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Narcissism vs solipsism

[deleted]

February 13, 2014
4 upvotes
/r/PurplePillDebate

A quite simple question. According to the TRP definitions of these words, what is the difference between solipsism and narcissism?

EDIT: I'm gonna try to round up some definitions of solipsism from TRP. Might help.

  • Solipsism is personal validation

  • Solipsism is apparent when a woman tries to punish her ex by telling him she got pregnant by another man

  • Solipsism is a presumption that ones experience is the universal one and it entails indifference to anything external that doesn’t affect them directly and personally

  • Solipsism means being mostly concerned with how things and people affect oneself. In other words, their worlds begin and end with themselves.

  • Solipsism is when a fat person prefers to be referred to as "normal", "average" or "beautiful".

  • Solipsism is relying on personal experience instead of larger, rational, more empirical meta-observations.

  • Here is a comment implying that solipsism is a more extreme version of narcissim.

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Post Information
Title Narcissism vs solipsism
Author

[deleted]

Upvotes 4
Comments 38
Date February 13, 2014 3:15 PM UTC
(12 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1xt1o8/narcissism_vs_solipsism/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/narcissism-vs-solipsism.286218
https://theredarchive.com/post/286218
Red Pill terms in post
narcissismsolipsismthe red pillvalidation

Comments

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

There was a post someone did that defined "solipsism" correctly, from a philosophical point of view. It was really great, I thought it was on PPD but I can't find it. TRP has overloaded that word with a ridiculous definition plucked out of thin air, it makes the grammar Nazi in me want to kick a puppy. Not grammar exactly, but when "decimate" was deemed correct use meaning the equivalent of "nearly completely destroyed" I had to call in sick.

"Solipsism" the way used by TRP is like the word "smurf" used by the Smurfs. Smurfing smurf she smurfed it smurfily.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Before TRP I only knew it as a methodological consideration or dilemma. Not like "I'm the only thing that exists" but "Everything I perceive is filtered by my consciousness therefore the only really pure source of knowledge is my consciousness".

[–]angatar_1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the mega-post on solipsism, for those wondering.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

An important insight from linguistics is the massive trove of evidence that "prescriptive grammar" is illusory. What people consider to be the most 'correct' phonetics, symantics, and grammar changes rapidly across decades. The process of "incorrect" or new language structures overtaking old ones is probably impossible to stop and the natural course of events in human language. People often credit Shakespeare with having a tremendous effect on the English language, and his plays were full of dick jokes. It's the normal evolution of human language for a group to reappropriate a word like "solipsism" and give it new meanings.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

By definition they are completely different.

Narcissism is that everything must revolve around someone. The person feels they deserve everything they desire.

Solipism is more about the picture in a woman's mind is correct, and anything that deviates is unsure and in some cases wrong. It's important to TRP because the idea is that if a man plays a role that's already running in the lady's head she will sleep with them without hesitation. So when she's not sleeping with the man, the first thought is that he's not playing the role in her head. From TRP's perspective that's alpha.

For that matter someone could be narcissistic and solipsistic, and vice versa or they could be both at the same time.

[–]polyhooly15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

How is that definition of solipsism and different than how TRP views, well everything? I have repeatedly been told here that as a woman, my perspective on my own experiences, opinions, and likes and dislikes is invalid, that Red Pillers know more about me than I do myself. This is because TRP is, according to Red Pillers, an objective analysis of women, sex, and relationships . They know its objective fact because their own experiences confirm it.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not.

I think Narcissism is a mistake. Because narcissism is a clinical disorder. If women were all narcissistic, then women are all have mental disorder. I have little problem with that that train of thinking. :)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Consider the difference between the following two statements: "You're making me angry." "I feel a surge of anger when you bring up topic X."

The former statement incorporates a conclusion whereas the latter statement states an observation. Only the latter is necessarily valid. As people we generally hold many unnoticed - almost automatic - assumptions which prevent us from making definitive statements about our own internal natures. Certainly I do not even notice the sources of most my emotional reactions, which makes it extremely difficult to even begin scrutinizing my cognitive state. We do not have direct and automatic awareness of our cognitive processes.

While we may now ourselves better than other people do, we do not have complete knowledge of our own minds. Even beyond the things we don't notice, we have powerful cognitive biases which make it difficult to know we're not fooling ourselves. If you google a bit you can find a psychological study in which they found people literally lost the ability to perform basic reasoning skills (like addition) when presented with data which went against their political beliefs. Our brains literally try to shut down when we or other people challenge our assumptions.

People trying to understand your behavior from the outside might have plausible sounding hypothesis, but we all understand these hypothesis aren't really valid unless we can test them and use them to make useful predictions. Similarly, you might have really good reasons for why you've done action X, but those justifications may not be what REALLY spurned you to commit the action. Whether we're coming at the problem internally or externally, we must be conservative in accepting theories or conclusions.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Okay. I haven't really seen that definition of solipsism in TRP before and I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. I don't think TRP advocates fulfilling women's desires? Usually instead it's suggested that women don't actually know what they want and need a man to show them or something along those lines. Anyways, this is a definition from a top voted submission on TRP

If I had to pick a random word to describe women, one of the ones I could choose is “solipsistic.” Solipsism is defined according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary as “a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing” or “extreme egocentrism.”

It’s no accident that American women and other women from Western, feminist countries are utterly self-absorbed and ignorant.

Virtually all women in the U.S. suffer from the delusion that men find the same qualities attractive in them that they find in men.

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1n6aaq/the_eternal_solipsism_of_the_female_mind/

Based on these quotes, can you see how it seems very similar to narcissism? I mean the fundamental part of narcissism is thinking that you yourself and everything that you think, say or do is somehow more important than other people.

[–]semiomnipotent0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

One difference is that the root of narcissism, from the science of psychology'a definition, is insecurity. I don't believe that solipsism has roots in insecurity, it is just a natural self protective state that all men and women have to some degree.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Okay. I haven't really seen that definition of solipsism in TRP before and I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. I don't think TRP advocates fulfilling women's desires? Usually instead it's suggested that women don't actually know what they want and need a man to show them or something along those lines. Anyways, this is a definition from a top voted submission on TRP.

Well TRP does involve fulfilling "gina" tingles. :) And TRP gives instructions on how to create "gina" tingles. What it means when TRP says "women doesn't know what she wants", that means that she will sometimes tell a man things that are diametric opposed to what she truly wants. So it's up to the man to assess the situation, and do what he believes is right without fear of failure or hesitation. The most important thing is that the man has to do things because he wants to, not simply to please her.

Based on these quotes, can you see how it seems very similar to narcissism? I mean the fundamental part of narcissism is thinking that you yourself and everything that you think, say or do is somehow more important than other people.

Solipism is more about a vision in someones head. Meaning a woman will try to protect a vision in her head, sometimes at all costs. So the idea is that if the guy behaves properly, she has no choice but to fuck that guy. Because the vision in her head says so. It doesn't even matter if she cums during sex even. She's so grateful of being with an alpha that that satisfaction trumps sexual pleasure.

The point of using the concept of solipism is that if your woman is not behaving "properly" it's likely because your behavior doesn't fit in her vision. So you must either match it, lead her to a new place, or move on.

The thing is her vision in her head doesn't have to be narcissistic. In fact her vision could even an immature fantasy. An example is "a guy should buy a lady dinner on a date". That's not really narcissistic, it maybe selfish. But that's what she expects, and that's what she will protect unless she has a reason not to.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Setting aside the whole bunch of other questions your explanation raises I can't seem to find any examples in TRP of people using solipsism in this way? If you check my post I updated it with a few examples of where TRP defines "solipsism". Judging by the way it's defined and used it seems to be more focused on women being selfish and irrational. I can't seem to find one single post that suggests you should change your behavior in order to accommodate women's "solipsism" (which in your description means "a vision in their head").

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

can't seem to find one single post that suggests you should change your behavior in order to accommodate women's "solipsism" (which in your description means "a vision in their head").

TRP is partially about acting as "alpha" defined by their concept of women's & men's behavior. Based on history, movies, etc. The reason that works is because of solipsistic thinking.

It happens to be that it is selfish and irrational to protect a vision in someones head, when reality contradicts it. You could write book on just this..

Moreover, anyone could be solipsistic, but if we talk TRP we're speaking more or less specifically and/or regarding situations. The most important thing to take away from solipsism is because women are taught to feel more than men, not all do ofc, their reactions can be provocative when their vision in their mind is challenged. This can be used to a man's advantage or detriment.

A practical example of this is a woman's reaction to mistakes in relationship. Sometimes a woman can see her man as perfect, and one mistake she has an over reaction, as if nothing he's done in the past matters. Not because of that exact thing, be because her vision of that person was one way, now it's not. That hurts her emotionally, and she reacts accordingly. Had she not had solipsistic thinking she would not be so hurt.

When it comes to picking up a lady, acting in away that gives her "gina" tingles, can help you secure her pussy. When behavior based on "primal" urges, or history it is likely that's a "movie" playing in a woman's head. And she will likely not reject the man, maybe even fuck you in the bathroom, if you act properly. This is solipsistic thinking as well. It works because it's already in her head. At least, that's the idea.

The caveat is the more mature a lady becomes the more rational she also becomes. The more she realizes that what's in her head does not have to be what's in the world. Men too for that matter.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It happens to be that it is selfish and irrational to protect a vision in someones head, when reality contradicts it.

How can a woman's sexual preferences be contradicted by reality? That makes no sense at all. (You said solipsism is a womans vision for how a man should be that he must fulfill to get sex with her.)

Had she not had solipsistic thinking she would not be so hurt.

I'm sorry I'm really trying to understand what you are saying but this makes absolutely no sense to me at all. It seems obvious that a person who has no expectations on other people will never be disappointed. It also seems obvious that a person who has high expectations more often will be disappointed. But what on earth does that have to do with solipsism as defined in the quotes I have provided above?

she will likely not reject the man if you act properly. This is solipsistic thinking as well.

Uh what. Women's ability to get aroused is evidence of solipsism?

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

How can a woman's sexual preferences be contradicted by reality? That makes no sense at all. (You said solipsism is a womans vision for how a man should be that he must fulfill to get sex with her.)

You have to think of in terms time, or emotions. If a woman feels one way, it doesn't matter what the reality of the situation is. Or rather if she feels "gina" tingles she's going to have sex. That's preordained in her mind, by TRP perspective.

I'm sorry I'm really trying to understand what you are saying but this makes absolutely no sense to me at all. It seems obvious that a person who has no expectations on other people will never be disappointed. It also seems obvious that a person who has high expectations more often will be disappointed. But what on earth does that have to do with solipsism as defined in the quotes I have provided above?

It's not about high or low. It's just what she thinks or feels. When a guy's behavior doesn't fit the way she believes him to be, the woman will react emotionally. Often she can think of that as a betrayal and give her license to act in ways that destroy the relationship.

Uh what. Women's ability to get aroused is evidence of solipsism?

Arousing based on playing a role or that is likely to be in her head already is solipsism. It can be used to a guy's advantage by knowing those roles, that play in women's heads and fitting them. Because the idea is that she will protect the ideas that are in her head, sometimes even if it means hurting her self. This is a trick. The effectiveness of using this type of thinking diminishes as women mature.

[–]polyhooly1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Or rather if she feels "gina" tingles she's going to have sex. That's preordained in her mind, by TRP perspective.

So basically you believe that whenever a woman is attracted to another man, she will cheat on her significant other, no ifs, ands, or buts about it?

When a guy's behavior doesn't fit the way she believes him to be, the woman will react emotionally.

The vice versa is the exact reason why so many men are attracted to TRP: women's behavior didn't fit the way you believe them to be (pedestals, blah blah blah), and you react emotionally to being "lied to," let down, or whatever.

Arousing based on playing a role or that is likely to be in her head already is solipsism.

So a woman being aroused by a man exhibiting the traits that she is attracted to, "a role that is likely to be in her head" is solipsism? LOL, ok.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

A practical example of this is a woman's reaction to mistakes in relationship. Sometimes a woman can see her man as perfect, and one mistake she has an over reaction, as if nothing he's done in the past matters. Not because of that exact thing, be because her vision of that person was one way, now it's not. That hurts her emotionally, and she reacts accordingly. Had she not had solipsistic thinking she would not be so hurt.

What you're describing sounds like "splitting", which is a feature of narcissism.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's present in several personality disorders I think? I thought it was typical of borderline.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah its not unique to narcissism.

In any case what he's describing suggests a personality dysfunction. If a partner acts like that don't enable it by suggesting its somehow "normal" woman behaviour.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh definitely.

[–]myfriendscantknowAgent Orangered (BP Man)4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Quick interjection.

Well TRP does involve fulfilling "gina" tingles. :) And TRP gives instructions on how to create "gina" tingles.

I'd say /r/sex does a far better job of that lol, as evidenced by this amusing TBP post.

It doesn't even matter if she cums during sex even.

Lol.

(I know this is not what is meant in TRP by "gina tingles". I just find it funny that actually being a good lay is such a low priority.)

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd say /r/sex does a far better job of that lol, as evidenced by this amusing TBP post.

It does, it's more about the practice of actual sex and & complications of having it. By that point you've already got to her.

Lol. (I know this is not what is meant in TRP by "gina tingles". I just find it funny that actually being a good lay is such a low priority.)

It's funny you say that. A lot women are ok with not having great sexual partners, because they believe it's not important. They prioritize other things. Sometimes an experience of a woman is that good sexual partners are not good relationship people either. Sex/relationships are a complex subject.

Think about an LDR. People do LDRs for long periods of time, the sex can't be great. Relationships have different priorities and work differently. "Gina" tingles is a TRP position.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Not a single person on this website knows what the term solipsism actually means and its starting to bug me.

It is literally thinking that nothing exists but your mind. Have you ever smoked weed ? I have and I remember getting high and wondering if anything was real or if I thought up everything around me. When my friends said that that wasn't possible because they are real I couldn't help but think that that is what my mind wants me to think. That's all it is, thinking that the world is just your mind and nothing is real.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So according to TRP women are constantly high on weed?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Accordingly to TRP words can mean whatever you want them you to if you try hard enough.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah yeah. Reminds me of when I was 3 years old.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I do have to say I appreciate you compiling all of this into one post. It was a bit much for me to handle seeing it all in one place though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hahaha yeah I think it requires strong solipsism to be able to deal with.

[–]totes_meta_bot0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.

  • [/r/TheBluePill] This not knowing what words mean is getting out of hand guys. I can't even believe they thought it possible to form a debate on this. I'm loosing faith in this PurplePill stuff.

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[–]sh1vRed Pill Man-3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Narcissism is an emotional frame. You only care about you. Solipsism is self deception. You actually believe that everything IS about you and that you ARE always in the right, bad things ARE other people's fault. A narcissist can be perfectly aware of his jerk like behavior, and its consequences, while continuing to indulge in it, a solipsistic person can never reach that awareness.

[–]lokidemon731 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Narcissists engage in a lot of self deception as well. They have delusions of grandeur and think that everything is and should be all about them. They have a lack of understanding of other points of view. They soothe their fragile egos by making everything someone else's fault and putting others down.

Self awareness is decidedly not a characteristic of narcissism.

[–]sh1vRed Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

But self deception is the entire point of solipsism. The defining characteristic. For narcissists it's extreme egocentrism. Apples and oranges.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The entire point of narcissism is self deception. Its a defence mechanism where you self deceive about the world to avoid accessing feelings of self loathing.

[–]lokidemon731 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Delusion is a defining characteristic of narcissism. The extreme ego-centrism stems from the delusion that they are the greatest thing that ever was or will be. And extreme ego-centrism is a defining characteristic of TRP's definition of solipsism. The two(ego-centrism and self delusion) go hand in hand.

Also, you're moving the goalposts a bit here. Your original statement was that narcissists weren't delusional, now it's that delusion just isn't the core of narcissism?

[–]sh1vRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I never said narcissists weren't delusional, I said they were in a certain emotional frame (extreme love of self). That doesn't preclude self deception but it certainly isn't synonymous with it.

Thinking you are the greatest thing ever is a subjective assessment, so it can't really be delusional. Although I agree that actual full blown, clincal narcissists do deceive themselves in order to maintain their massive egos.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Narcissicism doesn't necessarily manifest as grandiosity. Someone who believed that "bad things are always other peoples fault" as you put it would be hypervigilant.

It essentially amounts to different versions of the same thing (I am amazing and always right vs everyone else is persecuting me and always wrong" )

[–]sh1vRed Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't believe those are the same thing. One has to do with superiority, the other is an aversion to inferiority, ie, blame shifting. They are similar, but not the same thing.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem is you're only looking at the expression of behaviour, not the logic behind it.

Narcissicism is an aversion to inferiority. It's not a rational subjective assent of self, it's a self perception they need to maintain even in the face of contrary evidence in order to avoid accessing shame. So you can maintain it by thinking you're awesome OR by thinking everyone else sucks. Same payoff.

Solipsism as TRP uses it is incoherent anyway. But in philosophical terms it's a skepticism of other minds, not a disregarding of them. What TRP describes would be more accurately termed egocentricism.

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