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PayPal hosts 'gender equality' panel ... without any women

ACGlasier

April 24, 2016
32 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/paypal-hosts-gender-equality-panel-without-any-women/ar-BBs7DuU?li=BBnb7Kz?ocid=ansmsnnews11
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Post Information
Title PayPal hosts 'gender equality' panel ... without any women
Author

ACGlasier

Upvotes 32
Comments 20
Date April 24, 2016 2:36 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4g6hyb/paypal_hosts_gender_equality_panel_without_any/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/paypal-hosts-gender-equality-panel-without-any.951036
https://theredarchive.com/post/951036
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Comments

[–]MalusMalorum 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Eh, how is it a problem when the panel is about discussing things WITH those male leaders?

What bothere me most abut this is that no one seems to ponder the idea of just inquiring about why they have no included women, instead of going straight for the outrage.

We have a real problem when people always will jump to the "bad faith" interpretation. Basically, they are bullying someone who is already mostly on their side, and for what? To demonstrate their power, or to more firmly establish their moral monopoly?

[–]babno 17 points18 points19 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Now fellows, we ourselves have gotten butthurt over when men are completely lacking from various diversity and equality events. And given there are 3 women on the executive board there's no reason at least one of them shouldn't have been included. Two way street, and if we're to be better than the feminists we shouldn't dismiss things like this.

And yes, pay gap not real and all that, but there is an earnings gap and a discussion on encouraging women to work harder and allowing men to take more time off for family reasons are legitimate items of discussion for such a panel.

[–]KrisK_lvin 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

legitimate items of discussion for such a panel.

Why shouldn’t men be capable of discussing issues of equality without women being present?

Ideas and knowledge aren’t biologically inherited or determined.

There are many male obstetricians with vast and valuable knowledge of pregnancy and childbirth despite not having the necessary equipment to ever be mothers or give birth themselves.

A male MP is just as capable (or not) of representing women constituents as he is male ones.

The idea that we must have women as 50% of parliament is absurd on those grounds.

we ourselves have gotten butthurt over when men are completely lacking from various diversity and equality events

Have we? Like when? Also, if we have, I think you’ll find it was the subject matter of the discussion that will also have made a difference.

[–]babno -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

There's a difference between capable and ideal. Yes men could theorize about what goes on inside a womens head that dissuades her from working more, and they could get it completely right and we can throw a big parade. But much more likely they will get some things wrong or miss some reasons. Yes there are male obstetricians with a great deal of knowledge, but the source of all of that knowledge was women, and that knowledge has been vetted, edited, updated, and standardized over decades, which was not done for things like if a women told one of the male panelists that she chose lower pay because not enough babies are sacrificed to Cthulu.

In the end this rates perhaps a 2 out of 10 on my scale of caring, but there was zero cost and substantial potential benefit to inviting the 3 female board members, which more perturbs me as an engineer than an egalitarian. Better performance for zero cost, even my bumbling oafs of a board for my company would take advantage of that.

[–]KrisK_lvin 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

There's a difference between capable and ideal. Yes men could theorize about what goes on inside a womens head …

Sorry to interrupt you there - but what makes you think that any single individual woman would be any better at “theoriz[ing] about what goes on inside a womens head …” than any other human being?

Does a human being with a penis make you understand the problem of other human beings with penises better than anyone else? I think not.

So why would having a vagina make one particular woman better able to interpret the needs of all women?

It doesn’t.

At all.

Yes there are male obstetricians with a great deal of knowledge, but the source of all of that knowledge was women ..

Bollocks.

That knowledge comes as a result of inductive methods of research; the scientific method.

All obstetricians - male or female - do not listen to wizened wise women in huts on the slopes of the Andes … or they might do, but that isn’t the main source of their knowledge base which is scientific investigation.

The source of that knowledge was only women in the sense that they will have interviewed women for their perspectives, but in large part the knowledge came from observation of women.

[–]babno 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

what makes you think that any single individual woman would be any better at “theoriz[ing] about what goes on inside a womens head …” than any other human being men?

Men and women are different, biologically and culturally. Read some testimonials of trans people. Emotions are much more powerful for women, they are less inclined to take risks, and there's a vast difference in how other people treat you as well. They have a different viewpoint that will contribute to such a discussion.

That knowledge comes as a result of inductive methods of research; the scientific method.

And the subject of those research projects was, drumroll please, women!!! It was the bodies of women that were studied and tested, it was women who took drugs and procedures, it was women who reported the effects of those treatments. Men may have theorized some of it first, but in the end it had to be proven true by a woman. Likewise, a man can theorize that women don't get higher pay because X, but it could be wrong and it's only a theory until a woman says "yes that's why I chose to not go for higher pay". A woman doesn't have to theorize, because she already made that choice and knows why.

[–]KrisK_lvin 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Men and women are different, biologically and culturally.

Biologically, certainly, but culturally? From a certain point of view, yes OK, a case can be made for a degree of difference - but let's not exaggerate. The cultural difference between men and women is nuanced, not vastly different,

And besides, the specific subject in this case is ‘gender equality’ - on that specific subject, there is absolutely no reason why a discussion is invalidated by having a panel of all men.

Read some testimonials of trans people.

Why? What would that prove?

A transman is not a man, but a transman; likewise a transwoman is not a woman, but a transwoman. This is true for many reasons, but one key one is that the categories trans/cis would not exist at all if there were no distinction between a woman and transwoman.

Emotions are much more powerful for women, they are less inclined to take risks, and there's a vast difference in how other people treat you as well.

This is true to a degree, but not nearly so large a degree as you appear to think from this statement.

They have a different viewpoint that will contribute to such a discussion.

Every individual has a different viewpoint - why should having a vagina or a penis be the most significant factor? And what makes you think there would be a uniformity of opinion from a group of men based on their genitals?

And the subject of those research projects was, drumroll please, women!!!

And? This is hardly the crucial point you seem to think it is so the sense of triumph is rather presumptuous.

Have you ever heard of Louis Washkansky? No? Well, this was the man who received the world’s first successful heart transplant in 1967.

It was his body that was operated on and yet - "drumroll please [sic]" - he was a grocer and knew fuck all about hearts or surgery.

Men may have theorized some of it first, but in the end it had to be proven true by a woman.

You’re an asshole, mate - fuck off.

[–]babno 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The cultural difference between men and women is nuanced, not vastly different.

I think the vast majority of people, but here and the general population, would disagree strongly with you. We treat women vastly different, so much so that it bleeds into our supposedly just unbias justice system to the tune of 50% shorter sentences. And that's after steps are taken to eliminate differences, the general population and day to day interactions are even more different.

there is absolutely no reason why a discussion is invalidated by having a panel of all men.

When did I say it invalidated it? I said, repeatedly, that they would add value to the discussion at zero cost.

Why? What would that prove? (to read trans people stories)

99% of the population can not tell the difference between a women and trans women, and thus will treat them exactly the same. Thus trans women are able to give an accurate representation of first hand experiences of interactions between people.

This is true to a degree, but not nearly so large a degree as you appear to think from this statement. Emotions.

We pump female hormones into males and they say emotions are much more powerful. Yes this is a crude approximation and not the real thing, so logically emotions are actually much much much more powerful for cis women vs cis men.

risks

We have many rock solid studies confirming women take less risks. It's a basic result of evolution and present in many species besides our own. Inform yourself before making assertions such as that.

Every individual has a different viewpoint - why should having a vagina or a penis be the most significant factor? And what makes you think there would be a uniformity of opinion from a group of men based on their genitals?

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth. I never said it was the most significant factor, but it is a significant factor, and men and women both have unique experiences that the other side will never fully know, at least not without great effort and/or being trans. And I never said that anything was shared among a gender, I said there are experiences unique to a gender. I can't do a helicopter dick, but some men can, while zero women can, and thus it is an experience unique to males even though I can not do it even though I am a male.

Louis Washkansky

False equivalency. He had need of a new heart though, and if he didn't then it wouldn't have gotten the first heart transplant.

You’re an asshole, mate - fuck off.

Name calling is unproductive.

[–]KrisK_lvin -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Name calling is unproductive.

It’s kind of funny though.

[–]babno 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

True enough. Always amusing to watch the desperate with nothing valid behind their argument result to attacking the person. It's early but I want to say that's the ad hominem logical phalacy which makes your third.

[–]KrisK_lvin 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Always amusing to watch the desperate with nothing valid behind their argument result to attacking the person.

Ooh, put the handbag down dearie!

… ad hominem logical phalacy which makes your third

It’s not that you can’t spell fallacy - that might have been a pun - but it’s that like a shocking number of assholes on the Internet you have absolutely no idea what their proper function is how to apply them properly.

I am sick to fucking death of pricks who think there is any serious intellectual merit or rigour in running down a list of fallacy descriptions and claiming willy-nilly that they’ve ticked off a bunch from their list - which any schmuck can look up on Google.

The way you and people like you spray ad hominem, and straw man and false equivalency and tu quoque and whatever else is on their list as if it actually signifies anything at all.

You can’t just call something a fallacy at random and assume you’ve ‘won’ you fucking prick.

Swearing is much funnier and you’re a tedious little turd.

That’s the only fucking reason why I’m not fucking interested in fucking engaging with you beyond this you fucking fucklord.

[–]babno1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I responded to your points with actual data in a calm manner. Rather than refute the argument with anything of meaning you attack me with personal attacks. Is that not the very definition of ad hominem?

[–]KrisK_lvin1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

She’s back.

Is that not the very definition of ad hominem?

No, it isn’t. I’m not swearing at you as a diversionary strategy in order to persuade a disinterested third party that you are the kind of person whose arguments cannot be trusted because you are a morally corrupt deviant, a weakling, and so on - that’s how ad hominems are actually used.

Flipping off a driver who has just dangerously undertaken you by coming up fast on the inside lane is not an ad hominem - it’s an insult intended to let you know that you think the driver is a fucking asshole.

Likewise, I am calling you an asshole, a fucklord and tedious turd, etc. because I’m insulting you.

And I’m insulting you because you’ve mistaken me for someone who actually gives a fuck what you think.

True enough, I keep replying against my better judgment, but I felt like it because wankers that tediously reel off lists of logical fallacies - however they spell the latter word - really get on my fucking tit end.

[–]mikesteane 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So they're getting hammered for their efforts to suck up to the female privilege industry. That's what happens if you supplicate.

[–]rg57 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For some reason I read this as "... without any men" and I was going to comment "who cares".

That's still my comment. What matters is the quality of the panel, not the identity.

[–]Hap-e 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You guys are letting the echo chamber take hold of you. Sure, it's nice that it's not "no men allowed" this time, but there should be someone from every affected group present. If you're celebrating tbat there are no women present, you're inviting an SRS post and dismissal of any subject matter. Same as if you had an all-white racial equality meeting. Nobody will care what comes out of either.

[+]Oscarbaileys 10 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Why would they need women on the panel?

[–]rg57 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They wouldn't.

[–]viper_myman -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All women are experts on sexism, duh! /s

[–]GuyAboveIsStupid 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And?

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