I need help with debate

xNOM · 2015-05-18T01:27:10+00:00

Women flock to occupations once they become physically safe, low-risk, and have flexible hours.

I don't know anything about the brewery thing, but being a teacher used to be difficult. That's why it was prestigious. It required higher education, which was almost nonexistent. Albert Einstein had a hard time becoming a professor because there simply weren't enough University chairs. That's why he worked in the Swiss patent office.

Feminists will argue that women weren't allowed into higher education, but that is not the point. Teaching today pays less than engineering because of simple supply and demand. Women chose it because it has long term job security, is indoors, allows them to work with people, and is easier to become qualified for than higher paying fields. Even within teaching, women are more dominant in the easier jobs to qualify for (Kindergarten) with the fraction of men going up with older students.

Nursing is also female dominated but pays much better. This is because it is much more difficult to qualify for. Supply and demand.

Garbage collecting and computer programming are both male dominated. Supply and demand.

Torpedo_Borec · 2015-05-18T00:52:04+00:00

I always thought that teachers are considered less important than doctors and other profession simply because there are a lot more teachers out there that doctors, it's simply supply and demand, there were 7.2 million teachers in the United States according to census.gov in 2009, can you imagine how much the government would spend if they paid every teacher the same salary as a doctor? There are a lot more teachers now than there were in the 1500s, for example, so it's obvious that the profession would lose a lot of recognition, if everybody were doctors nobody would care about doctors anymore, the fact that more women are teachers now is probably just coincidental.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-05-18T00:24:35+00:00

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Juan_Golt · 2015-05-18T01:40:23+00:00

The counter arguments are numerous and obvious.

My advice is not to bother. People who don't want to acknowledge truth will always latch on to the next rationalization. Imagine that you find the perfect counter argument that utterlly refutes this persons position. Do you honestly think their next step is to say "gee I have got this completely wrong, thanks for the info!" Nope they will just go up one level and start over.

This kind of view is inevitable as it becomes more clear that the wage gap is mostly a result of indivdual choices.

UsernameIWontRegret · 2015-05-18T13:38:52+00:00

Simple economics.

Imagine the market for labor, there is only a fixed amount of jobs, creating a vertical demand curve. Now, imagine women enter the work force. The supply curve nearly doubles out to the right. This in and of itself devalues the job. Now that there are more people who qualify for it, the employer can get away with paying significantly less in salary.

Men, typically choosing money over interest, will leave the market in search for higher paying jobs elsewhere. Women however pick their job based on interest, and will likely not leave due to the lowered wages. This is why they get payed less (aggregate) and there are more women in professions such as teaching now.

As the generations go by, men are switching over to STEM fields because they pay more, women still pursue social services which has already suffered from this phenomenon.

Any questions? I'll answer them. God I love economics.

xNOM · 2015-05-18T01:40:31+00:00

On the high end of the worker spectrum, there is an additional dynamic:

For whatever reason, college-educated women choose to study less demanding subjects:

http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/

Notice the dot for "education"

rantan1618 · 2015-05-18T01:57:13+00:00

I would suggest asking this question in askanthroplogy or askhistorians just remove all the RPT stuff but ask the same question.

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-05-18T02:44:10+00:00

Don't dispute this. Point out the argument that they are making. Women are not making less FOR THE SAME WORK. Women are getting different pay for different work. "The Wage Gap" is a myth, it's mythical nature is the very foundation of this argument. Just simply winning this aspect of the debate will be a bigger win than most of us get.

You missed Veterinary Medicine. Veterinary Medicine is the MOST IMPORTANT one in that it show WHY. Male vets are after money. They are large animal and farm vets. They oversee the health of tens of thousands of pigs preping to be bacon. Female vets are overwhelmingly interested in playing with puppies and kittens and treating other pets. Once the path was cleared so that women could become vets with out any backlash so many women dogpiled into vet schools that they crowed the men out. Then so many women started graduating from vet school that they crashed the labor market for vets. At the same time they dramatically reduced the number of large animal vets, driving that market through the roof. Women that have graduated vet school could take jobs as large animal vets, but choose to stay in the over saturated market of pet vets. This over saturating of markets is why the regard and wages drop.

P13579 · 2015-05-18T03:17:41+00:00

The argument appears so contorted that it is irrelevant. If a profession reduces in value, for whatever reason, its value is reduced for both genders. The argument does nothing toward establishing their case. It sounds like they pulled it straight out of their arse. Maybe they are providing an example of why professions reduce in value when women start to participate in them. Too much half-arsed bullshit and not enough productive outcome. Hence, reduced value.

If they did engage more than one neuron in constructing that argument to try and justify it, its justification more hinges on “women getting paid less” rather than “women getting paid less than men”.

cymrich · 2015-05-18T04:22:32+00:00

the cynic in me wants to point out that they have no proof for their assertions so why should you require proof to refute them?

as others here have said though, its pointless to even argue with people like this. even if you do have proof to back yourself up they will nitpick everything looking for any possible reason to disregard the proof, or they will just disregard it for no given reason and tell you you're full of it... basically... they've already made up their minds and it's very unlikely they will be willing to have an open mind and accept that they are wrong.

it's just like the atheist (us) vs theist (them) arguments... atheists are willing to accept facts and proof and change their minds... if there is ever a way to prove a higher power really exists via scientific practices then atheists will gladly admit they were wrong... theists on the other hand come up with all sorts of arguments about why a higher power exists and how they have proof but of course they don't... and any argument over it is met with death threats and violence... sound familiar?

dingoperson2 · 2015-05-18T04:50:47+00:00

If the stated text happens, then that leaves that profession underpaid, and male-dominated professions overpaid.

Then women can simply choose to go into the overpaid professions. When they do, the salary for those would drop as well. In the end, all the salaries have dropped, leaving them relatively speaking unaffected.

And: They have no basis to say that it's because there are more women. It could also be because of greater supply of teachers, and lowered educational standards driven by a desire for reduced class sizes by having more teachers.

And: Men managed to keep salaries high when working as teachers. Why don't women manage that? That would probably piss them off.

davidrexs · 2015-05-18T06:50:31+00:00

Well it is kinda true that when women start going into professions that the value drops, But it has nothing to do with "the regard for the profession" and everything to do with supply and demand. If you double the workforce and the extra workers all flood into certain professions then obviously the wage is going to drop.

Supply and demand. Basic freemarket economics. Tell them to stop being fucking stupid.

tmone · 2015-05-18T13:12:49+00:00

I just wanted to say thank you all for your extremely valuable information. In the end, the argument when nowhere, as I was ultimately labeled a sexist asshole. Well, when it's summed up like that, it's very clear who in fact won.

Anyway, I am glad I have this place to learn and gain support from. You all have opened my eyes this past year. Thank you all!

_-_Dan_-_ · 2015-05-18T13:24:51+00:00

Interesting ... what about the changes that happen over time? After all, now we basically have education for everyone beyond being able to just read and write. (Almost) all children spend most of their childhood up to their late teens in school, something unheard off in earlier times, where extended schooling was probably restricted to the wealthy. So the profession itself changed over time, including training to be a teacher. It's something (almost) everybody can become.

I don't think that it's the amount of women in that profession (which is a problem in itself when talking about role models), but that the standards for teachers are quite low (in my country, the average grade of teachers when leaving school themselves is ... extremely low, they are not the smartest by a long shot).

So it's probably more "you pay for the quality you get" and judging what I have seen in school -- yep, there are some very good teachers, but there is also a lot of failed existences who basically never left school. And a lot of them want to become teachers, which brings the price down. Note that this has nothing to do with women per se. Many women might chose the job because it is naturally compatible with having children (at least, once they are in a school age).

Title	I need help with debate
Author	tmone
Upvotes	8
Comments	16
Date	May 18, 2015 12:24 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/36bdnp/i_need_help_with_debate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-need-help-with-debate.980009 https://theredarchive.com/post/980009

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