~ archived since 2018 ~

Been here for a while? Reading every article? Still not getting results? Here is what you need to do.

ti83nightedition · 2012-07-28T11:00:03+00:00

Stop reading. Start doing. That is all the advice I have to give. Nothing more....

ti83nightedition

July 28, 2012

45 upvotes

/r/seduction

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Support the archive

Everything here was supposed to disappear. Banned subreddits, deleted communities, cancelled blogs — much of what is archived here survives nowhere else.

It stays free — no paywall, no account — for the next man who comes looking, the way it was free for you.

I pay for the servers, the storage and the bandwidth myself. If you want this record still standing in ten years, become one of the people who keeps it online.

Support the archive

Post Information

Title	Been here for a while? Reading every article? Still not getting results? Here is what you need to do.
Author	ti83nightedition
Upvotes	45
Comments	36
Date	July 28, 2012 11:00 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/xam4q/been_here_for_a_while_reading_every_article_still/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/been-here-for-a-while-reading-every-article-still.1336362 https://theredarchive.com/post/1336362

Comments

[–]kheper 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]n0c0ntr0l 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]MgenGlder 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]MgenGlder 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Fallacy argument. Talking to women does not make you more attractive to women. Learning how to be attractive to women makes you more attractive to women. Learning how to be attractive to women is not gained from talking to women or else this community would not exist.

believe it or not, do look outside of plain looks when they look for mates.

Though I agree on the evolutionary biology behind this, modern culture teaches women to be the same as men, in that, your physical appearance is all that matters. Of course there are exceptions, but large and part, if you're going for the type of women most men would consider sexy, you cannot have an undesirable appearance, or looks that would be on a league below the woman you're trying to attract. And you can trust me on that. I have a friend that lost 100+ lbs and is now what most women would consider "cute/attractive". His game would make those in this subreddit shoot themselves. The stuff he does makes me want to facepalm through a table. Even my natural friend think's he's laughably awful. I am pretty bad at this stuff myself, but for an average guy, being in the community quite a while I would still put my game a league above his, and he now gets more ass a month then I have my entire life.

That doesn't mean the communities teachings are useless, but there is still a glass ceiling of "leagues" in reality. Look at any decent PUA or coach and they are all very attractive men. Even the ones sighted for being unattractive (like Tyler Durden, who I've had the privilege of meeting), are still fairly attractive, which I think is the more ironic realization...

[–]MgenGlder 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

I never said talking to women would automatically make you attractive. I said it would make you better at handling them and more accustomed to their presence. (Which many people seeking help need to work on.)

Being confident will get you chicks. This has worked time and time again for me and I'm no Tyler Durden by a long shot. I think it's appropriate to say being confident makes you attractive in comparison to the guy who's twiddling his thumbs and looking down, wondering why this chick is even talking to him. And you can trust me on that. I recently dated a chick that you might consider way out of my "league" just because I had the courage to ask the big question.

I hate that term "league" used in that sense because it's such bull. There are no leagues. It's not baseball. You can go for whoever you want. Its ridiculous mindsets like that that ultimately limit your own potential. It's like you give up before you even try. Often times what someone has in looks they make up for by lack of depth, and vis versa (though thats not always the case). But I guess if you're judging the value of women strictly on their looks you're already at a disadvantage.

Of course having good looks sets you ahead, I never denied that. But it's not the end-all-be-all. Not ever. The only difference is the handsome man will have an easier time landing a chick than the not-so-handsome guy. Not that it's impossible.

That's why I say you'd be surprised. But if you want to believe the hot guy always gets the hot chick go for it. I wonder how much luck that mindset will get you though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I hate that term "league" used in that sense because it's such bull. There are no leagues. It's not baseball. You can go for whoever you want. Its ridiculous mindsets like that that ultimately limit your own potential. It's like you give up before you even try. Often times what someone has in looks they make up for by lack of depth, and vis versa (though thats not always the case). But I guess if you're judging the value of women strictly on their looks you're already at a disadvantage.

The idea of value is just a more elegant way of saying "people have leagues". It's all the same thing. I'm sure you would not disagree that people do not date far from their own social value, and that most of the things that guys come to the community for are for these value multipliers (learning how to talk to lots of women, learning how to be the life of the party, learning how to have men look up to you or want to be around you. Learning how to Not give a fuck). Again, just fancy way of saying "league". That's why people come here...because they are low social value and want to be high social value...or they are high social value, and want to be higher.

That's why I say you'd be surprised. But if you want to believe the hot guy always gets the hot chick go for it. I wonder how much luck that mindset will get you though.

It's not about wanting to believe anything. It's reality, demonstrated to me every time I leave my house. Positive beliefs are great, but not synonymous with truth.

[–]MgenGlder 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

That's really untrue. You're adopting a very pessimistic mindset that you perceive as realism, but really isn't. The world isn't that dark. People date out of their "social values", whatever that is. I've dated out of my "social value". It happens all the time, I see it happen all the time.

The people coming here want to learn how to get chicks. Not because they're "low social value", but because they don't know the techniques. You dont need any of that shit to land a girl, all you really need is to know how to present yourself and how to seal the deal.

You can be an asshole and land a hot chick, you can look like your face just got ran over by a semi and still land a good looking gal.

One of the most important steps to becoming socially free is actually learning how to not give a fuck (although I hate how overly sensationalized the term is). Disregard everyone's false perception of "leagues" and "social values". People with low esteem and pessimistic attitudes will always have difficult times getting what they want, not just with women. I mean, you can't honestly expect them to come to you. At one point you just have to say "Fuck it, I'm gonna try it." because you quite literally have nothing to lose asking a girl out. Its not like you have a limited amount of attempts, or a health bar you have to conserve.

If a girl that you would consider "not that hot" had the balls to ask your sexy ass out, would you turn her away?

It's similar the other way around.

The reason you might see the more desirable chicks go for the naturally hot guys is because the other guys think exactly like you. They wont even try. They refuse to try. They give up before trying. They think "She's out of my league, therefore trying is an exorcise of futility" which is completely untrue. So the big, buff, Tyler Durden looking guys get free reign over all those girls you fantasize about in your room because you didn't have the balls to even dip your big toe in the water.

Fuck that.

There are 2 kinds of men in the mating scene. Those that make their limitations, and those that break them.

This is reality.

Which one are you?

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MgenGlder1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Low blow. The ol' "I've looked through your comment history" ad hominem dodge. Classic reddit.

Well I've made mm point

You haven't made any point...you've stated your personal philosophy and told me (and anyone listening) to trust that it's true without any anecdotal or imperial evidence to demonstrate why you believe this is the case, and used my comment history to dodge the question when I put your feet to the fire. So do not tell me it's because of my comment history when I've been perfectly civil this conversation...

I just hope you don't misguide more people.

Hence my point. If anything, you've done more to demonstrate that you're the one misguiding people with fantastical belief structures that when contradicted in reality, will probably end up damaging more people further then you're helping. The only time believing the things you've outlined works is if the person already believes it deep down some place and simply needs validation. PickUp Podcast with AJ and Jordan Ep. 168/169 with Dr.Doyle: "You cannot simply replace a negative belief with a positive one".

If you are not the shit and not up to other peoples standards, and you walk around thinking you are, and it does not matter, you will do nothing but enforce that you are not the shit. It doesn't matter how much game you have, no one is fucking you if you're 300 pounds with no job.

[–]MgenGlder1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. I'm trying to understand how someone can hold and validate a belief structure that to me is diametrically opposed to reality through debate and discussion. For you to tell me that you're not going to explain yourself because I'm too negative to understand anyway is pretty low, and makes no sense anyway because if you're going to tell someone they are negative, that should be more reason to explain to them why their thinking is flawed or needs examining. But that's just my take. If you'd like to explain the logic behind your statements/opinions, I'm more then willing to listen, but otherwise, especially in seddit where people's frames are going to clash, you can't act like you didn't just tell someone the sky is purple and not expect them to contrast you...

If your telling me a jobless 300 lb has never got laid before then I'm sure this argument is over because you are definitely mistaken.

Sure, a 300lb jobless dude can get laid...with other 300lb jobless people. Hell, there is even a reality show running right now with a 300lb dude getting it on with a playboy bunny. That's great for him, but I don't consider this a result of his game. I consider it an extreme coincidence that he happened to meet someone who was able/willing to look past a high degree of flaws.

[–]MgenGlder1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok, now you're just being silly. I've spent the past 3 long winded comments explaining my point in great detail and now you're saying I refuse to explain? Not to mention the fact that my last one was met with "that sounds semantical", the weakest argument Ive heard in a long time. I really didnt want to continue if that was the best you had.

And I guess that means you take back what you said about 300lb jobless men not being able to get laid, right? If you dont consider a 300 pound jobless man getting it on with a playboy bunny to have any game, you really don't know the meaning of the term. And if you think the only women a 300lb man can get with are other 300lb jobless women you're still sadly mistaken... but you can go on beleiving whatever you like.

I mean, just look at Heidi and Seal.. the man's face literally looks like he's taken 1 too many bullets to the face. While heidi is a beautiful model, yet it still works out. Why? Because, and I know this is difficult for you to grasp, love transcends physical looks. Seal can sing beautifully and has an awesome personality, he's no looker nor is he the biggest ladies man but he's genuine and confident. and thats all you need.

Hell, Tina Fey and her husband. Super short and a wierd looking face. She is even richer than him. You gonna tell me that's all luck? Well, you can enjoy you're luck. I'll continue to use confidence.

Also, on an unrelated note, being overweight isnt a "flaw", it's a life decision. It can be based on genetics and a multitude of other reasons. Just like being jobless. The context is much more important than the subject, in the situation as is in most so you can get off of your high horse there as well. A person overweight and struggling to overcome it is much more desireable than an overweight person who rests easy with it. And they are not one and the same.

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ok, now you're just being silly. I've spent the past 3 long winded comments explaining my point in great detail and now you're saying I refuse to explain? Not to mention the fact that my last one was met with "that sounds semantical", the weakest argument Ive heard in a long time. I really didnt want to continue if that was the best you had.

The original point made was that going out, approaching women makes you good with women. My counter point was that talking to women does not make you attractive to women or this community wouldn't exist. Therefore, this community exists because there is a glass ceiling, which you need to break through to become attractive, because women (and men) only associate with their equal. A woman who is of high sexual desirability is not going to get with a man who is not, and a man with many attractive, sexual options is not going to go out with a woman who is unattractive. This is simple darwinism. Therefore the man has to hone himself and make himself attractive so he may match or surpass her, and that's why guys come here; because they either don't attract attractive women, don't attract enough women, or don't attract women at all.

Whether you agree or not, my point is a logically flowing rationale as to why I believe the original argument (that approaching women and gaining confidence makes you attractive, and that attracting women is easy) is false. You have countered my points with your own anecdotes, but you have not provided a rational argument of your own as to why my logic is flawed; You have simply said your own is superior.

I mean, just look at Heidi and Seal..

Seal may not be Heidi's physical equal, but he's talented (musician) and also a rich celebrity. That more than makes up for his appearance and in that sense, you are comparing an apple to a slightly bruised apple. Not an orange.

And I guess that means you take back what you said about 300lb jobless men not being able to get laid, right? If you dont consider a 300 pound jobless man getting it on with a playboy bunny to have any game

No. It's a dude who happens to be large, who happened to be on a game show with an extremely attractive woman who happens to really like him regardless of his appearance. It's a huge causal chain similar to many of life's events. It would be game if he actively made it happen because he understands how women and attraction works. Winning the lottery doesn't mean I'm good at making money.

I said your point was semantical. I will have to take this back as I've used the wrong wording, but I do still disagree with your point. I was replying to your point that average or below average looking men simply don't get the type of women they are after because they don't bother trying. But, I think even if they tried, the life they've lead from believing (by virtue of your own argument, not mine) that they are "low value" will have the very predictable result of them having poor or uncalibrated social skills to the extent that they would not be able to attract these women. They would never pass the shit tests. They would never be able to deal with the LMR, or protective friends. Hence, this community and hence the extraordinary amount of work you have to do to get good at this. So in that sense, I think your logic defeats itself and validates my point, that people have value (leagues) You say you are a living example of the opposite. I don't know your life story, but I would think, from the way you speak (and some of the comments you've made after re-reading this debate), that you've never really had serious issues with confidence, social skills etc. and in that sense, I can understand why you would disagree with this....but if I'm wrong feel free...

[–]MgenGlder1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The original point made was that going out, approaching women makes you good with women. My counter point was that talking to women does not make you attractive to women or this community wouldn't exist. Therefore, this community exists because there is a glass ceiling, which you need to break through to become attractive, because women (and men) only associate with their equal. A woman who is of high sexual desirability is not going to get with a man who is not, and a man with many attractive, sexual options is not going to go out with a woman who is unattractive. This is simple darwinism. Therefore the man has to hone himself and make himself attractive so he may match or surpass her, and that's why guys come here; because they either don't attract attractive women, don't attract enough women, or don't attract women at all.

But this is where you are completely wrong. This isn't a scientific matter that is up for debate, it's something that when you truely understand it, you win at it. Thats why most/if not all successful pua's all give the same advice. I just don't understand how someone who has had success with women can honestly believe this, unless you haven't. You're limiting yourself by thinking like this and I'm trying to help you. You don't need to change yourself for any woman. The reason people keep suggesting you work out, get hobbies, and clean up is so you can build confidence and be presentable.

People come here for advice on talking to women and getting laid. Not because they're not attractive to women (hell, many newbies think they're not attractive to women when they are). They need to know how to talk to them, and the majority of the advice given is to man up, talk to her, and be yourself. Not "wear this" or "do your hair like this" or anything like that.

Also, I'm not arguing whether or not you logic is flawed. You're argument is just plain incorrect. What you say makes sense in theory, but in the real world it just doesn't apply. People aren't the same as animals. Looks are not everything except to the extremely superficial, and even then there is more to it that that. The only proof I can provide are celebrity examples, and there are tons. As for heidi and Seal, dont even give me that money stuff because being a supermodel gives you more than enough money you could really need. Why would she choose seal when, as a supermodel, you have the luxury of choosing from the other hottest, richest men in hollywood? Christina hendricks and her hubby are just the same. Hell, even Olivia Wilde and hers and met in high school. Need I list more? And celebs are no different from normal people. Celebs have to compete with other celebs for their women too, I would even say its more difficult.

And dude, dont even give my that random chance bull either. There is no "happened" or "chance". There's a dude who saw a chick he wanted. He didnt "happen" to go talk to her. He didn't just "happen" to woo her. He took the risk, he grabbed his balls and gave it a shot even though the odds were against him, and that is what it's all about.

If you're not a hot ruggedly handsome man girls aren't just gonna come to you and spread their legs, you have to go to them. There's no "random" chance about it, it's simply common sense.

And also, I didnt want to have to bring this up, but I've had serious social issues since I was a kid. I was so painfully shy that it hurt, I couldn't even look at girls straight. I wasn't handsome, I wasn't cool. So I didn't even try it, which is my biggest regret. I didnt outgrow it until college where I met some of the coolest people. They forced me to talk to chicks, they showed me how simple it was, how ridiculous all my fears were. We even played a game where we would go to a party and I would give my friends all the cash in my pocket. They wouldn't give it back until I talked to the hottest chick at the party. Like anything else, it became easy with just alittle practice. I realized "Wow, this chick is actually talking to me. She doesnt care what I look like, its just like talking to one of my bros."

Sincee then I've never changed myself for a girl, I've only improved on my confidence, became a more outgoing person. So I know you're thinking all too well, I went through that logic process for the longest fucking time and that memory of being the guy who never got chicks is etched into my brain. It's irritating that someone would want to think like this, when I know for fact that it doesn't get you want you want. It was only when I decided to juts give it a try that I achieved success. And I guess that's why I'm so ardent about this argument.

From your last argument and the assumptions your making, I'm going to assume you haven't even tried talking to chicks you would consider "out of your league" so I can understand why you might think this way. Try hitting on a chick like that and see what happens. Use a cheesy pick-up line, she'll laugh. 9/10 they do. Tell her she looks nice. She did her hair well. Smile, laugh, relax. "We should do something later". Bam.

The men who have what it takes to walk up to a girl and do this, are the men who get all the girls. I can guarantee you that.

If you can talk to a girl with confidence and suaveness it won't matter how you look. Of course you should look presentable, as in most situations but your natural beauty doesn't really decide whether you get the girl. She'll feel comfortable, she'll feel appreciated. She'll feel good.

Hell, I know if a girl did that to me I'd be incline to slap a ring on her.

And even if you don't get laid right away, you made someones day just alittle better and you might leave with a new friend.

Are you starting to understand? It's because you can improve your approach and your mannerisms that this subreddit can exist. If your natural beauty decided who you got, there would be no point in trying. No matter how hard you try, if you weren't born as ruggedly handsome as Brad Pitt, no matter of clothing or makeup is going to make you as such. Because game is an aspect in pick-up, everyone has a shot. And thats why you see the most socially awkward, and challenged people in this subreddit.

Please, for your own good. Listen to this guy. They do pick up videos for a living and they know what they're talking about.

Explanation of pickups of hot women.

Pickups using the worst, cheesiest lines, yet it still works.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MgenGlder1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lingual_panda 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Oblech 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]rmbarnes 21 points22 points23 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebuildingMyself 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]clips_phrases 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]naadin 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebuildingMyself 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]atomicmouse -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]toughluck1 -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]toughluck1 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link