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I rest my case.

[deleted]

August 29, 2013
47 upvotes
/r/TheRedPill
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Post Information
Title I rest my case.
Author

[deleted]
Upvotes 47
Comments 54
Date August 29, 2013 3:57 AM UTC
(12 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1lb525/i_rest_my_case/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/i-rest-my-case.233254
https://theredarchive.com/post/233254
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Comments

[–]Kronouranos 21 points22 points23 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Although not close to TRP, the people in /r/sex are a lot more realistic than r/askwo/men, and this shows.

Well, some of it. There's still a shit ton of "you're suppose to talk about it" and "not being dominate does not mean your aren't masculine" and "dominatrices are no less feminine".

Obviously, the best advice would be to have sex with 2 girls, have the control be the girl who you ask her what she wants and if you should do something, and the treatment with the second girl would be being dominate and aggressive.

See which one calls back.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points23 points 12 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

Someone posts a link to seductionscience.com. Hamster freaks out:

Can't we do better than a deeply misogynist PUA website?

I feel like there's a major tension between the sex-positive and consensual approach of r/sex and the attempts to render sex and relationships an exploitative, combative and instrumental zone on that site. The page on 'negging' is enough to make me want to kill

"I'd never fall for this PUA shit.

Wait. You didn't use any of these techniques on me, or did you?

[–]puaSenator 18 points19 points20 points 12 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

That really bothers me. Apparently if you do this stuff subconsciously, it's okay. But if you are conscious of your actions, then it's manipulative.

[–]Ormild 31 points32 points33 points 12 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

It fucking irritates me to no end when women think all men are born with the innate ability to seduce women. It's cool for women to read dating advice on magazines and get makeup tips to appear as sexy as possible to men, but as soon as a guy wants read pickup material, it's considered sad and desperate. If only they knew that the first rule of seduction is to improve your overall lifestyle, then maybe they'd understand. Nope, they just assume guys who need to learn pick up = creepy losers. Fucking logic.

"Be Nice."

"Be Yourself."

"The right girl will come along if you wait."

"Buy her flowers, she'll love those."

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

"The right girl will come along if you wait."

I hear that one constantly from females, and from beta males. I tell them, you know what happens if I dont go looking and just wait? Nothing. Men fall into the lives of women when they least expect it because men approach women. Women do not approach men often enough to actually make a difference, and when they do they are usually not interesting to the man for a multitude of reasons.

Everyone has to learn how to talk to the opposite sex, but women can be passive about it and still get laid. There is very little effort on their part unless they had to lose some weight or make up for a hair lip or something.

[–]Modredpillschool 15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If I'm not looking, and I meet a woman, I'm calling the police because she broke into my house.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That is how it works with me. I live miles from the nearest town, and almost a mile from the nearest person. If a woman finds me here, her car is broken, she is out of gas, or she is with a male who is looking at the cars in my yard.

Women do not go looking for me unless they are trying to serve me with more legal papers.

[–]Clauderoughly 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"The right girl will come along if you wait."

Disney has a lot to answer for.

[–]nSaneMadness 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I hate that everyone says that. Female Friend "You'll find someone." Me: "Only if I do the fishing." FF: "So let them come to you." Me: "Women already take that approach. Hence why men have to do the work." FF: "That's not true!" Me: "How many men have you approached?" Several moments pass... "Exactly."

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is fundamentally why women can't give dating advice to men.

For women, this is good advice. Be pretty, wait it out, and expose yourself to different people, someone will eventually go after you.

For men, not so much. Unless you have something OVERTLY attractive about you (super tall, insanely buff, perfect face, celebrity, ultra popular within group of people, etc) then you'll die before anything happens if you don't act first.

[–]Swifthand 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They get angry because men learning to seduce reduces their power.

[–]enticingasthatmaybe 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's preposterous to believe that you'll find something specific by not looking for it. Do you realize how many random things I find everyday that I'm not looking for? Thousands. Rocks, sand, traffic cones, grocery carts, birds, etc..

[–]James_Coook 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Agreed! Also the women who DO approach you will be the ugly ones. I was totally beta growing up and the only two girls that let me know of their interest were literally the two most ugly / unpopular girls in my class. I didn't even want to be seen in public with this broads let alone date them.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Not always ugly, but desperate in some way. The ones that tended to hit on me were the fat ones, and I usually ended up with the crazy ones that had such low self esteem they would fling themselves pussy first at any man who showed interest.

Yeah, I kinda went after the low hanging fruit to a certain extent, but not always.

[–]James_Coook 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah I forgot the desperate ones! Reminds of this broad I met in college in my last year there. I finally decided to man my beta ass up and do some approaching. I see this girl who looks lost in the corridors of one of my college buildings. I open her, we hit it off and I log her onto one of the computers in the computer lab. It turns into an instadate but something just seems soooooo off about her. The opening and instadate is too easy. She's asking me a LOT of questions. I take her number and walk her to the subway stop. Anyways I get her on the phone and we TALK for fucking hours! Its easy to talk to her but something seems off because she NEVER talks about herself. She just wants to talk and talk about me which is a huge red flag at least in retrospect. Anyways we finally make it on a date and it is fucking disaster! I knew right there that there would be no connection. Anyways this broad and I stop talking after that and like FOUR years later she calls me up. In the meantime, I actually got married and was actually expecting my first kid around that time. She seems surprised and we reconnect. She keeps on calling me trying to get me to hang out with her and than freaks out because I don't have the time to do so as I am too busy with work and the family. One night she breaks down and starts putting down my wifey. I finally get the full story out of this broad. It turns out she is actually older than me (by like 5 years) and never even graduated from my college. She dropped out and even admitted to me that she fucked up and that it was more effective for her to look for a beta provider at this point in her life. I tried to friendzone this woman but she is always trying to get me to do stuff for her. She actually wanted me to take a loan in my name so she could buy an apartment and move out of her parents house. Sorry for the long rant here but I was just wanted to convey that in this day and age if you as a man don't do the approaching you are going to end up with ugly, fat and / or desperate chicks who learn early on that they will be alone if they don't do the approaching. This experience is why I keep reading this subreddit so that I can education my boys and avoid this issue when they get married.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That is going to be my second ex wife in 5 years or less. She will realize she had it good with me and now all she gets are desperate losers and control freaks, or just the guys who want a warm place to jack off.

Meanwhile, my life will be getting better and moving forward without her dragging me down. Life is too short to spend it with an ugly woman who thinks she can do better than she has with you. Yes she was ugly, it was her personality and the fact that she had never even dated before because she was ugly that drew me to her. I thought she wouldnt be fucked up like most women, but hey, she was. At least she was skinny and heavy into kinky shit. I sure had fun fucking her.

[–]James_Coook 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"At least she was skinny and heavy into kinky shit. I sure had fun fucking her." Details! Give me details!

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

James Cook. I knew a guy from TN named that who was stationed with me in Germany way back in the late 80s and early 90s.

Details. She likes BDSM, a true pain slut, loves to be controlled, humiliated, forced to do whatever you want her to do, enjoys golden showers, cum on her face, and will drop to her knees and suck off any dick you tell her to suck. The kid she is with now is not kinky at all, and there is no way that omega little fuck could ever be a dom for her. She needs that, so now she is kinda fucked by her choices.

She was 105-115 when she was with me, her face is marginal to homely, has two noticeably different size tits (a bit more than a cup size) and everyone who knows her thinks she is demure and innocent. She is a slut of the highest order, and will do anything a dominant male tells her to do, even let another woman eat her out and she isnt into women in the slightest.

After all the legal shit she has put me through is over, I will post the pics I have of her. She is homely, skinny, but really fucking good in bed. Part of it is natural, part of it is what I taught her. I was her first for everything, and I mean everything. There is very little I didnt do to her, mostly pertaining to scat.

[–]puaSenator 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

It actually frustrates me beyond belief. I just had this argument with someone on Reddit. I was trying to explain how seduction and TRP have a bad wrap because many people fail to actually look into the foundations and instantly make judgement calls.

Most people immediately said the problem was that it's manipulative. People shouldn't change who they are just to get with women. I explained, seduction is about scripts, TRP is about self -- reshaping your mind to to become a better and more valuable man.

They didn't agree and went on about how it's just creepy and immoral. However, WTF is the difference when someone goes to relationship_advice and asks how to make their relationship better? They recommend more communication, not being so assertive, stop being selfish, and so on... This is exactly the same shit seduction does, they just focus on a deeper interpersonal level. However, at the end of the day it's literally the same. We are telling people what to do to be a better person and get a better outcome.

[–]Mouthpiece 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

But, negging!

It irritates me to know like that one of the most misunderstood and most abused tactics that Mystery created is the one that all the hamsters pile on to.

I think the women that have the most problem with seduction tactics are the ones were least likely to encounter them in the real world, because no one is going to try to seduce them.

[–]noblepaladin 14 points15 points16 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Funny thing is Mystery came up with the idea of negging by imitating women. He observed that women did it to men all the time and thought, what if I did it back to them? I often hear women talk about how evil negging is, and then 1 minute later they start negging people. When you call them out on it, they go into hamster overdrive to rationalize why when they do it, it is not negging.

[–]Mouthpiece 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm shocked, shocked, that there are double standards in this establishment.

[–]cptnja 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am shocked, shocked to find out there is gambling going on in this establishment.

Your winnings sir?

[–]soapjackal 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I always wondered why I hated negging. I guess that's why, the source is pure passive aggression.

[–]MysterMoron 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Most people immediately said the problem was that it's manipulative.

So giving women gifts or flowers, dating them, etc., is not manipulative? Probably not, because it benefits women.

Besides, manipulation is the standard anyway. Everyone and anyone manipulates everyone and anyone to get what they want. Conciously or not, if you want to make others get shit done for you, you'll try and make them do so.

[–]nSaneMadness 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's what I told my ex. She was all about the "anti-PUA" scene and how it's manipulative etc. Obviously she was swayed by similar methods, but anyways, I asked her how it was any different when a guy gives women gifts, affection, paying for her and buying her gifts. Hamster took over, I just laughed. Go figure she became an ex.

If love was so unconditional you would be able to propose marriage on the spot.

[–]Swifthand 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Everyone and anyone manipulates everyone and anyone to get what they want. Conciously or not, if you want to make others get shit done for you, you'll try and make them do so.

Think about the roots of the word "manipulation". I mean, it's a synonym for interaction, really.

Why does it have that negative connotation nowadays?

[–]Swifthand 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people immediately said the problem was that it's manipulative.

Painting your face to look more beautiful isn't manipulative?

[–]decltype 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"Be Nice."

"Be Yourself."

"The right girl will come along if you wait."

"Buy her flowers, she'll love those."

And thus the beta mind is prepared for when she hits the wall.

[–]Swifthand 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And thus the beta mind is prepared for when she hits the wall.

Maybe that's exactly their strategy: If he's asking for advice, he won't be alpha anyway (so they think), so just mold him into a nice wall cushion.

[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

That really bothers me. Apparently if you do this stuff subconsciously, it's okay. But if you are conscious of your actions, then it's manipulative.

Makes a lot of sense to me. Women want a truly high-status male, in the same way you probably want a real Ferrari. If I sold you a car that looked and drove exactly like a Ferrari in every way, but it turns out it wasn't a Ferrari, you'd be mad.

Of course, the real analogy is to women and makeup. You and I want a woman with healthy skin and hair, of a certain age, and exhibiting certain secondary sex characteristics like big boobs. If we find out the boobs are fake and the skin and hair was made to look healthier and younger through makeup and such - oh wait, we wouldn't be mad, because while we may want the real thing, we don't feel entitled to it.

So really, it's not that women simply want a high-status male, it's that they feel entitled to him.

Meh. My view on life is, don't bother with PUA techniques. Make yourself be actually high status. Hit the gym, dress well, get an education and excel in your career, make money, have a social life, etc.

[–]lord-denning 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes and no. There is a thing called the "higher beta" (Krauser) or the "greater beta" (CH). These are guys that have their shit together and are successful, but simply do not generate heat with women. Game is definitely a requirement.

For example. If you are trying to make some magic with a girl, it is critical that you engage the friends and indeed it is preferred to actually ignore your paramour in the beginning. I read about this, implemented it and the difference is amazing. But this makes no sense to the male mind and I never would have learned it "naturally" as women seem to demand.

[–]1Zackcid 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think so. I think that, ultimately, everything that is taught in Game about doing these high value things relate to what a true Alpha-male would do. I believe that, to Alpha males, this shit all comes naturally. Wealthy rappers get so many girls that it eventually becomes natural to ignore and not give a shit about them because they've got so many on the side.

What we're trying to do is basically fake it till we make it.

[–]puaSenator 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Again, this is exactly what I argued with some people in /r/SubredditDrama -- First I basically argued that it's no different than giving other advice, for instance: Relationship advice, career advice, and so on... They argued that it's wrong to behave a different way just to get something. But how is that different to these other things? You tell someone to behave different to get a promotion, why can't they behave different to get a girl?

Then I argued that there are two types of "PUA". The first group are complete fakers. Eventually their cover will be blown. They are social idiots and can't move beyond a script. They carry around little books that have scripts. They don't last. And these are the guys many girls associate with being "creepy". It's not natural, and is in fact creepy.

However, the other "PUA" guys eventually internalize it. It's no longer forced as they've learned to become that man, not pretend to be that man. You'd never be able to tell these guys were PUAs. They don't use "negs" in the classic sense, they don't run scripts, and they don't even consider themselves PUA.

In fact, PUA is a very low level thing. It does have value in the world, mainly for those extremely socially awkward noobs. However, no one really lasts in PUA because it's so fake. Either they lose interest because they can't figure it out, or they do figure it out and use it just to get over a hump they were going through. Most people that succeed in PUA aren't because they become great at using the scripts, but because they learn to get over a personal barrier. For some guys, it's that they were too nervous to talk to random girls after getting out of a 3 year relationship. For others it's because they were becoming needy and they didn't realize it. The PUA techniques are a good way to get a sort of getting some help to overcome this.

In the end, most people end up doing well, but on their own, not because they adopted PUA, but PUA got them out of their shell and forced them to learn to socialize and practice their social skills like any other skill.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

don't bother with PUA techniques. Make yourself be actually high status.

Exactly this. If you are high value, you don't have to learn to simulate high value. The effort you invest in studying phrasebooks and iterating every detail of the perfect approach would be much better spent on real self-improvement.

[–]Mooshaq 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For reference, this is that string of comments.

[–]Kepaso 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

But, but, i've been told....

Not asking questions like "Is this ok?" or "Do you like that" As a relatively inexperienced lover, my follow-up question is this: they say communicating is of paramount importance, and you're supposed to talk about what each other enjoys, etc. So you're saying, talk about this stuff at a totally separate, non-horny time?

[–]1thedangerboy 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Did you read the top response under that? It's a gem.

Oh I'm definitely not saying that! Communication is absolutely important, but traditionally you can gauge how much a woman likes something based on her moans and breathing patterns...Having to narrate what you want to your lover during the act can be a mood killer for me, it puts me in a different head space than where I need to be to orgasm. TL;DR: Communication is great, but when my partner is in full manbeast mode, I don't want him to ask for feedback.

"I say I want to talk about feelings except when I don't want to talk about feelings."

[–]enticingasthatmaybe 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"I say I want to talk about feelings except when I don't want to talk about feelings."

"... and I'll lose respect for you if you want to know which one I want."

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It doesnt hurt to ask her what she likes, wants, or has a fantasy about when you arent fucking her. Knowing more about what likes can open doors for you, such as threesomes, kinky shit, anal and whatever else. Most women want to feel dirty and used when they are getting fucked, why not find out what makes them feel the most like that so you can just throw it in there? Recon is a good thing.

[–]ChaoticParadox 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel that many women are incredibly agreeable and compliant when you tell them and make them do things during sex. They tend to like whatever I like a lot more when they know I'm getting off to it without asking her permission for it.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ditto, I never ask permission, although I will ask if she likes something or wants something particular before we are naked.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It was great until this comment:

http://np.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/1l9rac/what_about_a_mans_behavior_in_bed_qualifies_as/cbx7zq7[1]

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you were trying to link to this comment:

I don't like when dominant is conflated with masculine - men are masculine by definition even if subby. But mmm i do love a guy who is dominant in bed. Personally i like some rougher play, but details matter so much less than attitude. Just lead. When a guy stays in charge and in control i am able to let go in a way that feels so good. But if I were bisexual I assume I would like the same quality in a female partner.

If she wants to redefine "masculine" to mean "literally anything a man does", that's her call. The word would immediately cease to be helpful ever, but if that's the definition she wants to use, so be it.

Despite that odd definition, she goes on to explain that she loves being dominated in bed. I think she was simply trying to say – in an extremely roundabout way – that because it's technically possible for women to be dominant in bed, we shouldn't use the term "masculine" to include behavior like sexual dominance.

I disagree with that logic for the same reason I feel it's okay to describe a human's behavior as "feline" if they're meowing while walking around on all fours.

[–]Endorsed ContributorrebuildingMyself 25 points26 points27 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's just a hamster to separate anything positive from masculinity.

[–]puaSenator 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Every girl in there is saying they want an aggressive and dominant man in the sack, but they keep prefacing that it's okay to be submissive as a man. They are just trying save face for the men that are submissive and the women that have have submissive boyfriends.

They all damn well know dominate == masculine. It's typical female shit. You just need to read between the lines.

[–]Kronouranos 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Google:

Masculine: having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men, esp. strength and aggressiveness

I believe an aggressive sub is an oxymoron, but whatever. Not worth arguing with her

[–]REDDITCanSuckMyCOCK1 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If she pushes and forces you to be dominant against her so she can just lie and take it, is she not an agressive sub?

[–]MockingDead 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, aggressive sub is just a shit test. She wants you to set boundaries and is pushing them to prove they are strong.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Having been part of a BDSM group and being dominant and alpha, even the dominant women prefer me to the submissive males, and the submissive females exclusively prefer me, both to play and to fuck them.

[–]1Zackcid 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think these questions also depend on the tone that they're being asked in as well. The words "Is this ok?" or "Do you like that?" are not inherently incorrect or bad (I don't mind them), but if they're asked in an insecure, needing validation kind of way, that's when they become mood killers.

I'm willing to bet that these same girls would be so opposed to a man learning Game. And it's just so crazy sometimes how accurate Game resources can be, All it takes is an anonymous environment where the girls don't feel like they're getting judged, and that's where the truth finally comes out their mouths.

Not to mention their innate comprehension of things like a needy-tonality, which most guys have no clue is even a thing.

[–]Swifthand 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So.. uhhh (shivering voice).... is this ok?

(hump) Do you like that,(hump) bitch?(hump)

[–]1Zackcid 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. How about you be the girl next time and I'll be the guy? /s

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