"Nice guy" since becoming assertive

Mel_Gibsons_Sanity · 2015-02-15T21:06:33+00:00

I was in the same boat for years, about 30 of them. And I completely see what you are saying. But on one hand, I don't believe it's being assertive that changes people's views.

I believe it's actually creating a different bar to be measured by.

the slightest slip up would result in me being chastised, ridiculed...

I honestly think eliminating that avenue of thought for people is/was the key.

I myself am a very nice guy. Always helping, lending a hand, being polite, being very complimentary. Like you I found this sucked. If I was 5 minutes late, it was a big deal since the prior 500 times I was 5 minutes early. I noticed if I said "no" occasionally, it was a huge deal, I was an asshole and some people would even stop talking to me completely. For something as small as not giving someone a ride to pick up beer or something.

For me, everything changed when I started saying "no" more, when I joined in on poking fun at people (which I would never do before). I felt like a lesser dude, like I can help, so why am I not. Fast forward a couple of years and I am right with you. Everyone now sees that I am nice, I get more respect from others when asking me favors. People want to be around me more.

So I don't think it's being assertive (it does help, no doubt) as much as it is changing where the bar on yourself is placed for others to see.

It's much of a ying-yang concept. There is no way you can be a great guy unless others know you are capable of not being one. You have to say "no" before "yes" matters. You have to say "no" to make the "yes valuable, and making you valuable.

This is the way I look at it, for myself at least: Take being a good guy and think of a clean bed room. A kids room or whatever. Now if the kids room is ALWAYS clean, a small pile of clothes on the floor is VERY noticeable. It sticks out, it's different. Now if this child's room is always a little messy or sloppy, yet not full out a disaster zone (think a few piles of clothes, few cups laying around, piles of paper and dvd's) you don't notice the new pile of clothes that much. BUT if this child's room is always slightly messy, you will in fact notice when they clean it up.

I personally think there is a small level where we as people, and possibly more so for men when it comes to women and making friends, you need to be a little rough, dirty, wrong, rigid and so on. Because if you are not, the nice, kind and gentle things you do will not only be expected of you, but they can be taken for granted so often that they become normal. And normal is not exceptional, no matter how awesome your normal is.

Jedi5241000 · 2015-02-16T01:24:50+00:00

This is like a tl;dr version of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover

drrrrrr · 2015-02-15T22:13:12+00:00

The reason for this generally is because that when you are a "nice guy" people can tell you are putting on a mask and they assume you are after something. Think of a salesperson who's shooting the shit with his friend in his normal voice, then when you enter the store, he speaks in the salesy voice "Hi, what can I help you find today!" His "nicer" voice is clearly because he wants to get a rapport going with you, and you know that he wants that rapport going because he wants something from you, in this case money.

When you are not clear about what you want and you use niceness to try to disguise or obscure the fact that you want something, people see you as an asshole. This happens even when you are genuinely being a nice guy - aka when you don't even want anything. People know that everyone is after something, so when you come across with the "I'm just being nice because it's who I am" vibe, they just automatically shunt you into the category of guys who are being nice to get at a desired outcome. That is probably why you were thought of as an asshole when you were nice - even if you were genuinely nice, people intuited that you were wanting something from them, and using manipulations rather than directness to get it.

When you let a clear signal fly and make it known what you want, you clear up any suspicion of ulterior motives. People perceive you as upstanding because they can pin down what it is you are after and what agenda you have, which allows them to understand and empathize with your agenda, and as a result, feel a connection to you. For example when you're flirting with a hot girl and she can tell you're attracted and you are direct about it, how can she get mad? You're just like a kid in a candy shop, you see a candy you like and you instinctively try to grab it. You have no mask; you're not hiding your intentions and she knows 100% what it is you want.

Being assertive lets people see more of your goals, wishes, attitudes, and ideas. It's perceived as transparent. Power players in business and politics constantly take advantage of this - they use confident displays of "straight talk" and create fake "this is what I want"s. They get the result of being perceived as transparent and upfront about their goals, without having to actually give away what it is they truly want. For your typical joe, however, just being assertive and direct in a relatively honest fashion is enough to gain a lot of respect and attraction.

da-way · 2015-02-15T22:49:34+00:00

Your behavior now communicates that you are a winner, whereas it used to communicate that you were a loser.

People love winners and despise losers.

It's as if, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we demand

So true, the question held in your mind 24/7 should be "who is gonna stop me?" instead of (like most of us were taught) "who is gonna let me?".

The real takeaway here is that in a very real way you have direct control over how others see you.

fatpernis · 2015-02-16T00:20:48+00:00

Yeah I can relate. Like you, I used to be a nice guy until I changed my ways. Now it feels like an insult whenever someone calls me nice.

MrHoman · 2015-02-15T21:33:15+00:00

There's a funny phenomenon, but often individuals in a society are most efficient when persuing their personal interests. People value others at their contribution to the general society, so people who act with their own happiness in mind are very valuable.

Hence, you are actively making your own happiness your main imperative. It's causing you to self improve - if you are listening to this sub at least. What happens with improvement? You become an efficient member of society since you are maximizing your skills, and people value you more highly.

You contribute, you aren't some self proclaimed 'nice guy' who treats girls right but hasn't got any talent or skill and so people look at him as a leech sucking resource from society and despise him. You are adding value to the lives of people around you by adding value to your own life.

LaconicHistrionic · 2015-02-15T20:23:36+00:00

I absolutely agree. I find that maybe to some groups of people, bluntness is a rare quality. If I am telling people when I disagree in a calm and direct way people really appreciate honesty. Especially if this person is not used to being told the truth.

I would say the groups where this way of communication has shown the most gains is with higher level people in my corporation and women. I told my boss at work that I no longer appreciated my job and would quit in a month if things did not improve. Not in a petulant way, but in the way you stated, "This is what I want. I won't settle for less. I deserve this". His reaction was strangely very warm. He was happy that I would not be immature and let my work suffer and that I brought my problem to him right away instead of being passive- aggressive.

MentORPHEUS · 2015-02-15T20:46:00+00:00

Assertiveness means communicating your own desires while respecting the values of others. It's an advanced form of communication and interaction, ahead of the opposing poles of aggressive/passive; it offers win/win outcomes instead of win/lose. The assertive person is chronically successful in his social interactions, and this shows in his demeanor even upon first approach to others.

Contrast it to the person who never asks for what they want, and are chronically unhappy from passively letting others have their way, and LOOKING unhappy too. Then they abruptly blow up and have an aggressive outburst, shaking out a gunny sack of pent-up social losses and having a moment of "I win/everyone around me loses", before settling back to "I lose, everyone else wins."

Assertiveness training is one of the best things a "nice guy/unfortunate doormat" type can do as an early step away from this beta pattern. It's something that one needs to both study the theory, and actively PRACTICE, to make good progress toward.

There are lots of good books and online resources. Especially for business game, joining a group like Toastmasters will help launch you ahead. Learning assertiveness is how you get what you want without being "that asshole," fear of which keeps many people in their passive pattern for too long.

monzzter221 · 2015-02-16T01:54:55+00:00

Yes. Its for a couple reasons.

First, when you are easy to take advantage of, people want to keep you that way.so they keep you from realizing how vital you are to them.

Now that you know you are vital, you have bargaining power, and they want to build up your ego so that you continue to do nice things.

Second, there's a rule somewhere i read, I don't think it was 48 laws, but it goes like this.

You want someone to like you, get them to do you favors. Do not do them favors for this purpose. It does not work.

This is because when someone does you favors, they feel invested in their relationship with you, so they must upkeep you so that they don't lose the time and effort they put into you.

Lakae · 2015-02-15T23:40:40+00:00

It's because now, you're genuine. People know that when you say something, you mean it. Which includes compliments, even (especially) if they are rare.

People don't remember what you say and do, they remember how you made them feel. Don't discard the idea that you've made people feel unwelcome in the past, no matter how much you stuck your neck out.

seattleron · 2015-02-16T19:21:52+00:00

They now respect you. When someone you respect does something nice for you, you appreciate the hell out of it. When some schlub does it, you barely notice.

anihilistlol · 2015-02-18T23:48:14+00:00

In cognitive psychology and behavioral economics, losses are much worse than gains. When people expect you to do something and you don't, this is a loss to them. This is worse than if they didn't expect anything from you. They had no expectations, so there is no loss.

A common one is if someone says they'll do you a favor and they back out later, you feel more angry than if he didn't commit at all.

R4F1 · 2015-02-15T22:16:59+00:00

The problem with people is, if you let them step over you then they will step over you. They can take your nice guy tendencies and make you look like the douche too, just because you let them.

Baylien2 · 2015-02-15T22:25:19+00:00

If people feel that they can treat you however they want to without consequence then they will.

Modern__Day__Pricus · 2015-02-15T22:27:13+00:00

I was like this as well.

I was always trying to please others and make them feel good despite my own self being placed on the back burner. I thought when it came to women that this would be the trick to help me get a girlfriend that would fall head over hills for me.

I even remember this one time in middle school around V-day that I had purchased 3 roses and some candies for these three girls (All seen me as the funny guy in class. I confused it for them liking me) I remember I gave one of them a rose and, her reaction was one I was not seeking. Meaning, even though I had no Red Pill knowledge back then, I knew deep down I had been rejected and took for granted even though that was not her true intention. She said "Awww" in a kind of funny way as if it was a inside joke I was trying to pull. That is the problem with being the funny guy back then. You are never taken serious.

http://associationofchronos.com/2014/06/11/i-am/

I didn't give the other roses out and felt a bit bad for a bit. That would be the narrative through out my life for awhile until I started to hang with my older cousin, found out about philosophy, questioned "If he is GOD the, who gave him power. and of course found "TRP". Fast forward some more, and I am a lot more aware and assertive than I have ever been.

I landed a position at work becoming the Floor Supervisor and was placed in a authoritative position. I never let it get to my head as most would do. I just worked even harder and gain a much larger backbone than I ever had before when younger. My voice became louder, I started to gain some respect, looked at different from family, etc.

Point is, never let negative actions of others bring you down. Negative people I believe are a underrated hurdle that is never really given the proper attention it deserves. They are the real dream killers and should be given no time if they are not on the same path as you. Let those crabs die out and be miserable by themselves. I could of went down a wrong path and continued to be meek and never try to be better if I would of let actions and words from women, people, and even family bring me down. Dead that.

Most people are not even going to remembered on this planet as if they were never here. I'm trying everyday to change that and be better.

http://associationofchronos.com/2015/02/15/who-are-you/

Good post

nut777 · 2015-02-16T06:45:09+00:00

That is because treating people honestly is actually the nice thing to do.

therellikofthenight · 2015-02-16T07:16:36+00:00

You should always look out for #1. Some people will respect it because they know the struggle. Some will think it's rude because they see you in a certain way but you shouldn't let trash hold you back. Learn to recognize WHO is criticizing you when they are. Many of these people are weak. They wilt under real pressure.

FerrusMan · 2015-02-16T13:03:20+00:00

It's as if, we don't get what we deserve, we get what we demand<

Yeah that's pretty much it. One of the red pill truths that I've learned is that we are a lot closer to animals than all of us would like to think. Animals do not respect other nice animals or value them, and they especially do not want to mate with them, do they?

TekkomanKingz · 2015-02-16T13:46:55+00:00

This is pretty hard to pull off. One other guy at my work tries to appear assertive or proactive but just comes off as annoying. If you have genuine, straightforward intentions and goals then people see that and will want to help. But if you seem like you are just trying to cover your ass and not fix anything people will hate you and not want to help.

MattyAnon · 2015-02-16T13:57:05+00:00

Yes, noticed the same thing.

Simple explanation: you're seen as higher value, so what you do is seen as higher value. Massive bias towards people of high SMV. Halo effect.

Unfair? Unjust? Sure, but also not relevant.

If you want to do something for someone and you want them to notice you and be grateful, just be a little bit difficult about it and watch their appreciation soar when you help. (You value your time - so they do too)

meowingtonphd · 2015-02-16T13:53:14+00:00

Man I was gonna make a new post but same boat, these days I've been feeling very confident and battling my personal issues and just focusing on making ME happy, as a result I've never been smiling or laughing more in my life, but people have a genuine interest in me, they find me fun and exciting (have been told this straigt up), I've gotten some numbers but taking it at my own pace making sure I keep TRP principles and focus on myself, I am not letting external forces take away this new found happiness for anything! At first I thought I was going to look like the stereotypical nice guy but fortunately unlike you I've always been more of a dick / ass than perceived as nice, 100% selfish tbh, so I've always found it harder to help others because of my fear of looking weak or because I may get used, but I realized it was just my own inability to realize the difference. Just this past weekend I didn't have my mood broken, kept my smile and charm up and looked a chick straight in the eye as I told her I wasn't driving her unless she paid up gas $$ like the rest of the group was, I would have normally been worried thinking people would see me as lame or being petty since it's only 5$ a person but if 5/6 people are paying this gas money as a favor, she should be no exception. I've been realizing that intention was a huge part of my issue. In a natural way I was able to shift the tone from her defensiveness "Wtf I'm not trying to be cheap y are u calling me out?" - her, and simply stated my position (While having the same good time vibe I've been seeking to keep in my life) because I wasn't trying to make any type of scene, I just want what is fair for the rest of the crew, which got her girlfriends and my guy friends on my side if they weren't already in a flash. Easy, effective, got my gas money, we all had a good time and no joke she did show more direct interest towards me after that but I just focused on having a good time because that has been my main goal for a few weeks now. I went into this with legit no intention to improve my SMV, I thought it would suffer if anything... these external results have been boosting my own mission towards bettering my mental state tons though.

tl;dr - I've been realizing I can be a happy shit eating 'having a blast with life' guy and not look like a beta bitch. You don't have to be a stone cold psycho for people to think you're cool / interesting.

Title	"Nice guy" since becoming assertive
Author	RedRisingHood
Upvotes	135
Comments	39
Date	February 15, 2015 7:49 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2vzyd6/nice_guy_since_becoming_assertive/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/nice-guy-since-becoming-assertive.29176 https://theredarchive.com/post/29176

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