Saw a post on ask trp from /u/poochman and was going to respond to a comment /u/abdada made but thought I should make a comprehensive post addressing the rest of theredpill.

tl;dr: First date lays are excellent but not always optimal. First date lays aren't necessarily the golden standard for red pilled men and the second date lay format may be a bit better for long term retention of plates and harem building. It's also an alternative for men who don't always night game or prefer daygame cold approaching that is built around meeting women, number closing, then dating them

The first date lay. Most of us have done it. Some of us can only dream of it. Many of us design our entire system of game around it. When it works it's a great system of getting sex from women with minimal investment and maximum enjoyment. Most guys think the epitome of game is to go out at night and be able to fuck a girl you just met that night.

I argue the epitome of game is to always be in an abundance reality (not just mentality) and to always be able to get sex when you want it. Abundance mentality is imperative but there's NOTHING that can replace an abundance reality. ACTUALLY having different women you can fuck conveniently will always bring your game to a whole new level and you will carry yourself with the aura of a motherfucker that gets pussy and gets it when he wants it. It doesn't really matter how you get laid it just matters that you CAN, but let me offer a different perspective than the usual idea that you have to be able to pull girls home on the first meet up or that you have to be able to go out every Friday or Saturday night, tag em and bag em.

I've had first date lays and girls that were only booty calls. They came over, fucked me, and left immediately. We never once went out in public or did anything resembling a date. None of these women lasted long and it took me more time, energy, and emotion to go find new women than it would have if i had tempered my game in the first place.

You've gotta give these girls comfort after you bang them and you don't necessarily wanna go full alpha. You should be giving an 85% player vibe but a 15% nice guy vibe to land you squarely in the boyfriend potential category. Below I'll lay some general rules that apply to most average women. Obviously there are always outliers.

Girls will fuck players but won't see them regularly. If they do see them regularly it won't last longer than a few weeks to a month

Girls will fuck guys who are boyfriend potential and see them regularly in the hopes of getting some type of commitment.

Girls will see nice guys regularly and let them orbit, but won't fuck them.

You want to be the middle one. There's such thing as retroactive ASD/anti-slut defense and this is often triggered on one night stands and first date lays. The female hamster spins and she drops out of orbit so she doesn't face the cognitive dissonance. She's not a slut cuz she CAN'T be a slut, but only sluts fuck guys on the first date! So she stops seeing you and puts it away in the back of the fiery chasm known as the female mind. The hamster at work.

Retroactive ASD is also one of the biggest contributing factors for false rape claims. Instead of looking like a slut to her significant other/friends/social circle, a woman will actually claim she was raped instead of admitting the truth. These women in the moment will happily take it up the ass or get spitroasted at night but once rumors start flying or people start talking and reality sets in, all of a sudden that voluntary gangbang turns into a witness stand gang rape*

This is also why many girls who have had one night stands and first date lays will downplay their actual lay count. The one night stands and first date lays "don't count" cuz it's not like they were dating or seeing that person. Some of these girls don't even know the names of the guys they fucked. The female hamster is there to delude the woman into believing in her own chastity so she can effectively fool others. We see it as lying but many woman ACTUALLY BELIEVE THEIR OWN BULLSHIT.

Depending on what you want, what you're willing to do, your style of game, or what you're looking for, first date lays can be overrated. One night stands and first date lays are great for the short term, but you might be burning out your leads too quickly. I've found it extremely effective to use blackdragonblog's two date system than going for 1st date lays.

Not only does the two date system help retention, it also builds sexual tension and can be more realistic for retaining higher quality/more chaste women who absolutely will not fuck during the first date anyways. AWALT but some women are so structured and rigid in their "rules" that they will NOT put out on the first date no matter how much of a Chad Thundercock or Tyrone Irondick you are. And if she does she probably won't want to see you too much after that lest she be forced to face the cognitive dissonance that you made her a slut. And yes in her mind it is YOUR fault that she acted slutty.

Every woman is a slut for the right guy but the reality is not every man is a 6-pack, 6 foot, 6 figure stud who girls will jump into bed for. Some guys start off in the MAYBE category and have to use game to work their way into the pussy. I'm 5'7" and bald. Despite my muscles and tattoos I can't rely on my physical features to give girls tingles on sight. I have to actually have game to get with quality women which is slightly different than some of you genetically blessed men who women already want as soon as they see you, and all you have to do is not fuck up.

My friends let me give you a basic run down of the theory behind blackdragonblog's 2 date lay system and why it won't make you come off as beta. I found his blog a month ago, was intrigued by his point of view, and put it into action myself on a girl whose number I got from a nighttime cold approach. It worked like a charm on my first field test and I'm still spinning this girl as a plate right now.

The first date meet real quick for coffee/drink/snack, keep the date under or around 90 minutes, small talk, chat, touch the girl, get her going and build the energy up, then fucking leave. Do not try to kiss, do not try to escalate, do not try to fuck, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Just leave. If you act like a cool dude, look good, are funny, build some rapport, and give off a great positive vibe her hamster will do most of the work for you. If you do all of the above, she will be second guessing HERSELF more than she is second guessing you. The female hamster is powerful, use it to your advantage.

A PUA might say not kissing the girl on the first date is a form of weak game or being "beta" but if you do shit right on the first date this is not the case.

On the second date is when you have her come over. Take her to a place close to home, have some drinks or whatever, do the usual player shit and build sexual tension/flirt, then take her home and fuck. The key is this. You do not kiss the girl until you're ready to fuck her. Do not kiss her in the bar, do not kiss her in the street, do not kiss her unless sex can happen right then and there.

Kissing decreases sexual tension and you want that shit built up to the max and ready to burst. I honestly couldn't believe how smoothly that shit worked the very first time I implemented it. I'd say I spent under 4 hours with this girl between both dates until I was inside those sugar walls. Wait til you have her in the backseat of your car or optimally in your home, before you kiss her. Then just escalate to sex.

Obviously game should be calibrated when you recognize it. If you meet a girl that's clearly DTF and you know she just wants to come over for a booty call, then go ahead and do your thing. If you're running night game and the girl is ready to go that same night, go ahead and do it. If the girls a slut and/or you don't want to plate her or see her ever again, once again bang away.

But if you cold approach a girl at night and she won't hook up with you right away, or you met the girl daygaming, this system can work really well. Think of it sort of like a plate factory. Put them on the assembly line and go through the motions.

Use the tools of the redpill arsenal however you see fit. It's all a matter of personal preference and what each individual man is looking for. Just wanted to share my personal thoughts on this after actually trying it out for myself. Just another tool in the kit really.