A long overdue question about definitions. [NSFW Text]

oneiorosgrip · 2013-05-31T05:10:40+00:00

You said no, and she forced herself on you any way. If the circumstances were reversed, and you had performed oral against her will while she was fainting against the wall, she wouldn't have to ask anyone if that was rape. You'd be sitting in a cell right now.

Regardless, no matter how you feel about the incident, this

She had hit me on several unrelated occasions

sounds like an ongoing problem, and this

most recently attempted suicide in front of me

is manipulative as hell.

You're an abused partner. Your partner may have serious mental health issues. She could just be manipulative and abusive, or she could be very dangerous. It would be wise for you to leave that relationship.

jolly_mcfats · 2013-05-31T05:11:46+00:00

I think what's probably causing you confusion is that she clearly did not possess intent to rape. But you had expressed a lack of consent, and you felt violated. That's rape. Flip the genders of this story and there would be no room for debate.

The other thing that is probably causing you some confusion is that we're not allowed any empathy, even for accidental rapists, but we have so much empathy for young women. And, of course, there's the old idea that "guys all want sex and there is something wrong with you if you don't".

So- yes. You were raped. Probably by someone who did not intend to rape you. I'm not sure the definitions make the situation any less complicated, but hopefully they validate some of your feelings.

It sounds like a pretty messed up friendship. I wouldn't let her off the hook for hitting you just because of her ex. Her ex isn't hitting you- she is. She's responsible for her own actions.

Also, fwiw, no judgement from me on your bisexuality. Love who you want to love.

Ambientmouse · 2013-05-31T04:39:14+00:00

Honestly? The final bit (oral sex) could be considered sexual assault (legal definition) or rape (more colloquial "didn't consent"). This assumes you were clear in your nonconsent prior, and I would consider it very creepy/worse if this other person knew you fainted and continued anyway.

For a more practical answer, were I in your position I would ask myself if I felt violated... and more so still if I felt unsafe actually talking to this person about the matter. If the answer to both of these questions was no, I'd consider it pretty hard to call it rape... but I would also acknowledge that I have my own issues on this general topic which may be skewing my view of your situation. If the answer to both was yes, then I'd lean much more towards calling it rape...

Edit: having an annoying self-realization moment where I see I'm clearly in agreement with the idea that the possible victim's reaction is paramount, but likewise finding the subjectivity of it all so very obnoxious.

NeuroticIntrovert · 2013-05-31T06:01:04+00:00

I know this is supposed to be a safe space however under the guise of anonymity I feel like I'll be able to properly articulate myself and my position.

Heads up: This is not a safe space. As the sidebar says, this is a place for those who wish to discuss men's rights and the ways said rights are infringed upon. It is also, however, a place for disagreement, for dissent, and for debate.

Anonymity is entirely your choice, and doxxing (removing someone else's anonymity) is forbidden here, as I believe it is on the rest of Reddit.

I personally have found this subreddit to be safer than most places available to me, and anonymity is only part of that. I've also seen several people come here for this kind of support and advice and be treated well.

I've only ever been to one place I'd call a "safe space," and that was the office of a good therapist.

Anyhow, on to your question.

I am not a lawyer, but I am Canadian.

I responded with my pants and shirt going on and telling her to stop and that it was enough.

You didn't want any more sex. You told her to stop.

After this point, any further sexual contact that she made with you was nonconsensual, and any reasonable person would know that it was nonconsensual.

She did not stop. Instead she:

Pushed you into the door, which is physically coercive, and rather threatening. Legally, this is assault, (under the Criminal Code).
Pulled your penis out of your jeans, when she knew she did not have your consent to do so, which is sexual assault.
Attempted to perform oral sex on you, again, when she knew she did not have your consent. I infer that this means she put your penis in her mouth. I would call this rape. The Criminal Code does not use the word 'rape', does not have a definition of 'rape', so it would simply call this sexual assault.

An addition to the third point: you said that at this time you were being pulled in and out of consciousness. If you are unconscious - which, for some part of this act, you were - you are not capable of giving consent.

Under a decision by the Supreme Court of Canada, 2011 SCC 28, a person who is unconscious cannot give sexual consent. Therefore, performing sexual activity on an unconscious person is a criminal offence - whether or not the unconscious person consented in advance.

Any sexual touching that someone does to you, to which you have not consented, and which they do not have any reasonable grounds to believe you have consented to, is sexual assault.

When you tell someone to stop, they no longer have any reasonable grounds to believe that you have consented. If you tell someone to stop sexually touching you, and they continue to sexually touch you, they have committed a crime.

If you are unconscious or asleep and someone sexually touches you, they have committed a crime. This is the case even if you gave consent while conscious.

The exact kinds of sexual touching that make a sexual assault a rape, that's a bit murkier. The definitions used in law, in research, and in everyday conversations vary widely. In Canada, both law and government research do not describe or define 'rape'. The definition of sexual assault covers all rapes, as well as less severe forms of sexual assault.

I would say that because she enveloped your penis with her mouth (if I infer correctly), without your consent - I would call that a rape. Legally, it's an irrelevant distinction. Emotionally, it might not be.

I want to say a few things that I think it's important that you take home from this:

What she did to you was an assault. It was violence. It was wrong. It was illegal. It was also a violation of trust.

You did not deserve to have that happen to you.

She should be punished for what she did. Whether or not you want to go through the process neccessary to make that happen is entirely up to you. It's a decision that you make for yourself, based on what you need and want.

Whether you continue to interact with this person is your choice. Whether you continue to be alone with this person is your choice. Whether you continue to trust this person is your choice.

I would advise you not to interact with her, or be alone with her, or trust her. Regardless of her own history, she has shown, with her behaviour, that she will commit criminal physical and sexual violence against you.

It is not your responsibility to fix or heal her. It is not your responsibility to protect her. It is not your responsibility to keep her from killing herself. Your only responsibility, even if she is in life-threatening danger, or is putting someone else in danger, is to call 911. Anything else is your choice, not your obligation.

Her health and safety, both physically and mentally, is not your responsibility. Treating you with basic human respect is her responsibility.

rightsbot · 2013-05-31T04:08:17+00:00

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notnotnotfred · 2013-05-31T04:30:04+00:00

I know this is supposed to be a safe space however under the guise of anonymity I feel like I'll be able to properly articulate myself and my position.

if you've actually spent any time here at all, you know this is not true.

AceyJuan · 2013-05-31T05:56:17+00:00

Legally, that's sexual assault at a minimum. What really matters, and often forgotten, is this. If you don't feel raped and violated, let it go. It will do you no good to think of yourself that way. Your emotional well-being is most important, don't forget that.

avantvernacular · 2013-05-31T14:59:18+00:00

Sounds to me like you got raped.

KRosen333 · 2013-05-31T16:04:27+00:00

I know this is supposed to be a safe space however

Every space is as safe as you choose for it to be. Safety comes within, not from without, and no one here should be judging you for choosing your own level of safety. :)

I've seen much discussion over the past couple of months whilst browsing this board on the topic of said question (I'm going to avoid using the word as much as possible), especially an infograph which caught my attention. This pointed out the differentiation between the actual act of penetration and verbal manipulations/forced penetration which had never really entered my mind. This brings me to the story in which I will painstakingly tell and hopefully be able to get the balls to the wall answer for.

That might have been my infograph. If it was, then I have ultimately succeeded. I made it because people who know damn well that something that might have happened to them doesn't feel right need to know that it isn't right.

cheery folk music

I love canadian folk music. Stan Rogers is great. :D

(I realize the stigma but I ask to disregard that for a moments time)

People will get over it. Not a big deal anymore. There is more to being a man than who or what you want to fuck. :p

I feel by the definition of said infograph I would fit into the description.

This is usually hard. And it isn't because you are a man - it is because defining rape in general is hard.

If two consenting adults drink until they are dizzy and fuck until the moon falls from the sky, is it rape? Can either give consent?

Most states do not actually have 'rape' as something you can charge someone with. The same for most countries. It is interesting because you hear so much rhetoric using a word ("rape") when legally, it isn't a recognized word. The term most legal entities use is 'sexual assault.' But we still use it in everyday rankings of sexual assault, because the implication seems to be that one form of sexual assault is more acceptable than another (for example, when the one receiving the assault is a man, or when the one doing the assault is a woman).

What we have here - it is only opinion. None of us (unless they specifically state otherwise) are lawyers, not that it would matter depending on your location. With that opinion, comes the opinion of what most reasonable people would consider reasonable and unreasonable.

Prefacing with that, in my opinion, yes, it was rape. This is because you did not give consent and said 'no' ("I responded with my pants and shirt going on and telling her to stop and that it was enough"). One of the easiest ways to 'test for rape' as horrible as this sounds, is write down what happened, and then switch the roles - if it sounds like rape when a woman is being given oral stimulation against her will, it is probably rape when a man is being given oral against his will.

She had hit me on several unrelated occasions which she attributed to her ex, and most recently attempted suicide in front of me (the last time I cried was when I was begging for her own life).

This kid needs help. Have you asked her if she would see a counselor?

I don't mean to sound like anything, not a victim, martyr or example. I just want to know.

You don't sound like a victim martyr or example. You are a victim though.

I know it doesn't mean much now, but you are not alone in this crazy world anymore. More and more our society is becoming aware of the needs of men and boys.

tl;dr "I never asked for this" equals rape, as most reasonable people understand it.

Most of us luckily were never victims. I was never a victim. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And it doesn't mean that it is okay to ignore it when it does happen. It doesn't mean it is okay to ignore you.

:)

fukuaneveryoneuknow · 2013-05-31T11:30:24+00:00

I know this is supposed to be a safe space

No it's not.

If you get your feelings hurt, tough shit.

Title	A long overdue question about definitions. [NSFW Text]
Author	throw_away1011028275
Upvotes	3
Comments	14
Date	May 31, 2013 4:06 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1fdv3x/a_long_overdue_question_about_definitions_nsfw/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-long-overdue-question-about-definitions-nsfw.1172456 https://theredarchive.com/post/1172456

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