, male or female, not to drink and get black-out drunk, is not victim-blaming-- but there are plenty of "so-called" feminists who insist that they should be able to get black-out drunk if they want, and then they're not responsible for what happens if they are raped. While this is true on the surface, if the woman in question heeds the advice to not get black-out drunk, then they can avoid that particular situation that might lead them to be raped. That isn't victim-blaming; that's applying common sense.
So no, trying to take what should be applications of common sense, and making them nonsensical, does not "evoke" the correct response- it only serves to make the person twisting such common sense into an irrational person to avoid listening to; it does not in any way lead to the promoting of a discussion about what can help end the problem.
There are those-- usually "so-called" feminists-- who think that suggesting common sense to women to help them avoid rape does nothing to actually help. I disagree; if women did "travel in groups at night", and "watched their drinks to make sure no one spiked them" and other such things, then yes, it would help women (plural) be able to avoid rape, and rape of the "opportunistic" variety would indeed diminish.
But there are those-- usually "so-called" feminists-- who think that saying that women have any agency, any responsibility for their own safety, is "victim-blaming" and "making women have to deal with men's [[rapists']] inability to "not" rape". Outside of "opportunistic" rape, no rapist will be deterred by "teach men not to rape", nor by "twisting the suggestive narrative", nor by any logical and reasoned debate or argument. A true rapist will rape, because he (or she) wants to. And that is the truth that these "so-called" feminist will not face.
The "suggestions" to women are to provide assistance to them to help them avoid the "true" rapists.
It will take a reformation of society, not only men nor the mindset of only men, in order to eliminate "opportunistic" rape-- and that will only happen if women STOP blaming men, stop trying to "evoke the correct response", stop trying to cry "teach men not to rape", stop accusing every man of being a potential rapist and trying to victim-enable every woman, and instead, START working with men in order to help change the way we raise and teach our children how to interact with one another and the rest of the world.
[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Other than your tone, I agree with you on principle. I dont see how our comments were much different. The one issue i dont agree with is that the point is , "what about teaching those who would pursue opportunistic rape that WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU THINKING DONT DO THAT YOU CRAZY FUCK". There is more need for that, I mean whenever the issue comes up, and anyone tries to say "Hey, rape isnt cool. If the opportunity presents itself, dont take it". But anytime that comes up, the good men of the world come to the defensive and say what the hell, im not an animal, im not going to rape wtf. But they miss the point that this conversation needs to happen.
I completely agree on the sadistic rape- we still need to protect ourselves with common sense, but not with outdated beliefs. However, the emphasis should be on both opportunistic would-be rapists (and i dont know how you can identify a person as that, so oftentimes and unfortunately the blanket term male is used and im sorry that that is used) AS WELL AS "watch your drink".
My point on clothing not affecting rape still stands, unless there is some more studies that prove it wrong that i would be happy to read.
[–]Stripes1974 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't disagree with the basic arguments you pose here, at least in general. What I do disagree with is your assertion that
they miss the point that this conversation needs to happen.
The "good" men of the world-- as you say-- already understand the point you're trying to make- rape is bad, we should do our part to stop rape if and when we have an opportunity to do so, or do our part to report and prosecute rape when we're not able to prevent it. That is the point that the "good" men are trying to make; it is often the "so-called" feminists who refuse to acknowledge that "good men" understand this-- and some of the more extreme of the "so-called" feminists refuse to believe that "good men" truly exist.
Your assertion seems to imply that men don't realize that they contribute to the problem when they don't take action to prevent it. The reality is that men-- in general-- realize the futility of trying to be the "rape police", in much the same way that the U.S. cannot be the world police-- and so we do what we can to offer suggestions to the potential victims of rape-- women-- so as to help them to avoid rape when we're not able to prevent it or even properly report/prosecute it.
"So-called" feminists are the ones who miss the point-- that the conversation that needs to happen is one wherein they say,
"Hey, we have a problem with men who rape. We're not sure that the solutions we might come up with on our own, without help, will succeed. Why don't we work together to deal with this problem?"
And perhaps it's because I'm a man that I think this, but I think the reason why "so-called" feminists won't-- or don't-- make attempts to work with men is because of their ideals about "patriarchy"-- but not only can they not disassociate "patriarchy" from our current societal constructs, but they feed right into the ideals of "patriarchy" by instead of working towards their own positives, instead of working with men and asking for help from men when they have the need (or, if you want to look at it this way, using men to further their own agenda without doing to men what they like to claim that men have done to them for untold years), they say
"Hey, we have a problem with men who rape. You're men; you fix it while we sit back and continue to complain"
and in essence, they're "reinforcing" their own sense of "we're nothing without men/unless men make us into something".
The other conversation that needs to happen is, instead of throwing out the ubiquitous "1 in 6/5/4/3 women will experience a rape (-like situation) in her lifetime" statistic-- which is not a reliable and consistent statistic, among other reasons why I dislike it-- or saying "believe the victim! even if they're no evidence! even if she can't really remember the facts right!" or "only 2-8% of rape accusations are false"-- -- that is, instead of all of this rhetoric and making awful attempts to try to shame and guilt men for their reticence in becoming part of the solution to diminishing rape and sexual assault-- --the conversation that needs to happen is this:
"Rape happens. Sometimes the rapist is a sick psychopathic son of a bitch who needs to be castrated and then put down like the rabid fucking dog he is. And sometimes the rapist is a guy who thinks it's okay to fuck the drunk unconscious girl, or thinks that if she doesn't say "no" that it's okay, and we need to stop that kind of rape, so let's do that shit."
So we do agree, in general, in principle.
But you seem to think that the lack of communication lies simply with men. I contend that it is more with the "so-called" feminists, than with the men, but that if the "so-called" feminists stop trying to make victims out of every woman, stop trying to make rapists out of every man, stop trying to prosecute under a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset, and stop trying to pretend that the only people hurt in all of this are women, women, women, then perhaps they could get the men to be more willing to help fix the problem that exists in our society.
-- I say "so-called" feminists, because I do know some folks who are genuine feminists-- who want to advocate for women and help advance women, but not at the expense of men. "So-called" feminists simply want to advance the agenda of women, and don't care who the fuck they hurt or destroy along the way; they're the ones who say "the rights of the victim should trump the rights of the accused" and "guilty until proven innocent" and "I'd rather an innocent man go to jail, than let a guilty man go free"-- and yes, I have heard/read this, so I'm not making it up. If you really need "proof" of the mindset of these "so-called" feminists, here it is:
[–]McFeely_Smackup 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If someone is drunk, don't rape them
there seems to be an implied invitation to go ahead and rape sober people.
You dont eat rape accusations.
;-)
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[–]Adanu0 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Snowfox2ne1 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mik3ze 8 points9 points10 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoosterCheese -4 points-3 points-2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]NUMBERS2357 3 points4 points5 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoosterCheese 3 points4 points5 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
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[–]Stripes1974 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]NUMBERS2357 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]NUMBERS2357 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Mocha2007 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Rasalom72 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]MizterUltimaman 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Tammypons 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoosterCheese 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Stripes1974 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Stripes1974 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]McFeely_Smackup 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+][deleted] (1 child) | Copy Link
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[–]RoosterCheese 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link