Pro circumcision views on this sub

PowerToAnnihilate · 2019-04-17T17:51:00+00:00

I see this from time to time... recently the exposure to the issue is that 21 year old man's suicide from circumcision according to his words. Comments...

[–]DJ-Roukan17 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]PowerToAnnihilate5 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

because some of the people here are just off the deep end circumcision bad, incapable of nuance to the point that they are willing to say that yeah, this guy should have killed himself.

nobody said that... If I'm wrong quote it. Seems like a complete strawman to me.

It's circumcision derangement syndrome, based on tribalism and groupthink.

Are you opposed to FGM? How about child abuse? Circumcision is harmful and kills people, and it's an actual tribal, group-think practice (religion) that has no place in a civilized country that values human rights.

the guy had pain. It was his own fault, or a combination of his and the doctors fault.

Right if he never cut himself he would never have had pain.

There are such things as pain pills in the world. I would rather he had his whole unit chopped off but was still alive.

????

My friend has bone cancer in his lower back, he lives in constant pain, but he lives.

great. Some people are able to cope better than others. So what?

[–]headingtoshore-2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate6 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

you believe that an adult's decision to undergo surgery is comparable to child abuse?

No, I beleive circumcision in general is genital mutilation and is therefore like FGM

and when you say FGM, if it's an adult woman, who chooses it, I'm fine with it.

and I said I'm fine with an adult male choosing to circumcise himself, but it should be a last resort to treat a medical condition.. this clearly is a case of a quack doctor.

ya know, some people look at the male suicide rate and think it's an issue, a bad thing.

you mean like me? I care about the guy who died fuckstick lol

then there's guys like you, oo he had pain, let's not second guess him.

Well you don't seem to even want to acknowledge his reason for doing it. Respect the dead. If I could have helped him I would have tried, he's already dead what do you want me to do? Necromancy?

[–]headingtoshore1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]PowerToAnnihilate3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Fine. Me too. So basically what happened here is you just attacked without reading what it was you were attacking. You saw the word circumcision and went for child abuse and fgm, you never bothered to see what the hell was going on.

I think I made myself very clear lol You just seem angry

circumcision derangement syndrome.

in other words, caring about human rights... how exactally is this supposed to shame me?

Not ALL circumcision is bad.

never said it was, not all FGM is bad... but the vast majority of both ARE and it should be illegal for minors.

. And calling it genital mutilation is like calling a tattoo skin mutilation, or a piercing ear mutilation or nose mutilation.

then why do we call FGM mutilation? Go yell at them too

Now, if you get a tattoo and you regret it, don't kill yourself, please. If you get a nose piercing from an incompetent quack and your nose gets infected and falls off, and you have pain, please do not kill yourself.

Seems like you are the one mocking the dead guy not me tbh.

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[–]Yndrd19841 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

they are willing to say the suicide was caused by the circumcision

Well, that does seem to be the position taken by the article, so it's hard to blame anyone here for that.

that they start talking about child abuse in a discussion of an adults decision to undergo elective surgery

The article brings up children's rights, and Alex brought up children "never be[ing] able to fully comprehend what has been taken away".

The fact that his "informed consent" wasn't that well informed is also relevant to a discussion of people who haven't given any consent at all.

And in any case, why is that difference important? It's the same kind of surgery, so his experience is at least somewhat relevant to discussions about choices made by (or for) other prospective patients.

using the language of modern fractured tribalistic discourse is not mockery

So your lame derision doesn't count as mockery because you're not creative enough. OK then.

Use small words pls, I'm a moron and all.

Yes, but poor reading comprehension doesn't excuse the rest of your behavior.

[–]headingtoshore1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, that does seem to be the position taken by the article, so it's hard to blame anyone here for that.

I blame. There are many articles posted here that take positions just as harmful and incorrect as this one does, there is more to reading than comprehension, one need not uncritically accept what it says in the article.

To say that he killed himself because of the circumcision is to justify the suicide.

No suicide is justified.

No person having arrived at the point that they are writing a suicide letter to their mother and timing it to be delivered after their death, is seeing clearly the causes of their issues or the options available to them.

No man has pain in his penis that is equivalent to or in any way justifies the pain of a mother who's son has taken his life, who has received such a letter.

I offer no lame derision, no mockery. I am happy to be insulted by men who believe that suicide may be an option.

[–]Yndrd19841 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

... one need not uncritically accept what it says in the article.

Sure, but one need not be "on a hair trigger, to the extreme that they are willing to say the suicide was caused by the circumcision" to take an article at face value. There's a difference between suggesting skepticism towards a click-bait headline and accusing anyone and everyone who agrees with it of being credulous and overly emotional.

To say that he killed himself because of the circumcision is to justify the suicide.

No, that doesn't follow. When someone gets drunk and runs over a jogger we try to prevent drunk driving, we don't say that hitting the pedestrian was justified by the drunk driving.

No suicide is justified.

That's your opinion, other people have theirs. Forgive me for being blunt, but is seems that your strong feelings on the subject are clouding your reason to the point that you're misinterpreting other people.

Even the people here who think that suicide is a personal choice that nobody else should get a say in wish that this one should have been prevented. But because they want to prevent this kind of thing by improving ethical practices in the medical system and keeping patients informed, and you just want to keep saying "suicide is wrong" until everyone tells you that you're right, we find ourselves here.

I offer no lame derision, no mockery.

If I were to suggest that you have 'suicide derangement syndrome' I'm pretty sure you'd count that as mockery, as would I.

[–]headingtoshore1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No actually i would guess that you were suicidal.

There are a lot of dead men, victims of suicide, and a lot of people trying to figure out why, and to identify them before they have taken their own lives.

The main thing they can do is ask the living. Seems reasonable. So they ask, but an odd thing happens, even tho vastly more men than women commit suicide, vastly more women than men respond to the questions as tho they are suicidal.

You are not far off when you suggest suicide derangement syndrome, idk if I'll cop to deranged, but a mild obsession yeah.

So I talk a lot to men, in person and online, and I consider the following plausible hypothesis.

Those men who are likely to be counted soon among the dead, are the ones to whom suicide seems like the correct response to certain of lifes problems.

adding

to your drunk driving comment

When someone gets drunk and runs over a jogger we try to prevent drunk driving, we don't say that hitting the pedestrian was justified by the drunk driving.

In fact that does justify the death as having been caused by the drinking. This was actually policy at one time, if a driver had been drinking they were held to be not responsible for a death they had caused. there is an old medical procedural tv show 'Quincey" that featured an episode where a man had hit and run, and killed someone, and then gotten drunk after the fact so that he could claim to have been drunk at the time of the accident and get off.

In the episode, Quincey was able to show that the driver had actually been sober, because he found a small amount of blood in the mans knee that had become sequestered at the time of the accident and this blood contained no alcohol.

odd how attitudes change.

[–]Yndrd19841 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No actually i would guess that you were suicidal.

Not for over a decade now, but not a bad guess.

You are not far off when you suggest suicide derangement syndrome, idk if I'll cop to deranged, but a mild obsession yeah.

And I'm sure some of the people here would admit to an obsession about circumcision. If we want to make progress on both we have to at least be able to work with people who are on our own side, even if we're more concerned about our own different areas.

This was actually policy at one time, if a driver had been drinking they were held to be not responsible for a death they had caused.

At least during the time I remember, people either weren't responsible or were only mildly responsible for accidents, and drunk driving accidents were just another category of (worse than average) accident. If you got drunk, shouted "I'm going to kill you, Bart!", and plowed through his trailer home, that would still be murder. Getting plastered and swerving into him was treated more like falling asleep behind the wheel - jail and a fine, not prison.

there is an old medical procedural tv show 'Quincey" that featured an episode where a man had hit and run, and killed someone, and then gotten drunk after the fact so that he could claim to have been drunk at the time of the accident and get off.

Yeah, "DUI" was one of its most influential episodes. Unfortunately you're missing an important detail: the lawyer didn't get drunk after an accident to get off, he got drunk after deliberately running a guy down to make it look like an accident. The problem revealed by the test wasn't really that he was sober, it was that if he was sober then the collision couldn't be rationally be explained as anything other than a deliberate act, he had faked being wildly drunk before the accident, and managed to chug a half-dozen drinks worth of vodka between the time of the accident and the police arriving.

odd how attitudes change

Yeah. Drunk driving laws might have changed the most, but plenty of other road-safety stuff has become more stringent as well. Around the time that Quincy M.E. was broadcast I frequently saw kids jumping up and down in the backs of station wagons while they went down the highway.

[–]headingtoshore1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thats a lot of text, you may have seen quincy more recently than I have - I would have been one of those kids bouncing around in the back around that time - but.

Now we consider the drinking to be the cause of accidents. Almost as if chugging a few beers and getting behind the wheel amounts to depraved indifference to human life or even attempted murder.

what happens in the article and in some of the earlier discussion in this thread is a precursor to that kind of attitude on circumcision OF CONSENTING ADULTS.

and it's becoming a standard internet rhetorical tool, 'claim it causes suicide'. Transphobia? causes suicide. Bullying? causes suicide. It gets to the point where you say something that some other person interprets as transphobic or as bullying, and they feel they have the moral high ground to call that 'attempted murder'.

this is literal violence, you are literally murdering trans people by saying that, hundreds of them will kill themselves after reading this.

Now there are 'hate speech' laws, to protect people. because in a way similar to drunken driving, the speech is seen as a kind of attempted murder.

And I will fight against the coming of a time when a cosmetic surgeon having performed a legal procedure upon a willing adult can be charged with such a crime.

[–]Yndrd19841 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Almost as if chugging a few beers and getting behind the wheel amounts to depraved indifference to human life or even attempted murder.

Attitudes have certainly changed a lot. Unfortunately the image you put in my head was someone getting into a perfectly understandable accident, say a kid darting between cars gets hit and killed, and the sober driver starts shouting "I swear, ossifer, I never drives sober! (hic)" in an attempt to make things better.

it's becoming a standard internet rhetorical tool, 'claim it causes suicide'

Yeah, some people turn tragic outliers into thought terminating cliches and overreaction. On the other hand, taking the opposite extreme and saying that there's no connection between severe, long-term bullying and poor emotional health would be just as absurd.

And I will fight against the coming of a time when a cosmetic surgeon having performed a legal procedure upon a willing adult can be charged with such a crime.

As long as 'willing' means 'informed consent', and 'informed' mean that they understand that they're irreversibly changing a sensory organ and it may affect their sex life, I will too. Since we're still fighting to keep the government from funding the procedure on non-consenting people I think that will be a long time from now.

If you lived in a country where more than half of the men were eunuchs, and there were government programs to make sure parents could get their teenagers neutered on a whim, how worried would you be that the anti-castration movement was going to make it harder for men to willingly get vasectomies?

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[–]Yndrd19841 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You have indeed driven us far afield, into

pointless discussion about what 'really' causes anything.

You're the one contesting how the word 'cause' was being used, and the one that brought up "internet outages cause suicide?". The only honest responses I could give to that would be either a rather long-winded philosophical essay about the nature of different types of causation and/or to tell you that you're overreacting to people's ability to use language flexibly while still communicating well.

and irrelevant discussion of

laws against 'practicing medicine without a license', consent forms, ethics panels, and all the rest

I'm not sure how that's irrelevant, given that many people here want more information in their informed consent, and that lack of knowledge has been suggested as a contributing factor in his decision.

I remain firm and unrefuted on my points.

One does not 'refute' an interpretation, nor an opinion. While I disagree with both, I do think that both ideas should be part of the discussion. I hope that next time you are better able to advocate for them.

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[–]Yndrd19844 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Other people want to engage in serious topics, like longevity, discrepancies in education funding or other important topics but the pervert parade just acts as a derail.

You're perfectly welcome to post to those threads, or start one of your own. Just because you lack the maturity to handle certain subjects doesn't mean the rest of us can't discuss the subject. Also, shouting "Silence, pervert!" on an anonymous forum seems especially useless.

It doesn't really matter to people who are on the fence about it.

I'm pretty sure that realizing that the foreskin isn't "just a useless flap of skin" but has quite a bit of differentiation and is a significant part of the penis's ability to provide pleasure might sway some people. You know, ones with open minds.

long string of insults redacted

You've spend quite a lot of time trolling, apparently over a single topic, which suggests that you're projecting your feelings about yourself on the same or a closely related subject onto others. You also use a lot of language surrounding feeling of revulsion and disgust. What can we learn from that?

[–]PowerToAnnihilate9 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	Pro circumcision views on this sub
Author	PowerToAnnihilate
Upvotes	22
Comments	44
Date	April 17, 2019 5:51 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/beat7t/pro-circumcision-views-on-this-sub/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/pro-circumcision-views-on-this-sub.1626092 https://theredarchive.com/post/1626092