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Emotional intelligence and red-flagging.

RobbieGarrett

May 27, 2018

26 upvotes

/r/seduction

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Title	Emotional intelligence and red-flagging.
Author	RobbieGarrett
Upvotes	26
Comments	69
Date	May 27, 2018 12:16 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/8mhdyv/emotional_intelligence_and_redflagging/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/emotional-intelligence-and-red-flagging.1447317 https://theredarchive.com/post/1447317

Comments

[–]WIA20XX 27 points28 points29 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I know you're asking about texting, like 70% of the posts here, but I think you, and the rest of the digital crew needs to stop playing the game on hard mode.

Getting a number means you got a bit of a spark, so your job is not to kill the flame, but feed it until you get a roaring fire.

You gotta blow on it, give it more wood, but not so much fuel to smother it, and not in a way to burn yourself.

Think about this.

There are some guys that can't even get a number. So if you can get a number, you're doing something decent. There is a spark.

But the mistake here is then switching to a far less effective medium, text. Especially for a newbie.

Texting well means you can write well. You can evoke emotion in short messages and then create enough momentum to get the girl back out with you.

But

A lot of these chicks barely remember who you are, much less how good you made them feel in person. And now you're just one of many notifications. You're competing for her attention with Instagram and Candy Crush.

This is buying the game, and then immediately playing hard mode.

Why am I getting frustrated?

You should stop going for numbers altogether.

If she can give you a number after a five minute chat, spend five minutes more. Ten minutes. Fifteen minutes, 30!

"You used to play piano, lemme see your hands.... You should try basketball instead LeBron."

"Hey there is this great coffee shop/bar nearby. You've got to try their specialty. Omg, you're totally a whisky girl, I knew it! Bartendress, get this woman your finest rail whisky!"

"Omg, are you hungry?, I know this chill cafe. If you steal my fries.... Okay whisky girl, lemme ask you a deep question. Oh snap, my dog just texted me. He's real chill. Are you a dog person? Big dog or small dog? Big dog, this will never work out, you know what they say about girls and big dogs."

Usually I don't do this, but Hey, do you want to meet my puppy, see my stamp collection, watch that thing I was talking about? My place is close by, but you can't stay long.

Day or night, start doing more, and getting more investment from the girl by having an instadate. And then moving her from place to place.

You will have to change where and how you approach, but most of all you need to change your mindset.

You're ultimately trying to seduce her. That means get her and all of her friends into bed, not group chat.

Becoming a text expert is hard as hell when you're new and over value every number you get, and pacing the floor, agonizing over every word and pic.

Focus on what's important

[–]RobbieGarrett 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Was reading what you are saying and what everyone was saying. I see your trade and that makes sense. I've kept a memory, if it serves me right of the emotional intelligence of never initiating contact to a girl ever again if she shit tests me or stops replying.

Current girl (That I would settle with) - she stopped replying to me over a misunderstanding (See previous post about kids/marriage), she contacted me again 2 days later wanting to see me again. That's** a 100% success rate of emotional intelligence. I then responded to her shit tests by reducing my texts back to 1-2 times per days vs 4-6 times per day. Her texts increased in size and then by day 3 of this action she started sending messages after the first message had not been read. I'll give myself a 50\% success rate for that. Now she sent me a hugely blunt text yesterday evening after being very distant all day. I am not sending a text to her ever again, unless she initiates. So 24 hours later, nothing from her. That's so far a 0% success rate. So If I add that up it's a 50% success rate.****************
Casual Date - keeps bugging me and wanting to see me all the time, but she's just got too many red flags and I am not interested. She's messaged me 3 times to meet up since our first date. 2 since our second date. 100\% success rate?
Girl 3 - I slept with her whilst away, she was texting me a lot then started to short-reply me. I've text her 'zero' times in 3 months. She's liked an Instagram picture, so that's a 1\% success rate?
Girl 4 - I slept with her on a day off, she was texting me a lot also and wanted to meet up a lot. I stopped texting her - she got back in contact. 100\% success rate. She texts me again to meet up, we do and then red flags and I stop texting her. She sends 4-5 messages after. 100\% rate?
Girl 5 - American college girl who seemed obsessed with me was playing very hard to get. She's contacted me 4-5 times after zero contact/initiation from me. So that's a 100\% rate again.

What I am trying to say, is that's like a 70\% chance it will work vs a 30\% chance it won't work. In meteorology they use 30% and 40% chances of having a chance of verification. Unless they know for sure, they use 30% and 40% to cover there asses.

There's always probabilities that you can do everything on Reddit and it has a 30% chance of working or 70% chance of succeeding. It also has a 0% chance of working vs a 100% chance of working. I am rambling on now, but as you say. Focus on what's important!

I've NOT known this girl very long at all. She's not willing to have a proper conversation anymore, so I see it as a probability she'll contact me again vs a 100\% chance I won't contact her to initiate any conversation. I've lived by this rule for the last 2-3 years after someone taught me about it. So it's a 70% chance based on who I am, and this varies between person to person right?

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Okaloha 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]WIA20XX 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]EnvironmentalTwister 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]WIA20XX 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You get her to tell you something she wouldn't tell a stranger. Usually you have to lead with something of your own. There are at least three other options I can think of right off hand - but the key is to stop going after low probability pulls at the start.

When you get 20 real notches, that's when you can legitimately ask about how to get a girl's number in a crowded train. (Usually a low probability scenario)

That being said, if you can't get good investment, any number you get will be low probability. I'll take it, but keep my expectations low, and run the same sort of text sequence I always do. I've never not lived in a big city, so women are always in abundance.

And for you younger guys, it will make more sense to get the social media stuff, and just advertise to the chick through your account.

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alextryingforgrate 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]StalkoFalco -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Caplooey -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]WIA20XX 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I say much crazier shit. Every thing to me is an opportunity to engage someone on an emotional level.

I didn't start out this way.

A 17 year old version of myself was trying to do Metroid speed runs and wondering if I had a million dollars could I date Myra Monkhouse from Family Matters.

I had to learn.

I had to try new shit, look stupid, fall flat on my face, lose girls, etc.

Now, I see pickup, life really, as one silly little game. (Now if I could just figure out the money thing....)

All a girl needs to do is slide her panties to the side. All you need to do is give her the situation where that is easy for her and enjoyable.

Most guys try to "nice" their way into the pussy, shit that has been failing them since grade school.

They don't ever seem to connect the dots, this befriend the closest skirt around is not working.

That opening a conversation with "Hello my name is Vijay" turns people off.

They then brag or humble brag about themselves and bore the chick.

Or they try to be good listeners, or some other dumb shit their Mommy told them.

Very smart guys, that so analysis for a living, well versed in the scientific method - can't get enough distance from themselves, their mindsets, expectations, and behavior to fix what they could actually fix.

Lemme switch gears.

When you make an active effort to engage strangers in a good chat, then steer the chat to things you want to hear about - you will learn and remember things from others.

From those data points, memories, patterns will emerge. You will either consciously or unconsciously start to see and use those patterns of conversation. Deeper than that you will see the hidden layer, the sub communications.

If a girl asks me for a light, she's not just asking for a light. I had to talk to lots of people to start seeing the bigger picture, and failing.

Now that doesn't happen to me. Now my problem is that I know how a relationship with hot chicks play out. The thing that sustains a relationship for me is not in her bra or in a diploma. So finding someone is much more difficult.

[–]Caplooey 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]WIA20XX 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (49 children) | Copy Link

When all your receiving is red flags from a girl and can't see the green light at the end of the tunnel, you pause - take a moment to reflect then walk away?

Lot of metaphorical language here. But if you're saying you are getting a lot of red flags and not much of anything good, then of course you walk.

In the case of a guy (me) putting in lots of effort and the girl (her) putting in minimal efforts to protect her heart

If it's always imbalanced as far as who puts effort into the interaction, then yes, that's a red flag, regardless of whatever "excuse" they have.

That said, it does matter in what context you're talking about all this "effort."

Example - my normal texts but her response is minimal and about 40% of the effort of mine. I've decided it doesn't warrant a reply, in fact it doesn't warrant an initial effort from me.

If this whole post is about texting, then all your concerns about the "effort," are probably out of line.

Texting, especially in the beginning, is better spent on setting up a meet where the real interaction can occur. People have lives they're living right in front of them, and trying to start up some sort of pen pal interaction with someone you're not close with, is a waste of time. It can easily come off as if you're not prioritizing your own life very well. It can also come off as desperate.

All of which can lead to less effort on the girl's part.

The ironic thing is, if she's interested, she's probably wanting you to suggest some sort of meet and if all you're doing is chit-chatting, that's not going to inspire a lot of enthusiasm from her.

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link

Lot of metaphorical language here. But if you're saying you are getting a lot of red flags and not much of anything good, then of course you walk.

Thanks for the response. In terms of red-flags and why I've decided on the no contact rule. I've known the current girl 5 weeks. Week 1-3 was Dates 1-3. No problem with any of them at all and she would send me huge paragraph messages which would get a similar response in between each date before and after. ** Was this my mistake? Be honest**!

The only real red flag at this point was that she won't commit to a relationship or exclusiveness for a very long time. We are talking months - half a year.

About 2 weeks ago red-flags started appearing.

She text me post-date 3 that we wouldn't work long term.
She text saying that she wants kids & marriage soon.
She doesn't trust what I say (Generalising against guys)
People only tell her what she wants to hear
It hasn't worked out with previous guys because they don't want to commit to her, so she ends it.

I then decided that she's wrong about me. I am not in the same category as those guys and I want something meaningful. Does she believe it? It takes her two days to respond, but I initiated the no contact rule until she re-initiated.

If it's always imbalanced as far as who puts effort into the interaction, then yes, that's a red flag, regardless of whatever "excuse" they have.

That said, it does matter in what context you're talking about all this "effort."

She's very apprehensive but wants to meet on date 4. She's very closed and cold on the date - but still hugs/kisses me. Her guard is up. She wants date 5.

More red flags after our date 4

She's persistently online at OkCupid. At this point I should be a good choice not an option.
Her replies go from normal to half-assed responses overnight.
She stops asking me questions about my day and how I am
She ignores my checks that her wellbeing is fine
She continues to give me small replies

By day 2 I've hugely backed off and her messages increase in size again. The evening before the date, her messages are back to normal and on one occasion where I didn't send her a text in 6 hours despite being online she sent another.

Date 5. - https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/8maskc/instead_of_second_guessing_i_told_her_how_i_felt/

If this whole post is about texting, then all your concerns about the "effort," are probably out of line.

Post Date 5 -

She sends me a nice text hoping my day goes well. I text her a decent message back, it gets a cold/blunt response that doesn't warrant a reply. This whole scenario has dented my self-esteem and I think I needed a little bit of distance from the situation. At least then I can understand where it all went wrong, and I'll learn that things simply can't be fixed; people can't be fixed.

I made her priority - see my other post on the dating section. I feel like something is amiss here and so in this scenario I am right to go to the no contact rule?

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (47 children) | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

....the current girl 5 weeks. Week 1-3 was Dates 1-3. No problem with any of them at all and she would send me huge paragraph messages which would get a similar response in between each date before and after.

It is unrealistic to expect such long paragraph messages all the time, and expecting them can lead to letdown that makes one needy or off balance for no reason.

The only real red flag at this point was that she won't commit to a relationship or exclusiveness for a very long time. We are talking months - half a year.

This is an odd rule for her to have. Indicates baggage, though I couldn't say what. But this sort of thing is often a response to getting burned hard. Nothing you can change about it, though. It's really her thing to deal with.

About 2 weeks ago red-flags started appearing.

She text me post-date 3 that we wouldn't work long term.She text saying that she wants kids & marriage soon.She doesn't trust what I say....People only tell her what she wants to hear....It hasn't worked out with previous guys because they don't want to commit to her, so she ends it.

Wow. Okay. Yeah, she did get burned hard and she basically told you exactly how.

And she's in a position where she's fucking herself over; she wants kids and marriage soon but imposes odd restrictions for how a relationship can start and grow. She's choking it out with mistrust.

She is having issues opening up, which makes her seem like someone who can't be trusted, which is ironic because she's doing it to avoid this sort of thing from the one's she's dating, but all it has probably done is make trustworthy guys want to bail, leaving the ones who will ironically be the guys who'll fuck her over.

I then decided that she's wrong about me.

Doesn't matter what you decide.

~~The whole issue with her is mistrust from her own baggage. This is not something you can solve for her. She has to fix that. You can't do it for her.~~

It takes her two days to respond, but I initiated the no contact rule until she re-initiated.

Your No Contact Rule won't help. This is basically you trying to manipulate her into interacting. This won't lead to good things.

~~She's already twisted out of shape emotionally. What you're trying to do is twist her further out of shape to get her to do what you want.~~

~~At best, you'll manipulate her into communicating more, but it won't make her distrust go away.~~ ~~Even if you "win," you're winning more time in a mess of a situation.~~

She's persistently online at OkCupid.... At this point I should be a good choice not an option.....Her replies go from normal to half-assed responses overnight....She stops asking me questions about my day and how I am.....She ignores my checks that her well-being is fine....She continues to give me small replies

~~Looks like a person shifting into fear.~~

~~Date 5.~~

~~I got off the bus with her and told her that I wanted to be with her long term and that I'm sticking around. I wanted to know where her heads at because I can't keep second guessing.~~

~~I think this is really the only thing you can do: reach out earnestly and if she's going to shake off her fear, she will.~~

~~The thing to look out for, is if she keeps basically prepared to leave; checking OkCupid, looking for things wrong with your relationship, etc.~~

~~Post Date 5 -~~

She sends me a nice text hoping my day goes well. I text her a decent message back, it gets a cold/blunt response that doesn't warrant a reply. This whole scenario has dented my self-esteem and I think I needed a little bit of distance from the situation.

~~I'll learn that things simply can't be fixed; people can't be fixed.~~

~~People can't be fixed. Pretty much.~~

~~If, by no contact rule, you mean that a girl like this ought to be cut off, then I think you're right. There's little to be gained here for you if she keeps turning on you.~~

~~Relationships are marked by two people being willing to face problems together, not one constantly turning on the other one and creating fires that the other one puts out by themselves.~~

~~I'd say to just wish her well with her life and move on. Hope she finds what she's looking for, etc.~~

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

It is unrealistic to expect such long paragraph messages all the time, and expecting them can lead to letdown that makes one needy or off balance for no reason.

That's partly my problem. I've spoken to her the last two days as I decided I've probably over-analysed this a bit to much. In fact it's probably best I just let it be and take what she says at face value as it makes some literal sense. From our conversation - she seems to have realised that her persistent shit testing half ass'd texts are not welcome.

She made this clear on date one, that she takes a long-time to officially agree to that sort of thing. But she doesn't date multiple guys or sleep around. I am not sure if she's dating anyone else, but then I have a guilt-free pass to date other girls?

Wow. Okay. Yeah, she did get burned hard and she basically told you exactly how.

I still think she did this not because she had reasonable doubt, but more so she wanted to lay her cards down on the table early on (First proper shit-test?) and I didn't run away. It's a very strange way of doing things, but as you say she got burned hard and she told me exactly how she doesn't want it again?

She said she's apprehensive about dating me because of my career and some comments I made about having kids later on. Although it's not a firm decision on when I'd like them - it's pretty heavy conversation early on for me.

Trustworthy guys want to bail, leaving the ones who will ironically be the guys who'll fuck her over.

Because they are the ones who know how. It's her decision ultimately how this progresses. I have no control over it, other than stay in the moment?

Looks like a person shifting into fear.

You've hit the nail on the head, she's opened up that she doesn't want to go through the whole process again only for her dreams to become delayed again. I say dreams, because it seems that's what she wants.

Your No Contact Rule won't help. This is basically you trying to manipulate her into interacting. This won't lead to good things. + I think this is really the only thing you can do: reach out earnestly and if she's going to shake off her fear, she will.

I've realised that, and I decided to reach out to her because I made her feel awkward and then confused as I walked away, despite saying I'd be there for her. So yes I fully agreed with what you said and explained why I was giving her space. It's not what she wanted though, and I explained the way she texts me makes me overthink the situation - but she reached out about that and said that she wants me to take things slowly and at her pace rather than what felt like pushing? That's only fair right?

The thing to look out for, is if she keeps basically prepared to leave; checking OkCupid, looking for things wrong with your relationship, etc.

I'll let her use it and for her to keep dating other guys so to speak, it's a guarantee that the smart one will be the one who will ironically be the guy who'll fuck her over. It won't be me, as I've made it clear my feelings towards her and my long-term intentions.

People can't be fixed. Pretty much.

If, by no contact rule, you mean that a girl like this ought to be cut off, then I think you're right. There's little to be gained here for you if she keeps turning on you.

Relationships are marked by two people being willing to face problems together, not one constantly turning on the other one and creating fires that the other one puts out by themselves.

I'd say to just wish her well with her life and move on. Hope she finds what she's looking for, etc.

Well I went with what you said, reached out to her and explained my feelings towards the situation. Apologised that I gave her silence despite her wanting me to be there for her. Should I have apologised? I don't really know. I decided that it was probably for the best on what she said in response to me giving her the silent treatment.

This morning she asked me if I wanted to go for dinner Friday. Which is a stark difference to how she felt Friday on our last date. But rest assured I know my worth and if things aren't comforting I will walk away with my head held high.

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (45 children) | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

~~I still think she did this not because she had reasonable doubt....~~

~~No, man. Let's rewind to what she did.~~

~~She text me post-date 3 that we wouldn't work long term.~~

~~So if she were on the level, this should have been the end of it. She wants long-term and she~~ ~~just~~ ~~said you guys wouldn't work long-term.~~

~~Which means that:~~

~~She either said something she didn't believe was true (which is lying and being manipulative),~~
~~Or her emotions are so unpredictably all over the place that she changes her mind all the time and she's not stable enough to handle a relationship.~~

~~She text saying that she wants kids & marriage soon.~~

~~She basically just told you she wants to break up. And now she's talking about wanting kids and marriage.~~

~~This is unstable.~~

~~She doesn't trust what I say....People only tell her what she wants to hear....~~

~~So she has such a low opinion of herself that she'll date people she thinks are lying to her.~~

~~And more importantly, the way she's acting will have the side effect of attracting the very types of people she doesn't want.~~

~~It hasn't worked out with previous guys because they don't want to commit to her, so she ends it.~~

This is just batshit. She opens by telling guys that she won't commit and that long term won't work. For most guys that means, "Hey, this is casual." Then she gets bent when they are casual and sleep with others. She's fucking herself.

Her declarations that you wouldn't work out long term, were a reaction to you coming on to her too strong in the early going.

~~She said she's apprehensive about dating me because of my career and some comments I made about having kids later on.~~

~~No. She's apprehensive because right now she's consumed by fear. You can't take the blame for that just because she's pushing the blame onto you.~~

And she shouldn't expect to be having the kids talk so damn early. Like before you've even established stability and attraction for a serious relationships, she's trying to hash out having kids with you? It's like she's trying to freak a guy out and hopes one will be that great white knight from the movies who ~~saw~~ ~~the real her and stuck around.~~

~~It's Hollywood bullshit.~~

~~Apologised that I gave her silence despite her wanting me to be there for her. Should I have apologised? I don't really know.~~

~~She's gaslighting you, man. You didn't need to apologize. You were silent because you needed a breather after all the fear-driven shit she's been doing to herself and to you.~~

It doesn't matter that she wanted you to be there for her, despite her shit. What matters is that she has a thing SHE should be dealing with or at least helping with. Instead, she's making it the responsibility of whoever she's with, to fix something she needs to fix.

~~And you're apologizing for being overwhelmed by that. You shouldn't be.~~

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

1) She said we wouldn't work out long-term because of the misunderstanding that I didn't want kids till I was 35. Previous guy was career focused, and I mentioned my intentions with my future. But I am sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

Her exact words: She took it at face value, she should have asked, but from experience people just tell her what she wants to hear rather than whatever the truth is. So she pays attention to peoples views when mentioned in passing.

I think she's been burned quite heavily, but it must be her fault? I'll see you've hinted at this coming up and it makes perfect sense. Emotions wise - she doesn't want to go through the same process with someone again only for them not to want the same things as her.

2) Previous guy was from online dating. Relationship lasted about 1.5 years (If memory serves correct). She said on date one that she won't commit for at least 6 months, as in her mind she doesn't agree to those things. She agrees it's weird but that's just her. So the guys she's attracting are the ones she thinks will be taken for a ride, in fact they take her for a ride and then some.

Couldn't imagine how the guy felt after 6 months of casual, then she wanted kids and marriage not long after that? It explains why he kept delaying things? Or was this just something he thought would go away and he'll still get what he wants so to speak?

He didn't exactly fight for her when she dumped him.

3) It's so obvious from her texting and behaviour when we are on a date, that what you say is true - I just didn't see it. Things were actually fine for the first 3 dates. The 3 date rule and she comes out with this? I am an option and I constantly feel like I put in ALL the effort. I just hope I am not the only she hangs out with just because she has no other choice or I am plan B when Plan A doesn't work. Plan A being the guys that suit her, those ones that fuck her over.

I did freak a little bit, but I have a high tolerance in this low tolerance world.

4) It unequivocally explains why her relationships don't end well, because she tries to hard to find the right person for her. That right person never exists. I get what she wants, I want kids/marriage one day. But I need to know how sane she is.

She accepts my flaws and we get on really well in person. Right from the start she was good fun to be with and she is very kind in everything we do. It's just the things she does via text (That she can't do face to face)

Did you read what happened on our last date? I was questioning her loyalty basically and she looked at it as forcing/pressuring her to do something she didn't want too. I didn't ask her into a relationship - I clearly took the advice on here and of my friends to make sure that I don't pursue this any longer than I should. I wanted clarification on where I stand and she felt super awkward about it. I am guessing you'll say I found her out?

I can't fix her and I am not going to fix her, as nobody can. She needs to do this for herself.

She asked me on a date actually, but cancelled this morning - only to re-arrange for the night after. So not a bad thing, but first time she's ever made plans then changed them. Odd.

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (43 children) | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

She said we wouldn't work out long-term because of the misunderstanding that I didn't want kids till I was 35. Previous guy was career focused, and I mentioned my intentions with my future. But I am sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

~~Translation: she was looking for things to freak out about, and she found some.~~

~~It's not as if these things she's worried about couldn't be negotiated or anything. A lot of people have certain priorities that get shuffled around when they get into a serious relationship.~~

But she just decides to forecast the future in her own head and waste everyone's time imagining things that may or may not happen. And in her case, things that WON'T happen because she's so busy scaring everyone away.

I think she's been burned quite heavily, but it must be her fault? I'll see you've hinted at this coming up and it makes perfect sense. Emotions wise - she doesn't want to go through the same process with someone again only for them not to want the same things as her.

Yeah, she wants to avoid things preemptively, but it doesn't work that way. Guys do shit like this also, when they try to learn game. Like "how do I avoid flakes?" Or, "how do I avoid this or that other relationship issue?" To some degree, you can learn to avoid red flags, but with many things, you really have to just find out by giving people chances and seeing if they let you down.

~~She's trying to imagine both sides of these interactions in her head, which is, again, a waste of time.~~

Previous guy was from online dating. Relationship lasted about 1.5 years (If memory serves correct). She said on date one that she won't commit for at least 6 months, as in her mind she doesn't agree to those things. She agrees it's weird but that's just her.

~~It's weird but "that's just her," is a cop-out. A poor excuse.~~

When she says that she won't commit for a contrived reason, when she comes out and says things like, this wouldn't work long-term, but she sticks around, she is telling guys she is there for casual sex.

~~Guys will choose to see it that way, anyway.~~

~~So the guys she's attracting are the ones she thinks will be taken for a ride, in fact they take her for a ride and then some.~~

~~Pretty much. Because she thinks she can ease into a serious relationship, by paying her way in with sex. Obviously it doesn't work that way.~~

Worse, she's pretty much auctioning off her self-respect in the process by agreeing to an interaction she clearly doesn't want, as a desperate attempt to get the thing she really wants, which she should just be going for from the start.

~~He didn't exactly fight for her when she dumped him.~~

~~Yeah, it was probably a relief, honestly.~~

~~I am an option and I constantly feel like I put in ALL the effort.~~

~~I think you misunderstand her. Her focus seems to be mostly or all on you. The appearance she gives of being unattainable is bait to get you to invest.~~

And in the event that she is dating others and just using all of you as leverage against each other, that's all the more reason to peace the fuck out; anyone who does shit like that in the beginning, is at risk of pulling that shit on their significant other inside of a relationship when things go sour.

~~It unequivocally explains why her relationships don't end well, because she tries to hard to find the right person for her.~~

~~No. It's because she hasn't been dating ANY of you. She isn't dating you now.~~

She's dating a figment of her imagination, that she is currently projecting onto you. That's why you do the things you do and she's freaking out. She imagines you as someone you're not, so she doesn't see ~~you.~~

~~And there's no way to call her out on this and somehow shock her into seeing you for real.~~

~~She accepts my flaws and we get on really well in person.~~

~~Again, based on what you've said, she seems incapable of actually seeing~~ ~~you~~ ~~fully. Not really.~~

.....she looked at it as forcing/pressuring her to do something she didn't want too. I didn't ask her into a relationship.....I wanted clarification on where I stand and she felt super awkward about it.

~~I already commented on that confrontation. But if she saw it as you trying to force her into a relationship, then that's your answer.~~

~~Sounds like another red flag.~~

~~She asked me on a date actually, but cancelled this morning - only to re-arrange for the night after~~

~~What was the rationale?~~

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

1. I proper questioned her on this, because if you aren't sure on what someones saying you have to question them in person? She didn't think of it at that moment. She only thought of it overnight she says, does that sound too familiar? I accused her of a cop-out and she got very defensive and told me her story. It then took her about 2 days to work out in fact, she wants to continue dating me and that she's actually an idiot for just assuming. The proof in the pudding was when I said - I haven't exactly told you directly I do not want kids till I am 35 - she agreed on this but still went on saying this how she perceived it - based on what I said.

I am wondering how many dates or people she's seen around me, like I can count 6-7 times she's been out but hasn't really been clear on what she's doing and who with. Just some girls she says. I mean she could be honest about this, but what am I to know.

2. But in her mind that's not ultimately what she wants? What she wants is something casual and hopes that that will make the guy stick around with her and hopefully with 0-60 comes 0-100 quickly after (60 being a relationship and 100 being kids?) then 120 being marriage.

I didn't think about this in a logical sense, because in her mind she said she really likes me and was really upset to end things. But she's just opening herself up for shit in the long run, and then expects a guy to stick around wanting the same things as her? This is not how love works. I am most certainly not in love with this girl and my feelings aren't as strong as they once were initially.

I get your reasoning, but how comes she hasn't come to mine yet? She has hinted a few times, although I don't know if these were hints. It seemed like she was down but then I can't be too sure.

I don't know if she's talking to other guys, but what I do know is she's occasionally active or very active on the website. I hardly go on it, but I do check out of curiosity and because I am bored.

3. This whole thing is a distraction for me because of how shit works been, so I would have ran just on or after date 3 but then I am quite emotionally intelligent and I've managed to on-off date a girl that I am not attracted too casually and 99.9% of the time end up sleeping with. So I am pretty happy that I can do that. How? I don't know.

My friend told me that I attract the weirdos. I really and honestly do attract some proper weirdos. Is she freaking out, because I found her out? Like her shit-testing with the texts has stopped now. I wonder why? Like was there any frigging point in being such an obnoxious ass-hole just for the sake of it. Anyway my patience has worn thin and I am just using this as a distraction now rather than emotionally investing - safe to say she fucked any good reason for me to invest in her long-term or short-term.

It explains why she pretty much asked me to stick around and be there for her, because she's just using me for whatever reason she feels necessary. Guessing she's thinking I am whipped?

4. This is the strange thing - she couldn't handle any part of that conversation. How on earth did she then tell the previous guy that she wants to settle, have kids and get married. I just cannot imagine that right now. I am banging my head as to how this all ended so fashionably. I am wonder if this wasn't the first either?

5. Originally she was working the Friday, then got that off. Overnight she stopped texting (Although apparently she was at work but she's been up all day - so I am very suspicious) by this as one would expect her to be sleeping at 9am-12pm.

So she then informed me that she can now meet up, this transpired that she's now working this Friday due to short staffing instead of the Friday. Funny she says that as she's not on that list and never does. But she quickly suggested Saturday, although I should expect her to be completed tired.

[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (41 children) | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

The proof in the pudding was when I said - I haven't exactly told you directly I do not want kids till I am 35 - she agreed on this but still went on saying this how she perceived it - based on what I said.

~~Like I said, she's running on fear. And she's not actually dating~~ ~~you~~~~. She's projecting a figment of her imagination on top of you and can't really see who you are.~~

I am wondering how many dates or people she's seen around me, like I can count 6-7 times she's been out but hasn't really been clear on what she's doing and who with. Just some girls she says. I mean she could be honest about this, but what am I to know.

Listen to yourself. You ought to have some introspective thought about this whole line of thought.

Are you having trust issues yourself? Because assuming that "going out," = "being out with other dudes," is a leap you're making here.
The question is, are you making that leap because she's saying or doing things that prove she's dating around with others?
Or are you just cooking it all up in your own mind?
EDIT: And hounding her about where she is, when she's not with you, is not a good thing to add to you apparently coming on too strong to her in person.

Either way, this is not healthy at all.

What she wants is something casual and hopes that that will make the guy stick around with her and hopefully with 0-60 comes 0-100 quickly after (60 being a relationship and 100 being kids?) then 120 being marriage.

~~This isn't how people work.~~

~~If she wants marriage and kids, she wants that now.~~ ~~Anyone who wants those things, is not happy with casual.~~

~~When people want a serious relationship and they settle for something casual, in hopes of bargaining for the rest later, that's desperation and lack of self-respect.~~

~~I didn't think about this in a logical sense, because in her mind she said she really likes me and was really upset to end things.....I get your reasoning, but how comes she hasn't come to mine yet?~~

~~Why would she come to your way of thinking? She has her own baggage and you telling her something doesn't change that.~~

~~And as I mentioned,~~ ~~she doesn't even really see you for who you are anyway, so you could be doing everything right and she wouldn't see it.~~

~~And there's literally nothing you can do about this. You can't call her out on something she's apparently not aware of yet.~~

~~....what I do know is she's occasionally active or very active on the website. I hardly go on it, but I do check out of curiosity and because I am bored.~~

~~Come on now. You're showing signs of distrust. Your mind is wandering into thoughts of whether she is with other guys already.~~

You may tell yourself it's boredom or curiosity, but you wouldn't be curious if you trusted her and you would find something else to do with your time than check a boring ass dating app when you're bored.

~~This dating exchange is not terribly healthy for you.~~

~~This whole thing is a distraction for me because of how shit works been...~~

~~Isn't this an excuse? How is dating an emotionally unstable person any sort of relaxation or release after work?~~

~~I guess you're getting validation from her, so that's something. But the price you're paying for it is getting kind of high.~~

.... then I am quite emotionally intelligent and I've managed to on-off date a girl that I am not attracted too casually and 99.9\% of the time end up sleeping with. So I am pretty happy that I can do that. How? I don't know.

~~Whatever emotional intelligence & instincts you have (which I don't doubt), you're actually overriding, in continuing to date this girl.~~

~~She's continuing to date you casually because she undervalues herself and doesn't believe herself worthy of asking for/getting what she wants: a relationship.~~

~~The ironic thing is, you're kind of offering that to her, but she refuses to see it because she's too busy projecting her fears onto you that she doesn't see you.~~

~~It explains why she pretty much asked me to stick around and be there for her, because she's just using me for whatever reason she feels necessary. Guessing she's thinking I am whipped?~~

~~You're definitely making this more complicated than it is, with your own fears.~~

~~She's been absolutely transparent: she wants a relationship but is standing in her own way.~~

~~If anything, she seems afraid that she's whipped. You both seem to have things backwards.~~

This is the strange thing - she couldn't handle any part of that conversation.

~~It's not strange at all. People don't like talking about anything connected to their baggage.~~

EDIT: It comes off more and more now as if the reason she was pulling back and not wanting to discuss some of these things, is because you were coming on too strongly and assuming entirely too much emotional investment on your part and hers.

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

1. I didn't think about it like this at all, and I've pretty much gave you all the information and you've sussed out what is a reasonable and conclusive explanation to her behaviour. So there's no way of getting her out of this imagination? It's probably UN-fixable.

2. It's not healthy, but I've sat back and let life take it's course. Obviously I take ownership and control of my fate, and it's not like this is written in the stars and it's all hunky dory. I know my self worth and when to end things. I don't mean I'll let this take it's course because I have had a lot of control over the situation. By saying how I feel and what she believes I feel are incorrect - the next step was sussing her out and realising what was going on here. Why do you think I've turned to the GPU? People outside of situations give you a hindsight view and that means I am not looking through things through rose-tinted glasses which is never healthy.

3. She's very desperate for kids and wanting all those things. Her sister is ahead of her slightly in that she's settled with marriage and a kid. This must be torture for her. In fact whilst it was seen as pressure from me. I was in fact telling her that I was willing to settle down now and make things work - she felt on the spot and awkward which I think we've gone through already. But "She doesn't even really see me for who I am anyway, so I could be doing everything right and she STILL wouldn't see it."

Is she so focused on the future, that she's missing the early and most enjoyable parts? It was the whole point I focused my energy on telling her how I felt and what I wanted going forward.

4. I know she's seeing other guys! Right - when I am with her she doesn't' once go on her phone.

She sent me a few texts whilst I was out drinking yesterday at 7pm. I sent her a text back and it's not been opened at all. I sent a further text at 2am as I just got home, nothing. She told me she'd be awake all night as she's back on a night shift tonight.

You would have at least thought, she'd text me whilst she's awake all night and not doing much? It's perplexing but very much what I did to her on the weekend - silent treatment. * I am sure she thinks it's a game now, and she'll cancel tomorrow. If she does I'll be** walking very quickly away***.

5. It's not distrust as such. But I know my luck when it comes to these things, so I am always telling myself things won't work out as I hoped it would be. That's now also why I just don't care how this ends, because it won't really adversely affect me. There's more bigger shit hitting the fan right now than someone who probably doesn't actually care about me.

I am getting validation, but it's in small doses and in a way that leaves doubt. That's not healthy at all is it?

6. I think I need to use them better, as as you say I am overriding any correct thought process with whatever stupidity that is coming my way through this. I mean it's probably going to fall apart now, as she's playing the game of giving me silent treatment. So I won't be texting back in an hurry at all.

I've offered a lot to her but she's still not seeing it. She's going on dating apps to find this and the reality is in her mind, that I am an option and she's using me till a better option comes along?

7. I fully agree with you - but you know my options and they aren't exactly limited, and there isn't exactly a way to call her out on this and help her? I guess I'd be dragging my heels to cutting off the nose to spite the face?

8. I think logically about this, but then my reality is that things could work out - but then that's stupid? Your advice is clear though. Walk/Run and never look back?

[–]recyclablebanthas2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

~~.....you've sussed out what is a reasonable and conclusive explanation to her behaviour.~~

~~I've had some mileage; After enough social interactions, directly and observing those of people around you, a lot of patterns just keep repeating.~~

~~Hers is one of the all too common ones, honestly. So many people out there are dating without really seeing each other because of fear.~~

Anytime someone is like, "I don't even know you anymore!" they hadn't been dating the person in question and are only just then coming face to face with some reality of who the person really is, and often, it's someone they wouldn't have dated unless they had been projecting their own fantasies onto the person.

~~So there's no way of getting her out of this imagination? It's probably UN-fixable.~~

~~She has to do it. You have no control over whether she solves it or not.~~

Why do you think I've turned to the GPU?

GPU means graphics processing unit to me.... what are you meaning by this?

~~She's very desperate for kids and wanting all those things.....In fact whilst it was seen as pressure from me.~~

~~I was in fact telling her that I was willing to settle down now and make things work - she felt on the spot and awkward....~~

~~In addition to her other baggage,~~ ~~a factor why she'd feel "pressure" when someone is offering her what she "wants" is that she isn't wanting that from you~~ ~~on some level and isn't fully self-aware of this fact about herself.~~

~~Is she so focused on the future, that she's missing the early and most enjoyable parts?~~

~~Nope. One of two things is happening:~~

~~She's just not feeling you and subconsciously looking for flaws and reasons for it to not carry forward.~~
She's too afraid to see you for who you are, and is replaying old affairs she's had, thinking that every guy is like one guy who burned her in the past. Even to the point where she does things to make sure any guy she dates, does things that makes them look like they belong in that category.

~~It was the whole point I focused my energy on telling her how I felt and what I wanted going forward.~~

~~Like I keep saying, this would only matter if she was self-aware.~~

~~She lacks that, by all appearances.~~

I know she's seeing other guys! Right - when I am with her she doesn't' once go on her phone.

She sent me a few texts whilst I was out drinking yesterday at 7pm. I sent her a text back and it's not been opened at all.

While this is savvy, it's still something you should be careful that you're not being paranoid about with future girls you date. It's really easy to allow girls to make you distrustful because some actually are dishonest.

EDIT: And in retrospect, this comes off like she's just being respectful. A lot of people don't get on their phone much while out with others. And this business of you assuming stuff because she didn't open a message, is TOO MUCH.

~~It's perplexing but very much what I did to her on the weekend -~~ ~~silent treatment.~~ * I am sure she thinks it's a game now....

~~If she's doing little vengeful things like that, it's even more cause to cut things off. Someone who sees conflict resolution as revenge, is not someone you want to date.~~

~~For that matter, beware you own tendency to do this.~~

It's not distrust as such. But I know my luck when it comes to these things, so I am always telling myself things won't work out as I hoped it would be. That's now also why I just don't care how this ends

~~It's a fine line between being "realistic," and being "distrustful."~~

Extreme example: I have seen dudes who thought they were being realistic, but were actually assuming things like "oh yeah, any girl is going to fuck a dude if she has the opportunity," when of course, not every girl would.

....she's using me till a better option comes along?

This is why I keep saying you need to beware of over-abundance of distrust.

She shows a lot of signs of being afraid that you're going to betray her. But aside from that, she was giving every indication that she was invested in you. Just afraid of being hurt. And currently turning the screws on you with this cold treatment after you said you were invested.

But you seemed to be ready to decide she's banging other dudes.

....there isn't exactly a way to call her out on this and help her?

EDIT: That little Hail Mary move you pulled of telling her where you stood, was honestly probably more awkward than anything else. She had already been pushing back because you were pushing too hard.

~~Calling her out is generally going to be a big fail.~~

~~Help? If she asked, then that would work. Otherwise, you're not going to be doing anything to "help" her see anything she isn't ready to see already.~~

~~I think logically about this, but then my reality is that things could work out - but then that's stupid?~~

~~Unless she changes and makes some progress on her baggage, there is nothing about the current situation that looks like it's going to work out.~~

~~Unless there's a lot you've left out.~~

~~It's not stupid that you want it to work. You've invested in it and it's natural for you to want it to work.~~

~~Just question whether you have really been "logical" about this. It would be pretty difficult to remain logical about this girl.~~

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1. One of my colleagues said she only continues to see her boyfriend, despite him being a cunt because she's afraid that she'll not find someone else. I guess that's exactly what your talking about? I mean I wouldn't date someone simply because I felt that my job or career would prevent me seeing or finding another person in life. Especially when the relationship isn't what you hoped for.

Is she dating me simply because she hasn't quite yet found that person, but then she knows she can project that 'image' on me that you talk about? Funny enough - if 6 months down the line, and everything is perfectly fine. I would commit to kids and marriage. But right now, it's too heavy to think about what with my own life facing a disaster that's outside of my hands.

I always say things become clearer with time. They really do.

2. GPU = General Public. Sorry!

She has to do it. You have no control over whether she solves it or not.

I guess a guarded girl will always try to hide who she really is and how she's really feeling. It's like when I look in her eyes, I don't know what I see. She's deeply attractive, even though she has no confidence in that.

I am very clever in that I know when someones thinking. I've worked with all different kinds of women, and every single one will give off this vibe that they are thinking. But they'll never ever tell you what it is?

4. I get the vibe she's just not feeling me, but THEN she said she likes me otherwise she wouldn't be here, she wouldn't kiss me and she definitely wouldn't hold my hand everywhere in public. I mean we've hugged and kissed in view of her front door? That' can't be all that bad especially as she's a daddies girl.

She says she doesn't date multiple guys at once but how many is a multiple and how many is not a multiple for her. Multiple's in maths is; a number that may be divided by another a certain number of times without a remainder. So that's worrying.

5. I do look at things subjectively. I even told her that I know my core values and how I am feeling right now. It's so strange that what seems like her pushing me away is actually her wanting me to dig deeper as she's holding back on her true inner-most feelings?

She wants me to know that I want her even if she’s being hard to love because she doesn’t want to waste her love on another person who will not reciprocate it. She made this very clear in her text post-date 3.

She wants someone who's ready for what she wants. But we've both agreed she takes an extremely long time to agree to that. But how many girls would agree on post-date 5 that they'll be my girlfriend? I am sure in today's low-tolerance world - there's not many.

6. I don't think she's sleeping with other dudes. I reckon she's dated at least one or two other guys around me, and I don't know how far in they are. In fact I reckon her behaviour mood-swings are directly in relation to how a date goes. Like last night I questioned what she was doing and as to why it took her 24 hours to reply to my text - she said she was doing stuff. It just seems very shady and not very informative. There's been occasions when she's told me what she was doing and was as detailed as a NASA space launch.

I am sceptical only because I've dated a lot of people, maybe almost 60-70. A lot of these were Tinder dates in my younger years and I wanted a casual thing. Now mid-20s I have lived a lot of my life and enjoy it, but I really want to share that with someone. Some people aren't ready, and people close to me have asked me, am I ready?

7. By the way, after I pulled that little stunt and went silent on her - she drew me closer again by asking me on a date. When I pulled that stunt she said she was busy all week and then she's on holiday for 2 weeks (That's been booked before I met her).

When I got back in contact, she quickly hinted that she wanted to see me before she goes away. In fact she's planned this one so she has zero commitments the next day. Only date one, could we have done the deed but I thought against that. So my question to you is, do I take her home tomorrow night on date 6? Or will she hint at it?

I don't even know what she's got planned for me, but what I do know is we can't go back to hers. She lives with both parents. It's probably more better off at mine anyway?

8. I was willing to help her a lot, it's why I wanted to 'exclusively' date her. But then that relinquishes her chance at dating other men. What would be progress on her baggage? Out of general curiosity. Can you provide examples. I know sleeping with her is an exclusive thing for sure, as she did say she'll only sleep with one guy. I just don't know when to do the deed. I am not afraid of doing it, just she's very hush hush on the pressure thing and I don't EVER want to be put in that position with this one.

I am very apprehensive about tomorrow, but she's organising everything and she confirmed 6pm with me this evening. Funny enough; she's working yet texting me. Last night she wasn't working but was busy packing and tidying (Yet couldn't touch her phone). You see why I feel she's not trustworthy at this moment?

P.s. Thanks for the support, appreciate it. It's very much welcomed.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]recyclablebanthas2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

~~One of my colleagues said she only continues to see her boyfriend, despite him being a cunt because she's afraid that she'll not find someone else. I guess that's exactly what your talking about?~~

~~No. You're talking about fear of inadequacy here. Fear of not being good enough, or whatever.~~

~~In her case, I'm talking about someone who is projecting their fantasies/fears onto someone else and just not being quite aware of who they are.~~

~~Is she dating me simply because she hasn't quite yet found that person, but then she knows she can project that 'image' on me that you talk about?~~

~~This assumes more self-awareness than a lot of people have.~~

~~A lot of people don't know themselves. These people often have a lack of understanding of others around themselves also.~~

~~I guess a guarded girl will always try to hide who she really is and how she's really feeling.~~

~~The mistake here is making up some category of "guarded girl" as if that's a type of girl, or something one just IS and never changes.~~

We're talking about a human reaction to being hurt. Men have these reactions also. And some of them are pretty damn similar. Men also project their fantasies onto women they date and don't realize who they are with at times.

~~As for this girl you're dating, she's literally told you the story of how she's feeling, multiple times. She's not hiding a thing, really.~~

~~She's told you she wants a serious relationship and kids and all that. And she's told you that she sabotages serious relationships.~~

~~I've worked with all different kinds of women, and every single one will give off this vibe that they are thinking. But they'll never ever tell you what it is?~~

~~But she's literally told you everything.~~

~~Not sure how this is appearing more complicated?~~

She says she doesn't date multiple guys at once but how many is a multiple and how many is not a multiple for her. ....

She's been literal every other time so there's no reason to think that "multiple" means anything different than the dictionary definition = more than one.

Seriously, check in with yourself on this one: it seems like there are some trust issues inside you.

I do look at things subjectively. I even told her that I know my core values and how I am feeling right now. It's so strange that what seems like her pushing me away is actually her wanting me to dig deeper as she's holding back on her true inner-most feelings?

~~It's not black or white.~~

~~She IS afraid. She does feel some sort of love/attachment. And again, you can't really fight that war for her. She has to decide between love or fear and she's currently going with fear.~~

~~But how many girls would agree on post-date 5 that they'll be my girlfriend? I am sure in today's low-tolerance world - there's not many.~~

~~This is an issue with your self-confidence. As if some low-confidence girl with all these issues is one of your only options?~~

~~The very idea is ridiculous.~~

Like last night I questioned what she was doing and as to why it took her 24 hours to reply to my text - she said she was doing stuff. It just seems very shady and not very informative. There's been occasions when she's told me what she was doing and was as detailed as a NASA space launch.

EDIT: This comes off more as you pushing too hard even when you're not with her. Sometimes people don't answer texts. Even for 24 hours. Considering you were coming on too strong, I could see her wanting some breathing room. So you calling attention to it and demanding to know why she took time to answer, is adding more awkwardness.

~~There could be different reasons for being secretive. I used to think it was just because people are lying about hooking up with other people, but I've come to realize there are other reasons.~~

~~Like if someone has been in terrible relationships where the other person is abusive about what the other person is doing, even if it's harmless.~~

~~What would be progress on her baggage? Out of general curiosity. Can you provide examples.~~

~~It really isn't rocket science. She'd be acting like a GF, instead of saying that it's not going to work out, or saying that she takes time to warm up or all that. She'd just BE warmed up.~~

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I feel like a lot of the time I do lack confidence, and that’s simply of how shitty women are with me especially when I am just a genuine nice guy. I still feel like am trying to find myself and with each day I feel like I am building that confidence, with each and every knock.

I guess that’s why I and this girl have worked out so well, because we both lack that confidence that everyone else has. I don’t know? It’s very hard this day and age to find someone and yeah maybe I’ve put my eggs in one basket.

I feel like I lack some understanding of her, and how she really does feel. I know you say she has told me everything but date 6 really did tell me a lot more than we know. This girl is far more hurt than you can honestly imagine.

I am always there for her and I show her a lot of affection. We hit this off on date 1 and it's been there ever since we've dated. In person that's never ever waned. I share myself and how I feel and what's currently going on in my life. She’s always showing some sort of interest in that, except via text this has completely and utterly died off. Not completely but near enough she shows little interested and enthusiasm via text, but I suspect this is normal as time goes on and she doesn’t have to declare some sort of interest via the text medium.

Like let’s look at it this way. After my little speech to her, she didn’t want to see me for at least a few weeks. So there was no guarantee of another date. She somehow managed to get a day off and wanted to spend that time with me. That must say a lot – however way you look at it. I even said to her it was much appreciated.

I then shot myself in the foot again and apologised about not talking to her for a few days. She told me she would never have got back in contact as it was as if I’ve made my mind up and decided I didn’t want to talk to her. So she assumed that I would never talk with her so she wouldn’t have messaged me. So that whole idea of no contact was a very bad idea indeed.

I made things awkward, but I think eventually things were fine. She literally wouldn’t tell me what she likes about me most. She wouldn’t even tell me anything. I even suggested if at any point she wants to chat and consol in me – she can. She literally got very defensive and said that’s not her, she doesn’t open up outside of her very close circle of friends for a very long time. Like she didn’t even with a guy she dated for 5 months. That’s just her.

She’s had two real relationships. One of 2 years and then one of 5 years, which presumably both ended on the fact that a guy didn’t want to commit with her. I am guessing the guys that she dated gave up? She literally was so emotional telling me this. So I reached out to her and gave her a very long hug and for the first time ever she rubbed me gently.

I just feel like all this stuff she came out with after date 3 has put a heap of pressure on me to do well and do her right. Like it’s a huge thing and I can assure you it’s not easy knowing that’s what she wants and what I’ve got to open myself up to.

I need to decide if it’s something that I am willing to commit to, the kids and the marriage. But my main thoughts are I shouldn’t be feeling the pressure. She needs to compromise as well; it’s not just me that should be pleasing her. Its takes two!

I think date 6, which she organised went very well. I’ve not spoken much to her since as she’s been very distant with her texting. She’s away now for 2 weeks. But in conclusion I feel like if I just tone it down a tad and also make her work for me as it’s only fair. I will date other women and if it works with them. Great! But I feel like sticking around, as I can learn a lot from this. I just need to step back and learn rather than take it too seriously?

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

~~I feel like a lot of the time I do lack confidence, and that’s simply of how shitty women are with me especially when I am just a genuine nice guy.~~

~~It's the way of the world that being a nice guy often means going too far in the wrong direction, to where we sacrifice our own desires and violate our own boundaries, just to please others.~~

~~So yes, there are some shitty people out there, but honestly, a lot of nice guys do it to themselves.~~

~~(I include Old Me from my teenage years, in this statement.)~~

I guess that’s why I and this girl have worked out so well, because we both lack that confidence that everyone else has. I don’t know?

That "everyone else has?" Not even. It just seems like that to you now. But everyone has their moments of low confidence.

And everyone is at different levels of confidence in themselves and many people feel confident in some situations and not others.

~~It’s very hard this day and age to find someone and yeah maybe I’ve put my eggs in one basket.~~

~~It can certainly feel that way, but it's nothing to do with "this day and age."~~

~~There's always been~~ ~~something~~ ~~that has made it hard to find a match for people, throughout the ages.~~

~~Confidence really does play a huge huge role. One of my buddies really does well for himself, financially. Like he basically~~ ~~could~~ ~~retire right now if he wasn't picky about what he did.~~

And despite this, he has shot himself in the foot, often due to confidence. The guy is savvy; when we were both younger, he did things I didn't know were possible. Like he had a reputation as the "Guy to Call for a Good Time," and even hooked up with one of his teachers while he was a high school student. It wasn't uncommon for girls to come up behind him in line waiting to get into a club, and feel him up, basically ready to leave with him on the spot.

~~There was a girl that he REALLY got along with and he talked himself out of doing anything 2-3 times. So she started dating a guy who was~~ ~~way~~ below her, if we assume that there are levels **(there aren'**t). Like she has a masters and he has a 2 year technical degree. She is cultured and he just talks about his favorite liquor. She is basically the very image of the head cheerleader. Athletic, hot, toned body. And he is awkward and not that attractive, technically speaking.

~~By any objective measure, he looks WAY out of his depth.~~

~~So how did he get in there? Why did she commit to him, for the first time that she committed to anyone? Why did she marry him?~~

~~He was a decent guy and confident.~~

Of course, he has been fucking things up in his game, from a technical standpoint; he's kind of an idiot. But the fact remains, there are WAY more options than you may realize, if only you allow yourself the luxury of believing in your own value.

~~There are things you can bring to the table, that no one else will be able to bring.~~

~~This girl is not the only option you have.~~

I feel like I lack some understanding of her, and how she really does feel. I know you say she has told me everything but date 6 really did tell me a lot more than we know. This girl is far more hurt than you can honestly imagine.

I mean, we're all human. There are girls out there who've dealt with incest by family members like their father or uncle. Or girls who've been raped.

Based on what you've said, she doesn't sound like she has damage like that

We hit this off on date 1 and it's been there ever since we've dated. In person that's never ever waned. I share myself and how I feel and what's currently going on in my life.....

Never waned? Except when she's telling you that she doesn't think it will work. Or when she's telling you that it can't be serious. Or things like that.

Sounds like you're glamorizing this.

~~I then shot myself in the foot again and apologised about not talking to her for a few days..... that whole idea of no contact was a very bad idea indeed.~~

~~Yeah, sometimes we talk too much, out of discomfort, when we need to keep our mouths shut.~~

~~And yeah, doing things to get back at a girl, pretty much doesn't work.~~

~~And if such things do work on a girl, it will be girl that will be HELL to date.~~

I made things awkward, but I think eventually things were fine. She literally wouldn’t tell me what she likes about me most. She wouldn’t even tell me anything.

Don't ask what she likes most about you. That's the worst f--king question. Girls ask that of me sometimes, and I honestly pretty much stop dating them at that point.

That question is born of massive insecurity. And ridiculously pointless. Why?

You can't fish for things like this. You're putting someone on the spot to define in logical language, something that isn't always translatable into words. It's hard enough for poets to answer this sort of question on the spot.
Then they feel shitty because they can't come up with an answer that's "good."
Or like me, they immediately go WTF and start divesting.
Why divest? Because this sort of question is super common among people who have gaping holes that they try to fill by getting validation from others. But that never ever works. It just emotionally exhausts everyone who will try and repels anyone else who is more emotionally balanced.
Plus, it's pointless because even if someone comes up with something to say, you forced them to so it'll never be worth as much as if the person just VOLUNTEERED a compliment

I even suggested if at any point she wants to chat and consol in me – she can. She literally got very defensive and said that’s not her, she doesn’t open up outside of her very close circle of friends for a very long time. Like she didn’t even with a guy she dated for 5 months. That’s just her.

Don't force something like this, man. You're hunting for validation by trying to get her to share personal things with you.

People do that on their own time, just like they'll offer compliments that actually mean something on their own.

If she wants to share anything, she'll offer that. You will never have to force it or TELL someone they can chat and be consoled by you.

I just feel like all this stuff she came out with after date 3 has put a heap of pressure on me to do well and do her right. Like it’s a huge thing and I can assure you it’s not easy knowing that’s what she wants and what I’ve got to open myself up to.

You got kind of the wrong message out of it.

Should you ever NOT do someone right?

The pressure is killing what chances you have, by putting everything under a microscope and keeping it from being as light and playful as it might otherwise be.

I need to decide if it’s something that I am willing to commit to, the kids and the marriage. But my main thoughts are I shouldn’t be feeling the pressure. She needs to compromise as well; it’s not just me that should be pleasing her. Its takes two!

Seems like you ought to take a step back and stop assuming pressure.

I know she mentioned pressure filled things, but at this point, if you really want to see what's what, you have to erase that from your memory and proceed into some sort of playful and light territory.

Too serious is going to choke the life out of this thing.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I feel like being a good guy isn't always a great thing though. It comes with some negatives; it comes with its positives. You've pretty much explained 'me' in a nutshell, it's partly why I'm always in a pickle with a female.

Something needs to change and feel that I need to be more positive about things. But you've been there, done that so no full well that it's just one of those traits we have.

I do have low morale and low confidence. I'm positing about this situation on Reddit! I mean that says it all - but it's more I want to better myself and do very well.

I think reading your buddies situation is that no matter what happens in life, there will always be someone out there for someone. I'm just less confident because everything is a big knock in my life. American College girl last year who was a cheerleader and I fancied lots, then there's a girl from work and now this. It's just multiple nails into my coffin and there is no end in sight.

I think I need to go back to the drawing board and self evaluate myself but most importantly concentrate on myself. Whilst you say there are things I can bring to the table, that no one else will be able to bring.

This girl is not the only option you have. She's currently is the only option I have.

I'm just not meeting any new people who have given me that spark or the same vibe as her and what she initially had. I had a date today who literally was awful. She downed two drinks and said she just doesn't feel a connection. Like I just didn't fancy her at all, she was disgusting. Not my type and complete unlike her pictures.

But she shouted it really loudly to me in the bar so everyone could hear what she was saying. She knew nothing about me and neither did I want her to know. Did she have to have an exit such as that? No - she clearly is single for a reason.

That's an awful thing to happen, but she's a daddies girl. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it. But she's confident about what she wants and knows what she wants. The two relationships she's had haven't worked out and it's all down to what she wants and what they didn't want.

Well I agree with what your saying but she's got warmer in person. I really could sense some sort of vibe that I haven't got since date 3. This was her favourite, which explains the last 3 haven't been that great. I think the next one I'll do, she'll thoroughly enjoy.

I believe she wants to see me again despite me making it a bit awkward with the questions. Like I asked her at the end if we'd see each-other again, she questioned why wouldn't we? I fully agree these were the wrong things to do. But is verbal affirmation even the right course of action? Maybe I should just sit tight - play light with her and allow the affirmation which she's giving already.

She's letting me rub her inner thigh, like as close as you can imagine. I even asked her if I could kiss her neck. She let me. (Somebody on here told me to do that, as a girl will love it and I think that worked really well.) Baring in mind we was in a bar at this point!! She then hugged me and held my back and gently rubbed it for a bit. We did have a few long kisses and lots more hugging. Maybe I am glamorising this? But then she's letting these intimate things happen and that's a good pace at the moment for her. I feel escalation wouldn't work with this one.

I feel like this is a girl that I am destined to fail with if I keep going the way I am going. I just need to take a more chilled attitude that I showed on the first three dates and talk to her a bit more and see what happens.

She's now away for 2 weeks and potentially won't see her for 3 weeks as she comes back to work and probably will be going on dates with another guy or something. I mean so be it, I know what I can offer and what they can't. In fact it's better she realises what kinda guys she attracts.

My only worry is, her texts have literally got smaller and smaller as times has gone on. Mostly after Date 4. In fact I've backed off on my texts now and very rarely try text her as soon as she messages me.

I showed our texts to a girl I have dated before and her feedback was this.

"This is what I mean. You keep thinking about in the long run and relationship and when it wasn’t what you expected you just stopped. That isn’t something that’s fair and she can feel it, the pressure of you thinking you need/want to be in a relationship. Things like this take time. It takes the two of you so she needs to feel as involved as you’re u do. It can’t just be you pushing for it and when you don’t get it you don’t message her. Be a friend first, just a hello how are you. Or a short have a good holiday is enough. Just tone it down a tad and also make her work to get you as well."

She seems to think that my texts need to be less involved and show the same level as her. I feel that's very hard as I am a great conversation. I text a girl from work for 2 months solid with essay messages. This slowly drew more blunt and less enthusiastic. But then what she does in person doesn't really equate to lack of interest. But at this moment I am trying to distance myself from overthinking about this whole situation as it's drove me nuts.

So in conclusion -

She wants to take things slow, because she has been hurt before
She wants to take things slow, because she likes me more than she’s liked anyone in a while. She doesn’t want to fuck this up!?

Re-Edited on PC as typos on Mobile.

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[EDIT: Adding ~~strikethrough~~ to designate clearly which parts of my replies have been rendered incorrect because of increasing information about the overall situation.]

I feel like being a good guy isn't always a great thing though. It comes with some negatives; it comes with its positives.

Kind of what I said, right? Nice guy is usually good at being attentive and actively listening, which are vital things to be good at. But often not so good at enforcing their own boundaries and self-respect, as they try to please others.

Being a doormat; not so attractive. I've been there.

Something needs to change and feel that I need to be more positive about things. But you've been there, done that so no full well that it's just one of those traits we have.

Some of what you might be considering "traits," might be aspects of yourself that you can shift or alter. You might look into cognitive behavioral therapy.

I think reading your buddies situation is that no matter what happens in life, there will always be someone out there for someone.

I don't know about someone for everyone.

I do know that confidence increases your chances.

And that many ideas we have about a guy needing to be at the "same level or higher" than the girl he's interested in, to have a chance..... these ideas are BULLSHIT.

This girl is not the only option you have. She's currently is the only option I have.

She's the only option you have your eyes on.

You're currently spending (WASTING?) your time on this option now.

The moment you took your energy and put it into other things, you'd start to see the other options around you.

Until then, you'll be too distracted and tied up to see a lot of things.

I'm just not meeting any new people who have given me that spark or the same vibe as her and what she initially had. I had a date today who literally was awful. She downed two drinks and said she just doesn't feel a connection. Like I just didn't fancy her at all, she was disgusting. Not my type and complete unlike her pictures.

You're talking about social activity as if the only options for meeting new people is having dates with random people.

So so false.

There are SO many options for joining events and groups that get together on a regular basis, just for strangers to meet strangers. It's like a group blind date where you have other people to talk to in case any particular interaction gets awkward.

~~Well I agree with what your saying but she's got warmer in person.....~~

~~You seem to still be putting lipstick on a pig here.~~

~~You see the issues and know you should probably peace out. But you keep looking for excuses to see a chance for something that she herself has already said isn't in the cards.~~

I believe she wants to see me again despite me making it a bit awkward with the questions. Like I asked her at the end if we'd see each-other again, she questioned why wouldn't we? I fully agree these were the wrong things to do. But is verbal affirmation even the right course of action? Maybe I should just sit tight - play light with her and allow the affirmation which she's giving already.

Yeah, you shouldn't EVER be asking these sorts of questions. The answers you get from asking these questions, completely negates/cancels out the significance of any answer you get. It's like how an apology from a child that is forced, is worthless.

So too, is it worthless if you have to ask her what she likes best about you.

And as for whether you'd see her again, this is a really really pointless question too. You don't need the answer to this question because when you set the next meet up, she's giving you the answer to this question as she agrees to meet.

Plus, you asking actually makes her more likely to NOT want to see you again.

You think you want and need the answer to this question, but you're fucking yourself over instead. What you need to do is work on quieting the voice in your head that keeps driving you to ask these sorts of questions.

Really.

She's letting me rub her inner thigh, like as close as you can imagine. I even asked her if I could kiss her neck. She let me. (Somebody on here told me to do that, as a girl will love it and I think that worked really well.)

Ugh. It's not about whether she LETS you.

It's about a guy testing the waters with a girl, and paying attention to the feedback she gives you.

You don't ASK if you can kiss her neck. And it's worthless if she LETS you.

What's worth something? When she shoves her neck into your mouth because she wants your mouth on it. Or when she's touching you, not just tolerating your touch.

My only worry is, her texts have literally got smaller and smaller as times has gone on. Mostly after Date 4. In fact I've backed off on my texts now and very rarely try text her as soon as she messages me.

Texting is worthless to be fussing about. You need to be focused on setting a meet. Then put the phone down and stop checking for replies!

Spending all this time analyzing her replies is a damn waste of time.

She seems to think that my texts need to be less involved and show the same level as her. I feel that's very hard as I am a great conversation. I text a girl from work for 2 months solid with essay messages.

So has this girl you're dating been the one pressuring for serious stuff like marriage, or have you been the one? I'm getting confused.

In any case, essay messages, shouldn't be happening until maybe after you know someone for a few years. You're way off track pulling that stuff.

It doesn't matter whether you are a great conversationalist or not. You have a life outside of your phone and your inboxes. And by spending all this time composing messages, you're disrespecting yourself and neglecting your life.

It's not attractive.

So in conclusion

You have to chill a bit.

Seriously, put the phone down. Put it in Airplane Mode if you have to. Set 2-3 times a day to check it. Then forget about it and get on with your day.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well everything is out the window now! I got literally fed up with her responses so I called her out on it but it ended in absolute failure. https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/8pcvmc/what_a_disaster_but_oh_well/

Anyway all what you previously said now makes perfect sense and I've taken these rose-tinted glasses off and now look at it with the perspective that I can better myself from this. That I was trying to fix a burned girl with baggage and that was my problem. She can't be fixed, except herself.

I think I've been too hard on myself these last few weeks, I really have. I've noticed with Online dating there is an alarmingly increasing number of women who believe they’re too damaged from their pasts for happiness in the present.

I've realised that most people you date online will be hard work from the outset and that's because of how all responses ultimately circled around one common issue: a troubled dating past and its long-term effects.

I think you'll have fun reading my other topic of the latest development, but you saw it and many people saw this coming before I did. She obviously wanted to control me and was very manipulative. I just didn't see it.

But the preal problem was with her control is that she was inhibiting herself from maintaining, and flourishing, in a relationship. Look at what happened when I called her out on this before? Then she took control again and made it clear what she wants of me. I've done it again but came unstuck as I did honestly lie as I didn't want to come across as a fucking freak show.

She's not that long out of her past relationship, so she's extremely guarded. Especially when she knows that opening up to a guy doesn't always work out. But then as you alluded to before, she comes across as wanting casual to a guy then decided to go through the process of pinning him down - probably when he was very much least likely to want that in the first place.

I've done my bit now, I've left the door open (that's only fair?) but I need to walk my head high in this situation and just remember how well I treated this girl and probably the 6 best dates I've ever had. The first 3 were amazing, literally amazing.

So has this girl you're dating been the one pressuring for serious stuff like marriage, or have you been the one?

No she pressured me post-Date 3. I took it upon myself to be that guy who'd give her what she wants. This is when the problems actually started. She kept looking for other options, she kept telling me she wants things to go slower and she's not ready for this, ready for that. What she was telling me probably was "I am not wanting anything with you" - I am just her stop gap.

It'll explain her shortened texts? Before I literally flipped! Oh boy was I not impressed this morning :P

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well everything is out the window now! I got literally fed up with her responses so I called her out on it but it ended in absolute failure.

Calling people out is a complete waste of time. Unless maybe you've been invested in them for YEARS as a friend or relationship of some kind. Or maybe you have a work relationship with them. And even then, direct "calling out" is usually such a blunt instrument that the negative effects far outweigh any possible positive benefits.

Long story short, "calling someone out" makes you feel like you're taking a stand or getting something done, when really you're usually taking a big fucking dump on the possibility of constructive relations moving forward.

And with this girl, bothering to call her out was you throwing more investment into a situation that didn't merit it. Think about it. All the things this girl was doing, and the place she was coming from: did you really think that slapping her across the face verbally like that was going to make her go, "Oh right, I'm so wrong, let me change the things YOU think are wrong."

People don't work like that. Maybe in the movies. Not in real life. In real life, people often double down on whatever their stance is when you come at them like that.

I was seeing this girl but her texts towards me had been very short-coming. Very blunt, not engaging so I thought fuck it I'll call her out on it. It sent, but then I looked at it again and it came across as needy. But it wasn't my intentions.

A lot of the short messages she was replying with, were EASILY explainable by the kinds of needy questions you were hitting her with.

Asking her what she likes best about you? Asking whether you'll see her again?

Dude. If anyone asks ME those kinds of questions, I pretty much ghost them at that point because it doesn't end well dating someone who needs those kinds of reassurances all the time. It never ends.

You really ought to be examining why you were asking those things. These questions indicate needs inside yourself that you need to be meeting differently than from women you try to date.

You get reassurances from family, yourself, or a network of close friends. Not women you're JUST starting to date. When you burden a new person you're dating with that, you're unintentionally saying to them: I'm a mess who can't take care of his own emotional well-being and I'll be increasingly demanding of you emotionally until it's exhausting.

SO I sent her this and left her alone. But I have probably done myself a favour, as she's been very manipulative.

I know. It was out of character of me....

You can't put this all on her. And was it really out of character?

Both of you were a mess here. She might have been insecure as hell and pushing for reassurances about children and marriage way too early, while barring exploration of the relationship, but you were hitting her up with a LOT of insecure requests for reassurances.

Enough that it drove her away, as insecure as she is. You can certainly say that she was not healthy to be around, but she held a mirror up to you, as unpleasant as that might be to consider.

If you want something good in a relationship, you must look to be improving yourself.

Anyway all what you previously said now makes perfect sense and I've taken these rose-tinted glasses off and now look at it with the perspective that I can better myself from this. That I was trying to fix a burned girl with baggage and that was my problem. She can't be fixed, except herself.

Yes, trying to fix her was part of the problem, but whether you adopted her insecurities or had your own insecurities all along, this whole interaction with her brought your own issues to the surface.

And those won't be going away just because you stop interacting with this girl. If you're not careful, you're going to scare good prospects away unless you start finding ways to meet your own emotional needs better.

I've realised that most people you date online will be hard work from the outset and that's because of how all responses ultimately circled around one common issue: a troubled dating past and its long-term effects.

The major issue is that trying to make a social life solely from scrolling through online dating apps, is a poor poor way to go about it.

There is no substitute for making a social life for yourself in person. Using social media to find groups or events to go to, and then just go meet people in person. Create social circles for yourself and meet guys and girls in person.

But the preal problem was with her control is that she was inhibiting herself from maintaining, and flourishing, in a relationship. Look at what happened when I called her out on this before? Then she took control again and made it clear what she wants of me. I've done it again but came unstuck as I did honestly lie as I didn't want to come across as a fucking freak show.

What I read from the situation is that she had a fear of abandonment that led to her ironically pushing guys away preemptively or holding them away, to prevent herself from being abandoned.

But you started doing the same thing in response. Assuming she was casually fucking around while dating you, etc.

Calling her out didn't help and wouldn't ever have helped, even if you hadn't lied about it.

And neither of you were a freak show. You're both having very HUMAN emotional reactions to the situation.

No she pressured me post-Date 3. I took it upon myself to be that guy who'd give her what she wants. This is when the problems actually started.

No. The problems were seeded from before you met each other.

You both brought your fears and insecurities to the interaction and let them run you.

Trying to "be that guy" was just compounding the issues that were already there.

She kept looking for other options, she kept telling me she wants things to go slower and she's not ready for this, ready for that.

You really read her wrong. I saw little to no indication that she was dating other guys. Your insecurity was leading you to that conclusion.

She legit seemed to want to go slower, but there was also a lot of fear in her that was arresting any development there beyond a certain point.

What she was telling me probably was "I am not wanting anything with you" - I am just her stop gap.

You keep coming to this erroneous conclusion that you were a stop gap.

But as far as I know, you guys didn't physically escalate past a certain point, right? No kissing? No sex?

Stop gaps involve someone getting off in some way physically before it blows up. I don't recall things getting that far in this case.
Your assessment that she was just "using you" as a "stop gap," is more about your fear, than the evidence. This kind of fear will rear its head again in the future if you're not careful.
She kept showing time and time again, that she really was looking for something monogamous and she was walking the walk,.....
.....at least, she was focused on dating only you, until you started getting increasingly insecure with your questions about what she likes best about you or whether you'd see her again.
She was self-sabotaging herself in how she had those strange rules, etc.
But you matched the self-sabotage after you misread the signs; this woman was desperate to ensure that you wouldn't abandon her, and you determined that she was actually casually dating around on you and using you, when the important evidence contradicted that. And ironically, your own insecurity outshone her by the end, leading to that big blow-up.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I honestly inherently agree with you. It isn't constructive by all means, it's very confrontational. But I meant it with good reasons. I wanted to 'fix' something that probably wasn't broken, but in my mind she'd never stooped to this level of bluntness.

Something wasn't right but you've probably alluded to it.

A lot of the short messages she was replying with, were EASILY explainable by the kinds of needy questions you were hitting her with.

I felt like with each message I sent her, I was getting nowhere. She literally didn't want a conversation with me - that's how I felt when I was reading her response. No matter what I did or said to her, she literally showed zero back to me. I said to her night before yesterday, I hope her sleeps better than mine. Thanks. Is all I got in response to that, whereas previously she'd ask more in depth and question me.

I even asked if she was tanning in general. On date 6 she said she burns rather than tans, but sunning up is tanning in British culture, it's just another word for the same thing. She was very blunt/short with me in the response to that.

Now I'll go back to my dude response to this two weeks ago, post date 5. I called her out on her behaviours and gave her reassurances but it came across as pressure to settle into a relationship, which you felt was a very bad idea right? This isn't the first time she's been very weird with me - but you think it's a human reaction to the fact she's reacting to her fears?

I know she mentioned pressure filled things, but at this point, if you really want to see what's what, you have to erase that from your memory and proceed into some sort of playful and light territory.

So I did that, I toned my messages down and brought it down to a more 'friendship' level and didn't cross any boundaries. I reduced compliments and kept it light and playful. That was met with pure bluntness on her part.

But this isn't about choking the life out of it and not being playful. This is me attempting to talk to her as a friend, and tell her about what's bugging me most right now. The work situation which she doesn't know about (Which I was hoping would be resolved about 2 months ago.) has put an unbelievable amount of pressure on my shoulders. Not something that I've ignored, but something I would hope would resolved itself and I could go back to living my normal life.

She knows I am NOT at work, but doesn't know the real reasons. I feel like I could/should tell her but then her reactions to every strong conversation we have doesn't work well. It fills me with about as much confidence as a Heinz Beans Can.

This is the third occurrence or hang-up we've had in 2 months. First one was on her but that was a misunderstanding, second one was on me (really) for my little speech and the third one is kinda on me but then she has to take into account that the way she was messaging me was fairly inconsiderate. Why would you be so blunt with a guy your dating and supposedly like, unless your talking to another dude or multiple dudes and are confused or in the case above where you feel.

A lot of the short messages she was replying with, were EASILY explainable by the kinds of needy questions you were hitting her with.

But then that was cleared up, she made her peace. She told me she doesn't open up for a very long time because people only say to her what she wants to hear. She doesn't trust people very easily and only relates things to a very close circle of friends. Although you was inclined to think she told me a lot more than I alluded to? With her past relationships, fuck ups and how she feels.

Seems like you ought to take a step back and stop assuming pressure.

This is all I did this week whilst she was away, and it just felt like I wasn't to message her anymore.

I ONLY kept messaging her simply on the basis that she said the following last time I ghosted her.

It didn't mean I needed you to just completely stop talking to me, just take things at an easier pace, to see how things go rather than what felt like pushing.

The huge lessons I've learned from this now is that once I sort my work situation out is that I'll do the things for me, whatever they are. My passions and ambitions and ultimately my real dreams. I won't be using online dating anymore. I'll take my friends advice and go Bouldering with him. He's picked up at least 3-4 girls from there and got a 100% seduction rate, how I don't know.

But it's a great place to go an meet people vs a nightclub. The online dating world sends the message to people that you're not good enough the way you are. Right? I mean this girl even said to me she won't date people at her work or social circles, and most of her relationships or people she's seen have been through online dating. Her last relationship was exactly that. Online dating has a high rate of failure for me.

Her first (5 years) was probably during he college/university years and then her last was most likely during her working years. I don't know how the former turned out, as I've not been that daredevil to ask. I won't ask (Even though I'll never have the chance now haha!) but we know the details of her 2 year relationship and how that ended.

What I read from the situation is that she had a fear of abandonment that led to her ironically pushing guys away preemptively or holding them away, to prevent herself from being abandoned.

Be perfectly honest, and I ask this question as I care about her a lot. Will she ever get over this? I mean this little thing hasn't really filled her with confidence. I've lied to her. Okay her reaction was simply over the top and ultimately I've realised right now that my happiness is more important than a dead-end, waste of time relationship. You knew this would likely end in failure and I knew it was coming and it's reason number 1 why I had to call her out. Because I deserve better than someone who makes me feel this way.

Okay I am not in the best place right now with work and this girl isn't to know how low I am feeling. But I hide it, I block it away and I push away and that's how I cope. Is I bottle up everything and I've been speaking to some counsellors about my work situation and they feel that I am coping very well.

EXCEPT - the last few days, her messages have been shit. There was no respect. I shouldn't have to fight for her and for her to listen to what I have to say. I literally couldn't express my thoughts or opinions and the last few days her messages really gave me that sense of feeling belittled. Which is really fucked up.

I do believe everything happens for a reason. What happened yesterday, this implosion was probably the end of the relationship that we had. Whilst not a relationship as such, the ship has sunk rather than beached on the sand. It kept getting beached and I was wondering why? I kept trying to sail in the distance with a bright outlook on the future but she just kept pegging me back in a manipulative way.

I honestly feel like she's manipulative and that I have no choice but to stay with her. That's how I felt in person with her and then had to deal with really dead end texting in-between the last 3 dates.

You really read her wrong. I saw little to no indication that she was dating other guys. Your insecurity was leading you to that conclusion.

Maybe your right, maybe it was all in my head and that's pushed her away. But then as you say - look in the mirror - take a good look at myself and answer the following question. Is this really me right now?

She legit seemed to want to go slower, but there was also a lot of fear in her that was arresting any development there beyond a certain point.

I agreed to that. But by blunt replying me that's taking things to the next level. It says to me two things.

I am no longer interested - stop talking to me
I am no longer interested - but your amusing and I'll keep amusing you till I find another option.

This is why I called her out on it. There was no other reason other than I felt like shit talking to her.

Talking of the reasons we met. I feel like I've gave her a sense that some guys are different and that they'll go all out for her. I really hope she finds that special someone online (I know she won't) and a lot of my female friends who have known me longer feel like this will be her loss more than mine. They are also fully aware of my work situation (Which I legally can't go into details).

But as far as I know, you guys didn't physically escalate past a certain point, right? No kissing? No sex?

We kissed every date. We hugged too. 1-6 was very intimate. 1 and 6 was the most intimate. Date 1 I was incredibly handsy and date 2 she was more feeling.

Let's assume that what you say is the case.

But you matched the self-sabotage after you misread the signs; this woman was desperate to ensure that you wouldn't abandon her, and you determined that she was actually casually dating around on you and using you, when the important evidence contradicted that. And ironically, your own insecurity outshone her by the end, leading to that big blow-up.

Do you think she'll ever contact me again. I'll leave you with our last texts transcript - whilst you don't have a crystal ball; do you think she'll resurrect or now I can safely say it's time to just let go and move on? Because I can't fix her. I wanted to be there for her and I've said I always will but that's ultimately down to her now.

[07/06, 08:15] Me': Is everything okay with you?

[07/06, 09:36] Her: Yeah, why’d you ask?

[07/06, 09:44] Me': Just hoping we are good?

[07/06, 11:03] Her': Glad to hear! 📷 When's other family coming?

[07/06, 11:13] Me: We’re fine, how comes you deleted your message? They are coming in Saturday, just had a FaceTime with them which was nice

[07/06, 11:27] Her': I typed the wrong message into the wrong convo 📷 That's really cute - is your dad picking them up then? Will be nice to have the whole family together.

[07/06, 12:13] Me: Not sure why you feel the need to lie but ok, yeah he is

[07/06, 12:29] Her': I'm just feeling a little stressed out at the moment, your not the only one I sent the wrong message too.

[07/06, 12:30] Me: Hope your days going well x

([07/06, 12:52] Her: That’s funny because I get sent a preview of my what’s app messages on my lock screen and I saw the preview before I answered my sisters FaceTime call, the message said because you felt I was being short with you and you only asked because you care, so I think it was meant for me)

([07/06, 12:53] Me': Your right I am sorry! I made an error in judgement by sending the message and when I read it I realised it wasn't cool. I am under stress at work and I was hoping you'd cheer me up at the moment because you make me happy but I've realised I went the wrong way about it. Sorry once again!)

([07/06, 13:03] Her: Still not a reason to lie, could have easily said I sent something which didn’t come across great so deleted it rather than lie. Even when I said I knew your reason wasn’t true you insisted it was until I proved it. I really hate being lied to)

([07/06, 16:19] Me': I know. It was out of character of me. I’m sorry that I lied about why I deleted the message even more so when I denied the real reason behind it. I feel so sad and I regret that I lied to you. What I did was absolutely wrong. I fully respect your decision whatever that might be. I'm not ceasing communication with you as that's probably not what you want but that I respect your space and that your on holiday. I'm here when you feel ready to talk again.)

Like her reaction is well over the top, but lieing is lieing. I guess I'll have to face the consequences rather than reap any benefits from this.

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I felt like with each message I sent her, I was getting nowhere. She literally didn't want a conversation with me - that's how I felt....

Keywords: I felt.

This is honestly coming off like something you have to manage within yourself. And yes, I'm saying this even after reading the transcript, which by the way, I'll get to, but holy cow does it come off like you've been letting insecurity/fear run wild with this.

No matter what I did or said to her, she literally showed zero back to me. ....previously she'd ask more in depth and question me.

Saying you hope she sleeps better than you, doesn't REQUIRE a response.

If this is indicative of the sorts of things you've been building resentment over, then you've kind of been doing this to yourself.

Sometimes people will dig deeper, but it's honestly ridiculous to expect people to always go fishing.

Why would you be so blunt with a guy your dating....unless your talking to another dude or multiple dudes ....

Again, this boils down to your assumptions. You were assuming she was being blunt or cold, etc. And from that apparently erroneous conclusion, you were jumping even further into incorrect territory, assuming other dudes or whatever.

Most of the issues here seem to stem from you trying to get texting to replace in-person interactions, instead of waiting for those times you saw her, which were all pretty good from your accounts.

Texting is for logistics, at least for the first few months. By trying to have all these long conversations over text, you have been fucking yourself, apparently. And honestly, from what I read below, she seems mostly confused at these castles you've been building in the sky.

I ONLY kept messaging her simply on the basis that she said the following last time I ghosted her.

*"It didn't mean I needed you to just completely stop talking to me, just take things at an easier pace, to see how things go rather than what felt like pushing."*

Yeah, this goes in the same file for "check yourself for passive-aggressiveness."

It comes off like she asked for some slow-down, which is normal, and to be honest, is something you probably should have been picking up on without her having to spell it out.

And you responded with spite. Like you assumed it was doom or the beginning of the end that she asked for that, so you just started preparing yourself for the end and ignoring her. Or perhaps trying to manipulate her into coming back to the sort of pace you prefer.

A lot of her messaging doesn't come off like she was pushing hard for as much as you seem to have represented. It comes off like she is responding over and over again to you pushing too hard. Perhaps you assumed wrongly about her from the beginning.

Like maybe she said she wanted something serious and you assumed the pace and assumed incorrectly that she wanted "fast."

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The huge lessons I've learned from this now is that once I sort my work situation out is that I'll do the things for me...

You do need a social life that's not geared around you getting at women. Something that's for you. Something that creates a social circle for you. Having a lively social life that's not dependent on a girl being the center of it, is VERY important.

I'll take my friends advice and go Bouldering with him. He's picked up at least 3-4 girls from there and got a 100% seduction rate....

Honestly, it's probably related to his own abilities that he's already developed. You might be able to learn from him.

But it's a great place to go an meet people vs a nightclub....

I personally like outdoor stuff and physical stuff too, but also night clubs. There are just things you can experience and do that aren't possible in other situations. Of course if you want something serious, then clubs aren't going to be the best thing for you.

Will she ever get over this? I mean this little thing hasn't really filled her with confidence. I've lied to her. Okay her reaction was simply over the top....

Will she ever find happiness? Not your role. Not your job. Even if you were in a happy relationship with her, it wouldn't be. Everyone has to be able to make their own happiness.As for her reaction, after reading the interaction, your reaction actually comes off more over the top and hers seems actually reasonable and just gently concerned.I'll get more into that below.

Is I bottle up everything and I've been speaking to some counsellors about my work situation and they feel that I am coping very well.

It's important you have someone to talk to about these things. Someone not a person you're trying to date.

But by blunt replying me that's taking things to the next level. It says to me two things.

* I am no longer interested - stop talking to me

* I am no longer interested - but your amusing and I'll keep amusing you till I find another option.

Which is just ironic. Because the direct quotes you've supplied to me don't say either of these things AT ALL. She says, hey, slow up a bit, don't go away. And you're like FUCK OFF? OKAY I'M OUT. Or you decide she's saying, "Imma fuck other dudes and use you until I find I want longer term."All of which is just WAY out of line with what she has actually said.

9; Buckle up

[07/06, 08:15] Me': Is everything okay with you?

[07/06, 09:36] Her: Yeah, why’d you ask?

[07/06, 09:44] Me': Just hoping we are good?

[07/06, 11:03] Her': Glad to hear! 📷 When's other family coming?

She's seconding the hope that you guys are on good terms. And asking about family. Not bad.Maybe at this point you you were freaking out about how long she was taking to message back. You were on top of it though. But that kind of indicates that you're probably sitting on your Inbox. You shouldn't be sitting on your phone like that, if I'm reading that correctly.

[07/06, 11:13] Me: We’re fine, how comes you deleted your message? They are coming in Saturday, just had a FaceTime with them which was nice

[07/06, 11:27] Her': I typed the wrong message into the wrong convo 📷 That's really cute - is your dad picking them up then? Will be nice to have the whole family together.

She's still asking about some personal things and this seems like a good vibe. I'm not seeing issues right here at all. Almost seems good enough that you could have been meeting up with her again. But then....

[07/06, 12:13] Me: Not sure why you feel the need to lie but ok, yeah he is

[07/06, 12:29] Her': I'm just feeling a little stressed out at the moment, your not the only one I sent the wrong message too.

[07/06, 12:30] Me: Hope your days going well x

You went negative here, for no apparent reason. Accusing her of lying over something that didn't seem like a big deal and she had a reasonable explanation. I've done what she's done before.And I can tell you honestly, if a girl I was dating took a turn like that and accused me of lying, I'd be DONE.If this is the sort of thing you've been doing, assuming beyond what she's actually said over text and getting upset about it and lashing out at her like that, then it's no wonder that things have gone south.

[07/06, 12:52] Her: That’s funny because I get sent a preview of my what’s app messages on my lock screen and I saw the preview ....

You obviously shot yourself in the foot because now she obviously caught you out there. And it comes off like she has more solid ground to stand on.She probably did just brain fart and, where you legit meant to send that message to her and then tried to cover it up.

[07/06, 12:53] Me': Your right I am sorry! I made an error in judgement....

And holy crap. Even if you did send that message and delete it, it honestly wasn't that big of a fucking deal. Saying you thought she was being short, etc., Big whoop. Not some scandal that required lying to cover it up."Just stressed out and read your messages more harshly than you meant. I need sleep. Sorry if it worried you."Something like that, which apologized, made light of it, etc. Most importantly, short, to the point, and sweet and owned what you did, which wasn't a big deal really. Not an essay.

[07/06, 13:03] Her: Still not a reason to lie....Even when I said I knew your reason wasn’t true you insisted it was until I proved it.....

Here, she basically said you made things more awkward; you could have easily said that you could have owned up to sending it and it would have been fine.And you doubled down on it, which was worse. You really do need to talk with yourself about why you are responding to problems in this way, because being evasive or deceptive is only ever going to fuck you over.

[07/06, 16:19] Me': I know. It was out of character of me. I’m sorry that I lied about....

Christ man..... You just can't stop. You've apparently been doing it for awhile with her so you can't even say "it was out of character" without invalidating the apology. It's like saying you're sorry for drunk driving, by posting a video of you apologizing while doing shots.With things like this, they need to be short, sweet, to the point and just own it. Whatever IT is.And in other news, you really really need to address your own insecurities, which led to you sending that message you ended up deleting and then feeling like you had to lie about it.

Like her reaction is well over the top, but lieing is lieing. I guess I'll have to face the consequences rather than reap any benefits from this.

You can't keep doing this. You say her reaction was over the top. It wasn't; yours was.

Your insecure voice told you she wasn't giving you enough back and you let that voice write a message to her that was cringe-worthy and you know this.
Then you lied about it and tried to call her out to give more cover to what you did.
Her reaction was fully reasonable. She's had people lie to her. It's a reasonable sore spot. And here you are lying about something small and basic. This is honestly how it starts and I can totally see her point of view in this. (I've been on both sides of this and it really sucks to be the one catching someone in lies.)

You need to take care of yourself. This girl might be an option, unless she's literally said she's not. But your insecurity seems determined to fuck you out of the running here. You need to address this if you want to get better results with her or with the next one if it's over.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Absolute bugger! I didn't read the direct qoutes before I submitted after I removed names/numbers to me and her. So some of what you said is out of context.

Me': Is everything okay with you?)

Her: Yeah, why’d you ask?)

Me: Deleted Message

Me': Just hoping we are good?)

Me: Glad to hear!) 📷 When's other family coming?

Her: We’re fine, how comes you deleted your message? They are coming in Saturday, just had a FaceTime with them which was nice)

Me': I typed the wrong message into the wrong convo) 📷 That's really cute \ is your dad picking them up then? Will be nice to have the whole family together.)

Her: Not sure why you feel the need to lie but ok, yeah he is)

Me': I'm just feeling a little stressed out at the moment, your not the only one I sent the wrong message too.)

Me: Hope your days going well x)

Her: That’s funny because I get sent a preview of my what’s app messages on my lock screen and I saw the preview before I answered my sisters FaceTime call, the message said because you felt I was being short with you and you only asked because you care, so I think it was meant for me)

Me Your right I am sorry! I made an error in judgement by sending the message and when I read it I realised it wasn't cool. I am under stress at work and I was hoping you'd cheer me up at the moment because you make me happy but I've realised I went the wrong way about it. Sorry once again!)

Her: Still not a reason to lie, could have easily said I sent something which didn’t come across great so deleted it rather than lie. Even when I said I knew your reason wasn’t true you insisted it was until I proved it. I really hate being lied to)

Me': I know. It was out of character of me. I’m sorry that I lied about why I deleted the message even more so when I denied the real reason behind it. I feel so sad and I regret that I lied to you. What I did was absolutely wrong. I fully respect your decision whatever that might be. I'm not ceasing communication with you as that's probably not what you want but that I respect your space and that your on holiday. I'm here when you feel ready to talk again.)

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think your right about this thing that I have to manage myself. This is like the lowest point of my life right now, and I bottled it all up assuming that I could live a normal life whilst the work thing resolves itself. I've told very minimal people who I feel less vulnerable with.

I feel like with this girl I'd open myself up as extremely vulnerable and I wanted to come across as nothing like that at all. So I told her white lies about the whole work situation. But in fact it's none of her business and in the same way she doesn't trust me with what she feels is the same way I have insecurities right now.

I'll agree with you I was being pretty petty. But we've had amazing conversations before via text. I feel like we have so much to talk about. I just realised a lot between our last dates is she's dropped this off before I call her out on something or another she practically raises the bar and talks again. So it's no excuses really, she either does or doesn't want to talk to me.

Something is going on her life. I am a hugely good judge of character and when I look at her, I do see pain or hurt. It hurts me what her ex's did to her but then you've alluded to the fact she opens herself up to this sort of baggage.

I think you was right she wasn't seeing any other guys. I just assumed based on the fact she was still using online dating, but then the fear running wild and projecting her fears onto me has played off incredibly.

That text was after my little speed to her. I think her texts were what you said. She was asking for a slow down, and her short-texting me which was very obvious was her reaction to my actions. I just didn't see it. But one thing I know is that she wanted me to be there for her and I continued that as soon as I knew.

Texts at this point returned to normal. Saturday I put uncesscary pressure on her with regards to how she feels about me. Once again her short-texting was her reaction to my actions. That is a little unrecoverable now. Because I know she's always going to be like this if I push her for something she doesn't want. In fact I won't be pushing for a relationship for a very long time with her, in fact I don't even think it will work.

There's too much going out in my life to really allow things to be coming in. This whole work situation which is hanging by a thread should be resolved in the meantime.

I went out on a date last night, it wasn't great at all. I then decided to go chat to some other people - I had a 80% success rate and got two different peoples numbers. I much prefer the real life balance vs the virtual reality of Online dating.

I've deleted the apps simply because I can't cope with the issues you find there and many people have told me I don't need to be on those sort of places.

Honestly it's onwards and upwards!

Anyway talking of last night. I stuck the camera in front of two really pretty girls and posted it on my instagram story. This girl that I've had the falling out with has looked my instagram up and she's viewed my story. She doesn't follow me and she doesn't use instagram other than to look at pictures of animals.

I found it incredible that she's watching over me whilst I've left her in the midst of it all for her to come to me when and if she ever feels ready. I am guessing if she didn't like me at all, she wouldn't be stalking me? If she already followed me then I'd know for sure that I am overthinking this but she does not use Instagram at all. This was posted at midnight UK, 2am her time (As she's away right now). She pretty much must have viewed instantly.

Whilst I agree with you that it's not fair talking about these things to someone I date. She's facing a similar situation with work. Where she may have to hand her notice in due to the stress new manager is putting her under. Mines a little different but I do show concern towards that for her.

I just don't know what she'll ever come back to me with, but I feel like she needs to know the gravity of my work situation as right now I have no security and it comes across as I am insecure person. When I am not. This is the whole reason I've been so sketchy and uncomfortable about what she gets up too.

Yes the message I sent her wasn't a big deal. I should never have sent it though, but I feel sad about how she probably is feeling right now. I don't know what else to do other than give her the most unlimited space and let her decide what she wants. I mean she's now stalking me, to see what I get up too. I am not playing it up and I am most certaintly not playing it down.

But I did the worst thing to this girl and that was lie. It was a white lie but still an incredible thing to do to a girl that will never learn to trust someone very easily. Two months in I've lied about something so small. I can only imagine if she thinks I lied about wanting kids and marriage and that I like her a lot.

Not sure what to do other than let time heal and distance to make the heart grow fonder.

It is a reasonable sore spot for her and I feel like I've destroyed every little bit of confidence in her, but in all honest I am not a liar. Not a very good one at that. She didn't take long to suss that out - so not sure how I could build on that and get things back on track with her.

I know you've said it's far less stress and far easier to walk away but a LOT of this is on me and not her. Okay she's had hang ups but this whole work thing has been killing me inside and it's my future. She really knows how much I love my passions, so maybe it's something she'll understand. Maybe it's something she won't?

I reckon she's pretty close to messaging me based on that Instagram stalk. I guess that's pretty normal for a girl who's got feelings for someone?

I never lied about how I felt to her and I definitely did not lie about all the things I want with her. But this must be putting some huge doubt into her head right now. Which is wrong and I am not sure how one can fix that or explain themselves. This work thing is the issue and she isn't fully aware; although I alluded to it in an Instagram post. Not sure if she stalked that - probably.

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

....But we've had amazing conversations before via text. I feel like we have so much to talk about. I just realised a lot between our last dates is she's dropped this off before I call her out on something or another she practically raises the bar and talks again. So it's no excuses really, she either does or doesn't want to talk to me.

This is such a common occurrence. People often start off texting a lot in the beginning.

And then life intrudes and one or both people realize that they have things in front of themselves that they must put the phone down for.

But expectations often build up in that early going and they're usually dashed when the texting frequency goes down, leaving someone feeling like something is wrong or that someone is playing games when they're really not and everything is actually just normal.

Something is going on her life. I am a hugely good judge of character and when I look at her, I do see pain or hurt. It hurts me what her ex's did to her but then you've alluded to the fact she opens herself up to this sort of baggage.

Unless you've left a lot out, there's not necessarily this degree of drama that you might be assuming.

And while empathy and consideration are great, you seem to be taking possession of her pain, when it's not quite your place.

Also, she hasn't necessarily done something to "open herself up to baggage." We all have ways of attracting our own life lessons to us. I wasn't necessarily "alluding" to anything. I directly said that what she was doing came off as a normal reaction to stuff that's probably happened to her before.

What that is, is not your business to fix and it's not even worth worrying about figuring out.

Especially when you probably have more than enough to work on, to get to a place where you're not feeling the need to cover-up things.

This whole work situation which is hanging by a thread should be resolved in the meantime.

Sounds like that should definitely be the priority for the moment.

Anyway talking of last night. I stuck the camera in front of two really pretty girls and posted it on my instagram story. This girl that I've had the falling out with has looked my instagram up and she's viewed my story.

Do you find it ironic that you were convinced that she was seeing other dudes, and then you go out of your way to post something like that publicly, to put out a certain image?

If you hadn't killed it by lying to her just recently and then fumbling the apology awkwardly, then doing something like this IG story, would definitely have made you seem even more like someone she doesn't want to date.

I found it incredible that she's watching over me whilst I've left her in the midst of it all for her to come to me when and if she ever feels ready. I am guessing if she didn't like me at all, she wouldn't be stalking me?

Of course she would be checking on you. She TOLD you that she's got trust issues. Those lead to people gathering information and being rather attentive, with intent to catch inconsistencies in what people say or do.

You're so caught up in the fact she was paying attention. Even though this shouldn't be a surprise based on what she's said and done so far. You seem to have had this huge doubt as to whether she was interested, and it's led to all these dysfunctional responses from you.

But all the while you have overlooked that these insecure responses you've had, will actually have the effect of making her uninterested.

You have lied to her and nullified your apology as you were giving it.

Now you've nullified your whole "I'm waiting here for you" thing, by making it clear that you're out there in the market trying to get with people.

I just don't know what she'll ever come back to me with, but I feel like she needs to know the gravity of my work situation

No. Dumping your work situation on her won't change anything. It would come off as an attempt to gloss over your mistakes with a bid for sympathy.

And anyway, the whole issue is not that you have problems. Everyone has them.

What matters is how people respond to problems. You have to address this. Because your response to adversity has been things like lying. Your response to your self-esteem issues has been to put all this stuff on her, that's actually for you to fix.

I know it's tempting to try to look for some reason, something you could pin it all on, to make it look like you've got it all solved, but the truth is, the issues you're working on here wouldn't be solved if you had a great job.

This is the whole reason I've been so sketchy and uncomfortable about what she gets up too

Your work situation has nothing to do with your insecurity about her.

But I did the worst thing to this girl and that was lie. It was a white lie but still an incredible thing to do to a girl that will never learn to trust someone very easily.

Let's not be dramatic here. "The worst thing" is subjective, but even so, there are lots of other things worse than lying as you did in this case.

And you've painted her as someone who will never learn to trust someone, when the larger trust issues appear to be on your end.

And in any case, being so focused on her issues, is a distraction from your own; if you truly want to move up and beyond this, you have to start improving yourself if you want something truly better.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've learnt that and I'll never do that again, it's clear with time that our texts were getting smaller and smaller. But that was nothing wrong with our relationship as such but more that as trust was building - less things needed to be done or said. I just took it the wrong way and I am very sorry for how I acted. It's something I've now got to live with for the rest of my life and rue the missed opportunity. I've accepted that with a very very heavy heart.

It's definitely my priority as I've tried to make amends following on from her message;

"To be honest haven't been talking as I'm not sure what to say to you, pretty miffed by you not not being honest with me over something so little, doesn't give off a great impression."

In response this is what I gave.

I'm really sorry for what I did. I panicked because I knew that I should never have sent that message in the first place, as at the end of the day you’re on holiday. I know I can't undo what happened, and I take fully responsibility for my actions; but I want you to know that I wish I could take it back, and I promise I won't cross that boundary again. I want to make amends. I truly do. I really like you and I've missed you these last couple of days. But ultimately I want to re-build your trust with time carrying positivity.

I just hope she see's my mistake not as terrible personal failings to be denied or justified, but as inevitable aspects of life that helps us grow and grow up. I get that trust is an important part of every relationship and the damage done to this relationship may be irreparable. However, is it not impossible to mend things once again?

I know that I lied and tried to cover my tracks, which made this inevitably worse. But then I confessed but only when she proved I was telling lies. I lied because I was afraid about what her reaction would be to that message. Which clearly wasn't all that bad, based on what she said.

I didn't post that with the intention she'd see it. In fact it's a bit shit that she saw that as it only makes the situation far worse for me? In fact is that made a chance of recovering this situation being so minute to being near impossible? How was I to know that by posting for the whole world to see, it would be her instantly seeing it. You are aware how the Instagram algorithm works right? That the order is ranked by who interacts with your profile the most via page views, comments, likes, story views, DMs etc?

She doesn't like, comment and I checked the Instagram story archive - she has never viewed my stories before. She ranks 3rd based on her viewing that story. So she's been looking at my profile for a very long time. In fact, date 5 she told me she'd seen my profile via suggestions. That was a hint that I should have been extremely careful?

I wonder if she's also seen my 'Post' about work? In which case it probably doesn't help my case... because she doesn't know the truth about that.

That's a fair comment to make, but the fact is the work situation has made me feel insecure because of the lack of security I have working there right now. I am in a hugely difficult position which I've mentioned in the Instagram post.

Whilst it may come across as putting my shit on her, it's not my intention. My intentions are not to justify my actions at all. I messed up, probably forever. I just thought by being transparent that proof I have no longer anything to hide - if she's seen the Instagram post about work it must be making her think! What is he hiding? At the end of the day the truth comes out in the end, so why not just be upfront and honest?

Something false happened and I've had to wait for it to be investigated. There's a process for these things but unfortunately it's stretched across the period we was dating. I can assure you that if I was working I'd have less time to think about this crap.

My character has been tested here and It's made me feel extremely vulnerable and heartbroken. I want to get back to work asap!

The reason I feel insecure is due to the fact I've been hurt greatly in the past by women who I've gave my all too, unknowingly through lack of experience this has been tested and I've allowed it to happen. I built up a good wall that I let down with this girl and due work situation I've let my insecurities build up. It's a combination of the two unfortunately, except that I probably won't be able to justify lie's with it.

Anyway I've preemptively assumed that "To be honest haven't been talking as I'm not sure what to say to you" means we won't be talking ever again as she is pretty miffed; which means "she is slightly annoyed and pretty hurt." by the fact I wasn't being honest with her over something so little. It didn't give off a good impression which means she has nothing to say to me anymore.

I've deleted her number and messages in acceptance that this is pretty much unrecoverable, and the fact I got no reply to my response is pretty much my answer? As they say sometimes no response is also a response and it's a powerful one.

She's got me wrong though. I am not a liar, and I never lied about how I felt about her and what I wanted in life. I never got to explain that to her. But my actions speak louder than words and that's ultimately something I need to improve on the next situation wherever that may be.

I am a firm believer that talking things through is a positive step in the right direction. It's something I was willing to do here and accept that I am wrong. Have I hurt her far too much now for her to trust me again, or is this situation about as dead in the water as I think it is?

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

.....nothing wrong with our relationship as such but more that as trust was building - less things needed to be done or said. I just took it the wrong way and I am very sorry for how I acted.

Something I'd suggest to you is, how you acted, is not quite so important in this situation, as how you thought and felt.

The whole process of action, thought and emotion, is a big damn circle. We feel something, then think and feel about it, and act on things. But before the actions occur, something has often been built up.

Like you started doing things like asking awkward questions or looking for proof from her that she was really into it. You can be sorry for that, but you're looking at a symptom there.

While it's good to take responsibility for your actions, I'd suggest turning more of your attention towards the way you're thinking, which drives your emotions and whips them up to be more powerful than they'd otherwise be, which in turn, drives you actions.

Google "cognitive behavioral therapy"

It's something I've now got to live with for the rest of my life and rue the missed opportunity. I've accepted that with a very very heavy heart.

Consider how much weight you're putting on this one situation. The way you're thinking about all this, is related to why you made the mistakes you did. If you really don't like what just happened with this girl, then think about some different ways to think about all this.

For example:

There are many people on the planet, and while you can't and won't connect with them all, there are SO many people that you can have awesome connections with.

I used to be just devastated every time I screwed up. But as I've put myself out there, I've found that no one ever replaces the special kind of connection I had with one person, but there's always a different kind of special out there. Someone who's better at hitting some spots, even if they don't hit them in the same way.

2.

It's definitely my priority as I've tried to make amends following on from her message;

You're not listening to me. :P

Her pain from her past is hers, not yours. So while it's great that you observe the following:

// Something is going on her life. I am a hugely good judge of character and when I look at her, I do see pain or hurt. It hurts me what her ex's did to her but then you've alluded to the fact she opens herself up to this sort of baggage.

This is NOT for you to define or carry.

You also cannot draw some of the conclusions you are drawing, like the inference that she is choosing to open herself up to baggage.

Overall, the main thing is that you're getting so wrapped up in figuring HER out, and that energy would be better spent on yourself. Figuring your own thoughts out.

"To be honest haven't been talking as I'm not sure what to say to you, pretty miffed by you not not being honest with me over something so little, doesn't give off a great impression."

So you give her space.

The fact that she's still communicating, is a good sign. LET IT BREATHE for god's sake.

....but I want you to know that I wish I could take it back, and I promise I won't cross that boundary again. I want to make amends. I truly do.

Again, the way you're talking about this to her comes off way too salesman like.

Promising to stop doing this cold turkey, is unrealistic and won't be believed, which loses you ground.
Far better would be to acknowledge that you're talking about some real fucking change here and that takes work and making further mistakes before you're able to "fix" yourself. That's if you actually stop focusing on HER so much and HER problems and actually turn that focus onto yourself and your issues.
Your word choice of "wish I could take it back," "making amends," "crossing boundaries," "truly," etc., it all comes off like you're throwing desperate Hail Mary after Hail Mary. Which makes the total messaging seem less believable.

Just take a breath, man. She was talking about it being a bad impression and you make it out as if it was this HUGE transgression that harmed her soul deeply.

But it didn't. And the assumption that you seem to think it would have, is going to make her uncomfortable if you don't cut it out. Or it will come off as if you think she's fragile, which she is not.

This is simple. It was a small thing. It's a bad habit that you don't like. You're trying to change it. It's not easy, but you're doing your best, and you're doing it for your own damn self, not for her.

If you can't say that and actually mean it, then you should stop trying for this girl. And don't tell me you do. This is a talk to have with yourself, honestly. :)

I just hope she see's my mistake not as terrible personal failings to be denied or justified, but as inevitable aspects of life that helps us grow and grow up.....

But the mistake is because of a personal failing. Just not a terrible one. It's a human one, born of your desire to avoid pain or loss.

The trick is, to grow here, you have to find another way to meet the need that was being met by you lying. And the need that was being met by you sending that deleted message in the first place. If you addressed insecurity in yourself, that would fix a lot.

I didn't post that with the intention she'd see it

But come ON. That's what social media is. Anything you put out there, you should consider something that ANYONE or EVERYONE can or will see. That has to be the assumption or you're living in a dream world.

Hell, it only takes someone else posting about you on theirs, for you to be exposed.

These days, it's just better to be assuming that anyone could see what you're doing, when you're out in public and someone is snapping pics on their phones.

In fact is that made a chance of recovering this situation being so minute to being near impossible?

She probably sees you as untrustworthy AND out there seeking attention and affection from other girls. Whereas she seems more settled down, even if she is guarded. (At least based on what I know of her.

You don't need to be dramatic about the "near impossible" thing. The chance level is unknowable to all but her. But it doesn't help.

How was I to know that by posting for the whole world to see, it would be her instantly seeing it.

The issue here is not that she saw it. You ought to have a talk with yourself about why you are on this roller coaster. You're insecure about a girl and adopt behaviors that drive her away, and then you go out and seek validation and approval from other girls.

This is a typical male pattern. I went through it also. I am still on guard for feeling a need to get that hit of validation from a girl when I feel low.

In fact, date 5 she told me she'd seen my profile via suggestions. That was a hint that I should have been extremely careful?

This is a hint that you need to ask yourself why you have been doing the things you've been doing.

Not that you should have been careful about someone finding out.

The reason I feel insecure is due to the fact I've been hurt greatly in the past by women who I've gave my all too, unknowingly through lack of experience this has been tested and I've allowed it to happen.

Usually the problems with giving your all to someone and having it blow up in your face, are:

You've prematurely given your all to someone you don't really know,
You've given more than is healthy and asked for more than is healthy, in return,
Or you've forced things at a speed or level of extremeness that's not healthy.

Often the incorrect lessons we learn from this sort of situation involve us thinking that we just didn't have the right person, when it was more that we weren't right. I know; I've been there.

Anyway I've preemptively assumed that "To be honest haven't been talking as I'm not sure what to say to you" means we won't be talking ever again as she is pretty miffed; which means "she is slightly annoyed and pretty hurt." by the fact I wasn't being honest with her over something so little. It didn't give off a good impression which means she has nothing to say to me anymore.

Listen to yourself, man.

You are literally adding extra meaning. That's the thing here. You assume too much, and read too much into what has been said, sometimes. And you're kind of fucking yourself in the process. There's a negative voice in your head that adds this extra meaning, and it's on YOU to have debates with it.

You're making all this interpretation on what she's said, but utterly missed the point that she's still communicating with you while you basically (internally) run around like a chicken with your head cut off, convinced that this is the time the sky is really falling.

Just chill. Stop apologizing and start living the damn apology by working to change.

This girl is direct. IF she never wanted to talk to you again, she would literally say that. She's not annoyed and pretty hurt. Stop making up this whole narrative in your head. This is part of the problem. You keep making up her side of the story. Let her tell you her side of it. More importantly, let her SHOW you.

I've deleted her number and messages in acceptance that this is pretty much unrecoverable, and the fact I got no reply to my response is pretty much my answer?

You're doing it again. Taking things to extreme.

Have I hurt her far too much now for her to trust me again, or is this situation about as dead in the water as I think it is?

You deleted her number and messages. Dude. What are you doing here?

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It has literally took me 2 hours to realise what you've just typed out is the fundamental's to making a positive change and that change is actually good for me. Once again thanks for taking the time to reply and breed positivity.

I feel like I need to go back a bit further. We have to go back to early-mid March, travelling the world for the last year and half; positivity was really key in my life. I was going through tough times with women and coming out of them pretty quickly and strongly; and I faced 2 difficult situations at work – one where I got terribly drunk and the other were I was very lazy. I came through these and was doing so well.

I posted on Instagram the following. "The biggest adventure you can take is to live the life of your dreams." - That’s how I felt at that moment. A month has passed since this work situation had started. I posted that I felt like "Life begins at the end of your comfort zone." I was still remaining very upbeat.

This whole situation is my dream, and it’s being damaged because I can’t live my dream until this whole thing is resolved. Then I met this girl.

The company I work for will be providing me with CBT. I attended a meeting with one of our Occupational Health Advisers.

It’s a lot more than you think. I’ve never had a proper girlfriend; I’ve never dated past 2 dates. In fact I’ve never dated many past one date. This connection was huge. It was so huge that it made feel very insecure and I felt like pinching myself continuously because I’ve never had this before. Something I don’t think this girl knows, but then maybe she does and hence why it’s pushed her away.

The improvements I’ve been making to my life the last year or so have been substantial. In fact before this whole work situation I grew by a huge margin in just 3 months. So much that an old friend got back in contact and the first thing he said was that I’ve matured a hell of a lot.

This blip in my life on the grand scheme of things is hard to take, because it’s my life and my dreams that are being ruined here. This girl knows how much I love what I do. Evident by the fact she’s been doing some digging on my YouTube and Instagram.

I want KIDS, I want marriage with someone – she wanted that and I put so much pressure on that. So it was maybe time I took a step back and looked myself in a mirror and decided what I really wanted before committing that to her. It begs the question, am I ready for that?

So you give her space.

The fact that she's still communicating, is a good sign. LET IT BREATHE for god's sake.

Does that mean never contacting her again? I don't know what's right and I don't know what's wrong in this situation. Other than what I've done is wrong and I am in the wrong. I've literally accepted that this is all on me rather than her. I think that's where going forward is key, that if I am positive about this then maybe just maybe the 0.0001% chance that she comes back my way it's time to sit down and explain why I acted the way I did; but only if she asks?

What I did has zero justification. A lie is a lie. But what led to this thought process we've gone through is because the root problem is how I feel about the work situation. I've had security for 4 years and nothing has got in my way, or challenged my position and dreams. Literally the path I wanted to take and how positive I was exactly 3 months ago is not how I feel right now.

If you knew me for who I am, you'd realise that I am an incredibly positive and strong person. But this 'situation' at work has really tested my character and it's gave people the very wrong impression of me. What I did with this girl was bottle it all up, come across as insecure when I never meant too. It really was bad timing but she wasn't to know because as you said previously "Dumping my shit" on her was the wrong thing to do. I agree wholeheartedly.

Just chill. Stop apologizing and start living the damn apology by working to change.

Let her tell you her side of it. More importantly, let her SHOW you.

I think I've asked this in point 4. How do I let her tell her side of it? I see your point but adjective for miffed is; annoyed or upset. She said she was "pretty miffed" and that she doesn't have the words to talk to me.

I've accepted that the buck stops with me and that I need to change by breeding positivity in my life, and that once this work situations sorted I'll come out of it a more mentally stronger and focused person. I want her to be there when that happens because I'll be able to show her my all rather than give her my all. That's the key difference.

I'll go back;

There's a negative voice in your head that adds this extra meaning, and it's on YOU to have debates with it.

It's this work situation. It's breeding so many negative thoughts and my life is on hold till it's resolved. Only when it's resolved can I live my life. That's why I felt the need to say all the shit I did to her, why I felt the need to lie and why I felt the need to send that stupid needy needless message in the first place.

If this work situation hadn't been around. I'd be much more positive on my outlook and with this girl.

You're doing it again. Taking things to extreme.

It now begs the question. I am going to start being positive rather than negative. How do I win this girl back, how do I convey to her that I am willing to change and be a better person for my future and for those who I encounter. I can't show her until I tell her because she doesn't have any physical connection with me as she's on holiday.

You deleted her number and messages. Dude. What are you doing here?

I just assumed based on my negative thoughts and feelings that she's done. That her message and her no answer to my last message was my answer. But I am going to remain positive here. Weather or not she decides to come back in my life. I mean do you think she will or could, if so how do I go about it? Other than be positive from now on.

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It has literally took me 2 hours to realise what you've just typed out is the fundamental's to making a positive change....

:) Bookmark it. We've written a lot. :P

This whole situation is my dream, and it’s being damaged because I can’t live my dream until this whole thing is resolved. Then I met this girl.

I'd further submit to you, that a lot of these issues are the result of mindsets that were constructed before you ran into these situations.

Like as kids, we grow up thinking and believing certain things and holding certain expectations. These things lead to a lot of our own reaction to events.

Example: We grow up seeing whatever relationship our parents had, and kind of absorb that as "normal." and we grow up expecting our own relationships to be like that.

The company I work for will be providing me with CBT. I attended a meeting with one of our Occupational Health Advisers.

Excellent. Your own thoughts actually change your brain chemistry so finding ways to shift your thinking through mantras, sheer will, and changes to behavior, is kind of like hacking your own brain. In a good way.

I accidentally did CBT on myself when I was suffering from depression and panic attacks. Very helpful.

It’s a lot more than you think. I’ve never had a proper girlfriend; I’ve never dated past 2 dates. In fact I’ve never dated many past one date. This connection was huge. It was so huge that it made feel very insecure and I felt like pinching myself continuously because I’ve never had this before.

Yep. This is a common thing, I think. I felt much like this for awhile. Felt like I kept meeting monumentally AWESOME people and connecting so strongly.

Then I realized it kept happening. :)

Perhaps you feel like it's scarce. But it's not.

Something I don’t think this girl knows, but then maybe she does and hence why it’s pushed her away.

I find this observation interesting because the initial focus of your post was about her pushing you away.

But you seem to think you might have been doing it too? Is it possible that you were the primary "pusher"? If we assume that her pushes were in response to your insecurity?

The improvements I’ve been making to my life the last year or so have been substantial. In fact before this whole work situation I grew by a huge margin in just 3 months. So much that an old friend got back in contact and the first thing he said was that I’ve matured a hell of a lot.

Never lose sight of this. There may very well be things you've done that you cringe to think about, and you wish you could apologize to people and fix those things.

Funny thing about that: getting stuck on apologies, after a point, can turn into being stuck on the past, instead of actually moving forward.

This blip in my life on the grand scheme of things is hard to take, because it’s my life and my dreams that are being ruined here. This girl knows how much I love what I do. Evident by the fact she’s been doing some digging on my YouTube and Instagram.

Your life and dreams are not being ruined. This is just the story you're choosing to tell yourself.

What you're finding is that something about the way you've been living your life, is not working. And the bad things happening are a trial and error process that shows you what you can shift to get to a better place.

These bad things lead to you clearing out the imposter good times and help you usher in increasingly better times.

Does that mean never contacting her again? I don't know what's right and I don't know what's wrong in this situation.

WHY are you phrasing this choice in the form of completely ridiculous extremes? Like you keep going from BALLS TO THE WALL TEXTING ALL THE TIME AND SPILLING EVERYTHING OUT WRITING LOOOOONG BOOKS BY TEXT.....

To, Ghost her and disappear.

There's a nice middle ground here that you're not even bothering to try. Like I said let it BREATHE. Like REST.

I think the issue is perhaps that you lack a good social circle. Because you seem to rely on people you date for A LOT. And then it's like suddenly they're the primary person you are messaging so when they don't answer, it's a huge blow. And you're going from that to complete non-contact.

It's unreasonable.

....maybe just maybe the 0.0001% chance that she comes back my way it's time to sit down and explain why I acted the way I did; but only if she asks?

Again, I ask you to LISTEN to yourself here. Look at how you're framing this. Everything is monumental beyond what it probably is in real life.

If she comes back your way? She didn't leave. YOU did. You're the one who deleted her stuff. You're the one going non-contact.
You framed the recent deleted message as high drama. Like you gravely injured her heart. But you guys were in the early stages of dating. So this idea was wildly premature.

Normally in the early phases of dating, people feel each other out and find out what they're like, as investment builds. The issue here with you and this girl seems to be that she started feeling things out and you jumped WAY ahead of her and started living in a relationship that didn't exist in real life, but only in your head.

Ironically, this meant that you were no longer dating her really. You've been dating a distortion that started turning into a bit of a nightmare. And the whole time, she's been trying to get you to turn your attention back to her.

Even now, you're continuing to do it, jumping ahead to the conclusion that it's just over and deleting her number and all that, speaking as if it's just a foregone conclusion that it's over.

Meanwhile, she's likely wondering why you stopped messaging.

I think I've asked this in point 4. How do I let her tell her side of it?

Give her space. Avoid any temptation to start opening text messaging with some grave seriousness about needing to talk to her about stuff.

Most of the stuff you keep thinking you need to talk to her about, is stuff YOU need to deal with about yourself. And the thing is, it's awkward when you keep dragging her into the mix to deal with your own anxieties or misrepresentations of who she is.

I see your point but adjective for miffed is; annoyed or upset. She said she was "pretty miffed" and that she doesn't have the words to talk to me.

You're joking, right? Again, listen to yourself. Look at what you just did here.

Miffed has to be one of the weakest fucking words possible to talk about "anger."

Miffed is like when a little kid is "upset" about not being first in line back into class after recess. That "anger" is gone in 6 minutes.

Didn't have the words? She was saying she didn't have anything to say or didn't think something was worth discussing because it wasn't important.

It all added up to the issue being you keep prodding her to talk about shit that just needs to be processed and handled, probably mostly by yourselves and then you guys check back in with each other in a couple days.

And sometimes people just don't have something to say. I have good friends that I go for weeks or months without talking to. It doesn't mean we don't have good conversations or that we don't care about each other. It's just that the everyday business of life doesn't always require a conversation over text.

And some problems don't need to be hashed out in painstaking detail every time.

Something worth examining is why you're not fact-checking ridiculously exaggerated thoughts like the ones running through your head, identifying what she said to mean, "I never want to talk to you again."

I mean seriously dude. You infer that you were looking up the meaning of "miffed." But if you actually look in the dictionary, it says:

Definition of miff = 1 : a fit of ill humor. / 2 : a trivial quarrel

Note the 2nd definition. Trivial!! Of little consequence. She literally told you she was angry in a way that probably died out the same day. And you're running around deleting phone numbers and your ENTIRE thread of her messages.

It's this work situation. It's breeding so many negative thoughts and my life is on hold till it's resolved. Only when it's resolved can I live my life.

I submit to you that it's not the work situation. Fuck this work situation. It's the way you're thinking of it that is doing the most damage. Work is not life. But you're allowing this one aspect of life to BE your entire life.

Negative thoughts can only "breed" if you let them. Really.

While some aspects of this situation are out of your control, your reaction to those things is completely under your control.

That's why I felt the need to say all the shit I did to her, why I felt the need to lie and why I felt the need to send that stupid needy needless message in the first place.

Maybe it wasn't needless and you should stop beating yourself up over this and look at WHY you sent this message.

You sent that message because there's a need in you that you're not meeting. And you've been trying to meet that need in a really unhealthy way, basically by relying on this new person you were dating, to fill the role that someone like a counselor or a whole circle of friends, would fill.

Honestly, it really sounds like a more solid group of friends or some counseling, would go a long way to helping you to stop the needy stuff. Or cut way back.

We all have needs. We all have insecurities. The trick is that you don't beat yourself up over them. You find healthy ways to fill those needs without being a vampire to those around you. I went through much the same thing.

How do I win this girl back, how do I convey to her that I am willing to change and be a better person for my future and for those who I encounter. I can't show her until I tell her because she doesn't have any physical connection with me as she's on holiday.

Drop any expectation of "winning her back."

For one thing, "winning her back" assumes you had her. But you guys were in the introductory phases. This is neither good nor bad, my point is that you keep building these things up to SUCH MONUMENTALLY RIDICULOUSLY unrealistic heights that you're harming yourself with the loss of things that aren't real.

And it keeps you from having real things. Like this WHOLE business with the girl in this post, was basically down to you jumping straight into a fantasy and ignoring the girl you were dating, by imagining a relationship that hadn't formed yet.

Ironically, she still seems open to exploring more with you if you just chill a bit.

You don't need to convey shit. You don't need to prove shit. You're doing it for you, RIIIIGHT? So the only one who fucking needs to know, is you.

And she's on holiday, right? SO ask her how it's going. Ask for a pic or something.

And find something else to do besides sitting around waiting for her reply. If you're finding yourself doing that, especially while she's on holiday, then put your phone in Airplane Mode.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've got a message from her. She has pretty much ended it and gave me closure in where she felt this went wrong; but honestly my intentions weren't to pressure her into a relationship. You really had her sussed out all along. It's just a shame I didn't listen from the outset and it's something I guess I shouldn't live with but learn from and be overly cautious going forward. She needs to fix herself and I need to fix myself.

Here's her message:

"Yeah nice to be with the family. Guessing from the missed calls you wanted to talk but think it’s probably best we don’t. Honestly xx I think for me it’s probably best to call an end to us seeing each other. The last few times we have been out you’ve made me feel quite uncomfortable and trying to push things forward even straight after I’ve asked you not to, and with the not telling the truth on top I think it just makes me not want to open up to you even more. Which is obviously what you are searching for and it not a great starting point for a relationship."

I replied with my all but was probably in vain, at least I tried! I guess you'll tell me it's a zero chance of recovering from this?

[–]recyclablebanthas2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

She has pretty much ended it and gave me closure in where she felt this went wrong; but honestly my intentions weren't to pressure her into a relationship. You really had her sussed out all along.

Yeah, the more I read, the more it seemed that you were the one really pushing harder for the serious relationship fast thing. Even though in the beginning, you seemed to be representing it as if she were the one doing this.

She needs to fix herself and I need to fix myself.

Honestly, based on what you've supplied about all this, I think there's been an overabundance of focus by you on what she needs to fix, when your actions have been driving the train off the tracks, while she kept calling for time-outs and slow-downs and you kept interpreting it as complete stops or full speed ahead.

// "Yeah nice to be with the family. Guessing from the missed calls you wanted to talk but think it’s probably best we don’t.

Ouch. Yeah, if you tried to call, especially after the deleted message, that was a huge mistake and likely hastened the end here, big time.

The ironic thing is that you likely KNEW this but were driven to drive off the cliff anyway.

// Honestly xx I think for me it’s probably best to call an end to us seeing each other. The last few times we have been out you’ve made me feel quite uncomfortable and trying to push things forward even straight after I’ve asked you not to

And this makes it pretty clear that one issue is you projecting what you want to see, over what is actually happening.

I recall reading things you wrote that made it seem as if she were the one pushing things fast, and you also said that things were nothing at all but awesome in person, but she is clearly saying that this is not the case at all.

The bad news is that you weren't enjoying the interaction or her, for what they were. The good news is that this sort of self-deception is an issue that's completely under your control to fix. So that with the next girl, you won't self-sabotage. (And make no mistake, you're done with this one.)

....and with the not telling the truth on top I think it just makes me not want to open up to you even more. Which is obviously what you are searching for and it not a great starting point for a relationship."

Honestly, it did sound like things were going alright until you stopped paying attention to her and kept pushing and plow through when she didn't want that.

The good news is that the pain from this failure, is like psychological conditioning. You HAVE to keep in mind what the price of giving in to your insecurity is. When you're in this sort of situation again and you feel the need to KEEP texting and calling and pushing too hard in person, you HAVE to remind yourself to rein yourself in and find a way to soothe your own insecurity without getting vampiric on someone.

I replied with my all but was probably in vain....

Like I said, the way you were handling your apologies, you were shooting yourself in the foot and really invalidating the apologies into worthlessness. You were also demonstrating that you were building up way too much investment and attachment, way too soon. Which means you weren't in tune with her and were kind of having a relationship by yourself, with a fantasy, not the real person.

I guess you'll tell me it's a zero chance of recovering from this?

I don't need to tell you.

//....it’s probably best to call an end to us seeing each other.

She told you. Very clearly.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I know there's an emphasis on me with this. But I think it's unfair to blame when I was giving 90% she was giving 10%. She clearly wasn't ready for a relationship. In fact she isn't ready for one at all and you've alluded to that previously.

You said it loud and clear before. This is where I first went wrong.

In all your examples, you're fussing over texting. Misunderstandings over text, texting a lot and trying to hold conversations over text, etc.

I don't see anything here about what the in person interactions are like. That is where your focus should be.This comes off like you're spending way too much energy on something (texting) that's merely a tool for you to get to the real event. It's not the real event, itself.

It honestly sounds like you need to just put your phone in Airplane Mode for most of the day. Check your inbox maybe three times a day or something. Focus on other things than your phone's notifications for most of the day.

It hasn't worked out with previous guys because they don't want to commit to her, so she ends it.

You then said;

Wow. Okay. Yeah, she did get burned hard and she basically told you exactly how.

And she's in a position where she's fucking herself over; she wants kids and marriage soon but imposes odd restrictions for how a relationship can start and grow. She's choking it out with mistrust.

She is having issues opening up, which makes her seem like someone who can't be trusted, which is ironic because she's doing it to avoid this sort of thing from the one's she's dating, but all it has probably done is make trustworthy guys want to bail, leaving the ones who will ironically be the guys who'll fuck her over.

I agree with you on a lot of things, and this is one thing that really has nailed this in the coffin. I'm sure you've read this before? With other girls you've seen or dated?An Open Letter To The Girl Who Let The Nice Guy Go - Google it.That was pretty much me the whole way through. So it's not all on me, but it's on me.

(And make no mistake, you're done with this one.)

I was done for after date 4. This is where it really went wrong - because then I started questioning things.

So if she were on the level, this should have been the end of it. She wants long-term and she just said you guys wouldn't work long-term.

Which means that:

She either said something she didn't believe was true (which is lying and being manipulative),

Or her emotions are so unpredictably all over the place that she changes her mind all the time and she's not stable enough to handle a relationship.

You said it man, you nailed it all this time ago. "She changes her mind all the time and she's not stable enough to handle a relationship."

No. She's apprehensive because right now she's consumed by fear. You can't take the blame for that just because she's pushing the blame onto you.

And she shouldn't expect to be having the kids talk so damn early. Like before you've even established stability and attraction for a serious relationships, she's trying to hash out having kids with you? It's like she's trying to freak a guy out and hopes one will be that great white knight from the movies who saw the real her and stuck around.

It's Hollywood bullshit.

Damn it, why didn't I read more into this? Could have saved my skin before this.

She's gaslighting you, man. You didn't need to apologize. You were silent because you needed a breather after all the fear-driven shit she's been doing to herself and to you.

This is why I became consumed by fear and insecurities. It was all on her, then the tables turned date 5 and date 6.

5. Date 5

Before this, she's been on OkCupid everyday - multiple times per day. Why? Why would you just tell a dude you wanted this and then go straight back on it. Date 4 was perfect despite the post date 3 setback.

I think you misunderstand her. Her focus seems to be mostly or all on you. The appearance she gives of being unattainable is bait to get you to invest.

Booooom! You hit the nail inconceivably on the head here. I invested.

And as I mentioned, she doesn't even really see you for who you are anyway, so you could be doing everything right and she wouldn't see it.

Dude at what point did you think I should have listened?

You see the issues and know you should probably peace out. But you keep looking for excuses to see a chance for something that she herself has already said isn't in the cards.

I should have listened. And I still didn't listen...

Plus, you asking actually makes her more likely to NOT want to see you again.

Anyway now we are here. Let's be positive. I'll never likely see her again.

1 in 8.136 million chance of bumping into each-other again. But she lives 10 minutes from me and goes to work down my street. So 1 in 244,866 chances of bumping into her. Anyway that's some pretty good odds because before you start getting more complicated. This has fried my brain man. I let my emotions get the better of me and really did invest in her. That's the problem. I invested.

Like I said, the way you were handling your apologies, you were shooting yourself in the foot and really invalidating the apologies into worthlessness.

The message I sent was nothing to do with apologising this time. It was more of a your a great person and I wish you the best but I am open to starting again once I've sorted myself out.I think this really came down to two people in different phases of there life. Myself not ready for a relationship and herself not ready for a relationship. Me with my career shit and her with her fears and rush to get the job done.

I am the one they all come running back too. Many of them who funny enough didn't get date 1 but I am not optimistic really. She is heavily reliant on finding someone through online dating. Reckon she'll find it? I was ready for her man, ready to take her shit and ready to be her husband - I liked her enough to see through all the misery. But firstly I needed to sort myself out.

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Firstly, you need to go back through my previous replies. Like ALL of them. I had to strike-through a lot of them because increasing information about the overall situation, rendered a LOT of it incorrect.

I had initially pegged her as having huge trust issues. This was wildly wildly incorrect. It comes off more like she simply identified herself as someone who was not simply looking for a fling and then you came on way too strong, she asked for you to dial it back a bit, you responded by

Freezing her out completely
Or still coming on too strong in person
Cyberstalking her online; checking her activity on dating apps, etc.
Demanding much from her over text, like asking where she was and who she was with.
You imagining her off banging other guys, when this wasn't nearly your place at all to even be concerned with, after maybe 5 dates or less. It indicates too much emotional investment, too early.
Asking her what she likes about you, among other awkward questions.
Pulling that really awkward Hail Mary attempt where you confessed that you wanted to be there for her, after she had recently told you she needed lower intensity.

All of which shows a failure on your part to listen to her and make adjustments, all of which, only after a handful of dates.

She clearly wasn't ready for a relationship.

She actually seems perfectly ready for one. It's just that you were coming on way too strong and anyone is going to recoil from that.

Instead of adjusting your intensity and overall emotional investment, you have chosen to blame her, identifying her as if she had something wrong with her, rather than considering that how you went into this whole thing, scared her off.

I'm sure you've read this before? With other girls you've seen or dated?An Open Letter To The Girl Who Let The Nice Guy Go .....

Sure, we could say that girls that pursue dysfunctional interactions with abusive guys, have issues.

But Nice Guys have issues, too. A Nice Guy is a basically a guy who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him. That's not actually "nice." It's manipulative. And lacking in self-respect. The "Nice Guy" bemoans his lot, wondering why the girl doesn't recognize his value, while his willingness to sell himself out to get people to like him, turns girls away.

And why do girls like "assholes" better than "Nice Guys?" To quote Mark Manson again, "generally assholes and scumbags are not subverting their own will to make other people like them. Despite being assholes, they have strong boundaries and stand up for themselves."

So the problem with that Open Letter is that the mindset behind it is UTTERLY wrong and falsely sanctimonious. Nice guys fuck themselves. It's not on the girls in this particular case.

You said it man, you nailed it all this time ago. "She changes her mind all the time and she's not stable enough to handle a relationship."

// No. She's apprehensive because right now she's consumed by fear. You can't take the blame for that just because she's pushing the blame onto you.....

Damn it, why didn't I read more into this? Could have saved my skin before this.

// She's gaslighting you, man. You didn't need to apologize.

// I think you misunderstand her. Her focus seems to be mostly or all on you. The appearance she gives of being unattainable is bait to get you to invest.

// But you keep looking for excuses to see a chance for something that she herself has already said isn't in the cards.

All of this is based on things I said that were inaccurate due to incomplete knowledge of what was going on.

She wasn't gaslighting you.
She wasn't manipulating you to get you to invest. Your mindset going in led to you investing too much, too early. Not her.
She wasn't unstable; she was responding to you pushing too much and emotionally over-investing into her before you guys knew each other.
She said it wasn't in the cards, because you were really needy upfront, early on.

This has fried my brain man. I let my emotions get the better of me and really did invest in her. That's the problem. I invested.

NO. This is the problem. It's all or nothing in your mind sometimes. She wants you to chill a bit? So you respond by cutting her out entirely and ignoring her. She mentions that she isn't after just a fling? So you invest overly.

Middle ground. You have to find a way to live there.

The issue is not that you invested. It's that your emotions DID get the better of you. It sounds like you got really invested in some idea of what dating her would be like. Created a bit of a fantasy. And then promptly stopped connecting with her as a person.

I was ready for her man, ready to take her shit and ready to be her husband - I liked her enough to see through all the misery. But firstly I needed to sort myself out.

This is what I'm talking about. And make no mistake, I used to have much the same issues you're describing here: but you are/were getting WAY too far ahead of yourself here, being ready to be her husband after a few dates?

I mean, it's good to know what you want, but you DIDN'T know her well enough at all to be saying a sliver of the things you were saying. You ought to consider the extremity of your emotional response to this person you barely knew.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I've got a lot to reply here too and I am just trawling through everything to give you the best possible information considering you seem to think that a lot of it is incorrect. When in fact a huge majority of it is correct.

Firstly, you need to go back through my previous replies. Like ALL of them. I had to strike-through a lot of them because increasing information about the overall situation, rendered a LOT of it incorrect.

I genuinely think some of the stuff you said is not irrelevant. When in fact it really is, because what I did between dates 1 and 3 was good.

Evidence from what she said here.

Sorry that it has taken me long to reply. I know lots people give kop out excuses hence why I thought it best to tell you exactly why rather than leaving you wondering as that sucks. Maybe I did misunderstand but I just took it at face value that it was when you thought would be best, maybe I should have asked before sending the message but from experience people just tell me what they think I want to hear when directly asked, rather than whatever the truth is so I pay attention to peoples views when mentioned in passing. It’s probably is best that you didn’t tell me that you wanted to be exclusive. Though I’m not the type to go on dating multiple people, it does take me a while to get to the point where I’m ready to officially agree to that, weird I know but think I told you that on the first date. And yeah I do get the impression that you are a good guy hence going on a second and third date, but I just don’t want to make the same mistake of staying with someone who won’t be ready for or want the same things as me

(Unfortunately I don't have any of the previous conversation as to how she ended it, and how I responded to it - but it was nothing to do with me coming on strong; but more something I said in passing by on Date 3.)

I responded well again about how good our dates were and this is what she said in response.

I had a good time too and I’m glad you felt you could be yourself. Your right trust does take time to build hence find it hard to just take what you say as truth and I’m apprehensive about meeting again but I would like to.

She goes for very career focused guys and that's probably because she's an attractive nurse and doesn't date people who she works with. We had this conversation on Date 6 about online dating and how we both use it for similar reasons. It's extremely difficult to find and meet someone.

Anyway I can't post it all here but her conversation opened up massively. She was giving me hints of something else, or maybe I read too much into it? Twice that week before our 4th date she randomly told me.

Just about to go past your house!

Which I wasn't at home, and was with another girl at this point, who was giving me some advice on what to do going forward and if it's worth sticking around.

That sunset looked good but this feels good!!!

This was accompanied with a thigh/leg picture in the bath.

Date 4 -

This was very nice, and I left the kissing to the end as it felt right at that moment. We both said how nice it was to see each-other again. If only I could re-wind back to this moment...

Text convo -

22/05/2018, 00:38 - Her: Home, about to deal with the mess that is my foot!

22/05/2018, 00:54 - Me': I Just walked in too. Hope it's not too bad though?

22/05/2018, 00:55 - Me': Thank you for the very lovely evening, and thanks again for dinner x

22/05/2018, 00:55 - Me': Eurgh my room is so humid :((

22/05/2018, 01:11 - Her: It started to bleed again at some point tonight but thankfully just got on my sock and not the trainer. Thank you too, hope you sleep better tonight

This was all tolerable and everything was fine, so I don't agree that I was needy upfront, early on. What I do agree with was;

Cyberstalking her online; checking her activity on dating apps, etc.

I checked after date 4 because I just didn't trust her, something in my gut was telling me this isn't right and this isn't normal. I did check briefly out of instinct before Date 4 and she wasn't using it - and this was the first time she'd gone online since we started dating. I was worried because I did not want to get hurt or loose someone I have grown to like and has put an emotional bombshell on me about kids and marriage.

Her declarations that you wouldn't work out long term, were a reaction to you coming on to her too strong in the early going.

So what was the reason for her declarations? Because at this point I'd been very chilled and laid-back, which is why I got so many dates. Do you think if I was needy upfront that I'd have lasted this long.

Where I ruined it was Date 5-6 for sure and post Date 6. But I'll get to this shortly.

She continuously used the online dating app between Date 4, Date 5 and Date 6 which when you think about it made me feel very insecure. Do you think that the work situation of which I wasn't being completely open and honest about was making her shift in fear? I was being very secretive about what I was doing and when. This was just simply because I didn't want her knowing what was going on. You've said it yourself that I didn't need to tell her because that's dumping my shit on her.

The whole reason I didn't tell her was because I didn't want the work situation to resolve itself and her to get the wrong impression of me, thus ending our 'ship'. Like I can assure you these false allegations against me wouldn't give someone like her the confidence in me. I know her well enough for that.

Anyway I got the sense throughout the week that she was being very blunt with me, which caused me to do the whole

Pulling that really awkward Hail Mary attempt where you confessed that you wanted to be there for her, after she had recently told you she needed lower intensity.

Her reaction was very awkward. She felt like I was pushing her for something she wasn't ready for; then I distanced myself from her which really wasn't called for (That was female friends advice).

At this point it was clearly recoverable.

She said in response to me getting back in contact.

I honestly didn’t know what to make of the silence, kind of just felt like you weren’t happy with how I reacted on Friday. Which just felt like you were pushing for something which I obviously wasn’t ready for. I know you said it wasn’t what you meant but just saying how it came across to me. But it didn’t mean I needed you to just completely just stop talking to me, just take things at an easier pace, to see how things go rather than what felt like pushing.

I explained myself in a round about way.

My whole rationale for what I said on Friday was because I was over thinking and over analysing the situation, and I've done it again with your last text(s). The way I made you feel was deeply regrettable and I can honestly put my hands up and say I'm sorry, it wasn't my intentions to pressure you. I think I've learnt a very valuable lesson here and that's not to over think.

I apologised if I hurt her feelings. Obviously as I didn't know what I said.

You haven’t hurt my feelings, you just put me in what, for me was a really awkward position and then confused me by then not even talking to me after what you said.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

She's questioning why I am not back at work as I believed the process would be over now.

So your back at work now?

I was very shady in my response, because at this point I am not sleeping right and I am feeling the stress of all these meetings and waiting the outcome of the investigation and weather it'll go further or not. So when you say it's my behaviour; I agree there's an element of that but greatly an element of me having great stress an anxiety. This is literally a deep and dark moment for me.My job involves being away from the world and my phone for a good 8-16 hours at at time. I can honestly say that we probably wouldn't have had as many dates; but we would have had a substantially less faltering situation of me acting shady, in fear of loosing her and being very cyber-stalkerish. I can't help but think how different this situation may have been if it wasn't for the work situation being so dire? Obviously you aren't to know but it's very bad and when your in a situation where your character has been defamed you'll understand the position I am currently in. At least now I can focus all my priority on that

I think if I hadn't of lied I would have got date 7. I can't change it now, and that's what hurts the most is the feeling of completely fucking something up. Although she's using everything I've done against me - when she doesn't know what the situation I am currently facing is.She does now. I told her in response to her 'final' message to me. I explained what I am going through and that it's important I sort this out for myself. I apologised for the way I acted with her the last few dates and thus the wrong impression she got of me.I reassured her that my feelings for her and what I said to her was never lies. I told her she deserves someone who who will treat her right and give her the dreams she wants. That I hope I gave her a lot of confidence that someone will be willing to give them there all.This person is obviously undoubtedly decided to be not me.

She actually did this a lot more than me, everyday actually she was curiously checking. I was very very shady with the work situation and I had to protect myself. This was Date 3-6 where I was really feeling pressured and not thinking straight.

And hounding her about where she is, when she's not with you, is not a good thing to add to you apparently coming on too strong to her in person.

What happens when you don't sleep properly?

EDIT: It comes off more and more now as if the reason she was pulling back and not wanting to discuss some of these things, is because you were coming on too strongly and assuming entirely too much emotional investment on your part and hers.

There's an equal amount of blame to proportion here. Date 1-3 went extremely well. I've got a valid question here for you. Why did you she lay her cards on the table after 3 dates of me sitting back and enjoying the moment. (This was the first 6 weeks of the work situation so was feeling less stressed) and tell me that we wouldn't work long-term because of a comment I said in passing by and that I am extremely career focused? I can't find the backup, but I did ask her why she didn't mention to me in person but it was something she said she thought of. I mean you don't just think this up magically to only lay it on the table?I don't think we can second guess what she was thinking but I'd lay a wager on it that she really liked me and wanted to know if I was going to do what previous dates/guys had did.My friend just told me the following. She's 40 by the way so very well versed.

She liked you, she laid her cards on the table which normally pushes men away.

Evidence here: All the men she's dated have ran a square mile, or she's got rid of them.

I didn't and that's scared her and she's equally pushed you away.

I get that what I've done was pushing her for a relationship. But I wanted security, because I don't have that right now and I latched onto her unfairly.

Middle ground. You have to find a way to live there.

The issue is not that you invested. It's that your emotions DID get the better of you.

I am not sleeping, I haven't been thinking straight since Date 4. I've let my emotions outside of this dating bubble get the extreme better of me and my running thoughts from the stress and anxiety have completely blown this potential relationship apart. She also told me just now on the phone.

I should have explained the work situation, put a breather on it just to ensure that we could date again after this work situation resolved itself. Because in all honesty the person she saw early on is the person she liked. It's just unfortunate for me that I latched onto her when really I shouldn't have unfairly put all my eggs onto her.

There's no right or wrong in what I did; but I've learned a lot here and that I can go forward and better myself as a person. I've told this girl that's what I am going to do now because it's quite unfortunate how I came across to her and that I've learned a lot from her in the short time I've known her.I really did wish her the very best. But I shouldn't have been dating her whilst my life is unsettled. I know you said not to dump on her what's going on, but I've explained that unfortunately this is the root cause to my behaviour the last couple of dates. I am living my life in pure fear of the outcome and I kept consciously painting what things would be in the future, rather than the moment. Yes I put a lot of pressure on this girl; so much she's lost for words. But it's this thing you said that speaks more volumes than truth.

10.

Wow. Okay. Yeah, she did get burned hard and she basically told you exactly how.

And she's in a position where she's fucking herself over; she wants kids and marriage soon but imposes odd restrictions for how a relationship can start and grow. She's choking it out with mistrust.

She is having issues opening up, which makes her seem like someone who can't be trusted, which is ironic because she's doing it to avoid this sort of thing from the one's she's dating, but all it has probably done is make trustworthy guys want to bail, leaving the ones who will ironically be the guys who'll fuck her over.

This is not my problem anymore. I tried to make it my problem, and this is where I failed. I wanted to be somebody who I wasn't and I choked the death out of it. I guess she sensed my desperation and she pushed away.

Plus, you asking actually makes her more likely to NOT want to see you again.

It actually made her less likely to open up. That's fairly normal response for a female that's got trust issues. The fact I lied made this all but unrecoverable.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

11.

There is hope in this situation though. I've learned that "I ought to consider the extremity of my emotional response to this person I barely knew." If I can work on this then this situation may never arise again. I guess you live and you learn. I'll be extremely guarded with females from now on and not let my feelings and emotions get the better of me. But you do realise I would have tried my best to see things through with her, for as long as emotionally possible. Online dating is over-hyped and is probably one of the worst places to find someone to have a relationship with. This brings me to the point. She won't find someone on there. The proofs in the pudding. I gave her what she wanted, agreed probably a bit to much early on and this scared her off. This whole relationship I had with her wasn't missing the basic ingredients for love. It was missing the verbal communication. I am a Pilot, I am very good at communication skills. Although social intelligence is not my number one trait.

12. I read the following. The meaningful interactions depend on two factors: (1) the right opportunities (the right time, place, persons, and further communications) and, (2) the right mind (absence of biases about the self and others). This became far too much push rather than push and pull. What you say is very true but I think there was way too many red-flags that I missed and shouldn't have ignored. I wasn't in the right time of my life and the right frame of mind to be making this work. I've explained this to her in short way. So that gives me some closure.

13.

I know her message was very final. But I've had multiple girls blow me out in similar fashion and some have ended far more dramatic than this. I've been blocked and deleted and had a right go at. (I haven't been blocked by this girl, yet..). But a huge amount of girls that pushed me away when I pushed them have come running back. Not just weeks later, months later, sometimes even a year later. I have this thing about me that brings them back, which isn't any good for my health lol!But yeah, I am not saying this girl would come back. Damage has been done with the lie so that potentially has alienated her to loose all feelings. Right? But then if you look at her past successes - they aren't pretty. 1 long relationship, 1 short relationship and multiple dates with men that obviously didn't want what she was ready for. I wanted what she wanted but she doesn't want me, so I've walked. Like I always do - it's left me with no choice but to walk with my head held very high and that what hasn't killed me will make me unbelievably stronger. A little inkling tells me, and I won't be twiddling my thumbs waiting but this girl will turn up again for whatever chemical action in the brain. Maybe you have the answer?

P.s. Sorry for the long essay but it's a recap of what is definitely fact and some opinion.

[–]recyclablebanthas2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can't explain how but we both met up today. We met as friends, and It was fine - she was a little bit flirty but I was very laid-back. I told her about my work situation and she actually told me I should have told her from the outset. That I was having a shit time but didn't want to talk about it.

She said she knew something was wrong and she wished she trusted her gut instinct over me which she will do in the future. She thinks we aren't compatible because I lied so much and that I didn't deal with the situation very well at my worst and she wants someone who deals with things at there worst. (Good luck).

Anyway we had a good chat, she seemed to be more open with me as I backed off. Strange that? From what she said, I've taken that we are just friends and nothing more but then I told her I'd be honest with her from now on. She opened up a bit more.

So can I get out of the dreaded friend-zone with this one? She has an opinion about me, and I've gotta change it. She agreed to meeting me on Friday after she finishes work for food and drink. I guess I shouldn't blow this second friendzone chance that may progress if I am 0.01% lucky?

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Can't explain how but we both met up today.

Can't, or don't want to? :P

She said she knew something was wrong and she wished she trusted her gut instinct over me which she will do in the future.

Trusted her gut instinct...... what was her "gut instinct" telling her?

She thinks we aren't compatible because I lied so much and that I didn't deal with the situation very well at my worst and she wants someone who deals with things at there worst. (Good luck).

Good luck? Not at all.

Shit is going to happen. And if people are in a partnership and they do what you did, that kills the relationship.

She's not wrong.

Anyway we had a good chat, she seemed to be more open with me as I backed off. Strange that?

Strange? No. You're friends and she's being friendly. You should resist the urge to read more into it.

So can I get out of the dreaded friend-zone with this one?

Most friend-zoning is between people who've had no physical escalation at all, with the guy failing to make any moves and finding out months later that it's too late.

Your situation is different. You've tried and it ran its course.

If you want to be friends, go for it. Sometimes a referral can be good and if you become good friends, she'll send people your way perhaps or at least speak well of you to girls you date that she talks to.

Or don't be friends. Either one is valid.

She has an opinion about me, and I've gotta change it.

No. You're doing it again; all that stuff that got you into trouble before? That's what you're already thinking and feeling again. You're driving yourself off the cliff again with this whole, "gotta change" her opinion.

That ship has sailed. Dating is a process of two people finding out where they fit into each other's lives and what emotional impact they have on each other. You've had an emotional effect on her and it led to her friend-zoning you.

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]recyclablebanthas1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ciudad_gris 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]ciudad_gris 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ciudad_gris 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RobbieGarrett 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link