Toxic Masculinity from an MRA perspective?

eletheros · 2014-11-02T21:45:13+00:00

There is no toxic masculinity.

At best, the closest approximation to what they call toxic masculinity is traditionalism, and the fundamental life lesson in that is that there's no gun forcing anybody to act traditional if they don't want too. At least not here in the US, in 2014.

TRPACC · 2014-11-02T21:45:38+00:00

The mrm is often talking about toxic masculinity, but doesn't refer to as that (the mrm tends to think toxic masculinity means all men are toxic).

Paul Elam wrote a great piece a while back about it.

The difference is in the approach.

The mrm would have empathy for men being told to man up and so on.

Feminism will only have empathy when a woman is precieved as being negatively effected by toxic masculinity and go about dealing with it by shaming men as a group.

SwanOfAvon22 · 2014-11-02T22:42:57+00:00

It's simply a smear used to paint all men with a broad brush. Any good social scientist has to account for why men are more likely to commit crimes, but if you reduce that down to "toxic masculinity" you're pushing an agenda, not honestly approaching a difficult and nuanced topic.

A great example of the agenda-pushing is Anita Sarkeesian's latest Twitter ranting about how "toxic masculinity" was responsible for the most recent school shooting. What % of men shoot up schools? Sure, a majority of the people perpetrating mass shootings are male, but with ~150 million men in America alone, it's hard to single out "masculinity" or some false ideal of it as the root cause, particularly when school shooters are so vanishingly rare. Untreated mental illness is almost always the common denominator, but to acknowledge that would be to let men off the hook, so "toxic masculinity" is blamed.

This is part of the "heads you lose, tails I win" moral calculus of modern feminism. When a majority of school shooters/murderers/violent criminals are men, that's a problem rooted in social conditioning and masculine ideals. When men give more to charity, file more patents, start more businesses, work longer hours, take on more dangerous jobs, support families or lead social causes, that's an example of society holding back women, who, it is taken for granted, would do all of those things in equal numbers to men were it not for the pernicious patriarchy.

ugly_duck · 2014-11-02T22:56:39+00:00

[permanently deleted]

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-11-02T23:48:33+00:00

Good post.

I've always been comfortable using the phrase "toxic masculinity" so long as we accept the corollary existence of toxic femininity as well.

The ultimate problem with trying to come up with "a positive masculine role model" is that invariably it will result in a form of gender-policing, i.e. "real men are X, Y and Z."

In terms of positive role-modelling, I tend to think in terms of people being morally virtuous (by my standards), and I think morality is gender-neutral. Indeed, it is because morality is gender-neutral that we can talk about toxic masculinity and toxic femininity; both gender roles can encourage or excuse immorality.

saoran · 2014-11-02T21:02:03+00:00

more insight on masculinity and its possible negative effects.

there are no negative effects to masculinity.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2014-11-02T23:30:56+00:00

I believe that there are aspects to the current model of masculinity which do more harm than good in the context of modern society.

The complete dependence on women for validation would be the best example I can think of.

Men base too much of their self esteem on whether they have a relationship with a woman, whether that's purely physical or something more. Boys are told from puberty that they are worthless if they don't have a girlfriend.

Men also feel they need women for even a completely platonic emotional connection.

I won't call it "toxic masculinity" because that's not what feminists mean when they use the term.

MakeItHilts · 2014-11-03T04:11:48+00:00

It feels like you're on a kind of mission here. Are you looking for some sort of shock-quote, or something you can mine for a paper or blogpost?

I say that because I feel reasonably confident that anyone genuinely sympathetic to -- or in need of -- Men's Rights forums and spaces understands, above all else, that anything which goes by the name "Toxic Masculinity" is a term of art. It's both mean-spirited nonsense and a kind of hokum worldview salespitch: that there is some innate aspect of men that is fundamentally dangerous, suspect, criminal, psychopathic.

Anybody who would use that expression uncritically ... or even in your strange (to me) "hey-I'm-just-looking-for-answers-here" way ... seems like a hustler.

Saying "Toxic Masculinity" is essentially a cheap debate tactic to get the opposition to shut up, or to appear to have achieved some rhetorical victory. What does it mean? Whatever the speaker needs it to mean, in that moment, for maximum advantage.

Pornography_saves_li · 2014-11-03T04:15:39+00:00

There is no contempt for traditionalism in the sense many infer, except by misunderstanding. Traditionalists admonish men to 'man up and marry those sluts', 'for the good of society'. Mras said 'why the fuck should I?'. There are many, like you, that try to twist this into a desire to 'smash the patriarchy' type thing, but sorry, you're just plain wrong.

No matter how clever this shit sounded in your head.

kragshot · 2014-11-04T01:24:38+00:00

Ugly_Duck, you asked this question of another user a couple of days ago:

What makes you say the feminist's ideal version of masculinity reduces the male into a woman's subservient instrument?

If I may; I would like to point out an example that supports that idea and it is an easy one for you to find.

Look up any of the "Where have the real men gone" articles that have cropped up in the last three or so years. In particular, you want the ones that criticize men for walking away from marriage, dropping out of the corporate rat race, avoiding the hazardous jobs, and most importantly; men who are just living for their own personal needs (I definitely categorize MGTOWs and some MRAs in this group). These women who write these articles call these men "man-children," "losers living in their mother's basements," as well as other negative attacks meant to undermine their sense of adult and masculine identity.

You always hear feminists claiming that the idea of their movement is for both men and women to begin questioning their gender roles. But the moment that men begin to do so, outside of "feminist oversight," we are doing something dangerous and harmful to women.

Here's an experiment for you; ask any "self-avowed" feminist what she thinks about men having the freedom to explore their own gender roles and sexual identity outside of the framework of feminism. See what they say.

I can tell you what several groups of so-called feminists have to say about it...go look up all of the strife going on in Canada's academic scene. The feminists at Simon Frasier University would only "allow" a Mens center on their campus if their feminist association had oversight of it. They cited that if a mens center was allowed on the campus, it would become a video gaming, cigar-smoking, den of misogyny.

What is so frightening and harmful to feminists about men seeking out and examining our own sense of maleness among ourselves? What are they afraid of if we start asking questions about our socially-enforced gender roles? According to the parroted talking points of most feminists, you would think that they would be besides themselves with anticipation and joy about us being willing to question our gender identities and roles in society.

Nope.

Not even close.

Suddenly, when we have made that examination, we have found out the myriad problems that we have been saddled with by generations of societal expectations of male roles. Women made those examinations and found a way to break those shackles. But now that men are finding similar bonds holding them down, suddenly we are whining and complaining.

But enough wall-o-text...I await your response.

ugly_duck · 2014-11-02T21:11:31+00:00

Fuck off concern troll.

ZimbaZumba · 2014-11-02T22:19:04+00:00

Re:-

Toxic Masculinity

Don't discuss issues in a framing developed by others; this is a do you still beat your wife type of phrase. Simply drop the phrase or re-frame if you must.

Title	Toxic Masculinity from an MRA perspective?
Author	ugly_duck
Upvotes	0
Comments	55
Date	November 2, 2014 8:51 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2l3ev1/toxic_masculinity_from_an_mra_perspective/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity-from-an-mra-perspective.993959 https://theredarchive.com/post/993959

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