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[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 16 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
2XC is a mix of women's "issues" and women's issues, if that makes sense. It ranges from practical questions to economic suggestions to personal stories to whimsical to... well, a whole universe of female related issues, which is quite in line with its intended purpose.
This subreddit, on the other hand, deals primarily with two different kinds of posts: examples of female behaviour that goes against the stereotypically expected behaviour (which, I guess, is what is often interpreted as an anti-female bias) and other relevant stories that highlight maltreatment of males.
The focus of the two are quite distinct; 2XC is more of a discussion forum, MR is more of an activist focal point, which makes the difference in emphasis quite expected.
[–]kabochahead 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
That...that makes sense.
[–]kru5h 3 points4 points5 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
A more accurate comparison would be r/mensrights vs r/feminisms.
[–]catlebrity 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's true, but r/feminisms is also considerably less bitter than r/mensrights. Very few posts, say, about random men committing horrible crimes, etc.
[–]AnnArchist 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Men also have thenewman;men and a few others, all which go most unused because, well, we also have askreddit, relationship advice and basically every other reddit out there.
Women have chosen that as another personal sounding board. I do wish someone from mensrights had control of r/men. Its one of the billions of subreddits controlled by qgyh2; I considered asking for control of it once gingerroot seized control of r/women, but that was a little too reactionary for my tastes and well, he or she moderates that reddit as well
[–]emmster 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'm sure qgyh2 wouldn't mind letting you have r/men. I'd be happy to bring it up to him if you like. It doesn't look as though he's doing much with it, and he stays pretty busy with the approximately 800 other subreddits he moderates. I think you could really do good things with it.
[–]AnnArchist 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yea... he qgyh2 definitely has his hands full. Let me know.
[–]emmster 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've Pm'd him about it. I imagine either you or I will hear back about it in the next few days. I'll keep you posted if he lets me know anything about it.
[–]emmster 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Alrighty, looks like it's yours. I've subscribed, too. I look forward to seeing what you decide to do.
[–]kanuk876[🍰] 10 points11 points12 points 16 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link
My feeling is you have normalized misandry and don't recognize it.
Second, you give undue weight to men's directness (eg: Make me a samich, bitch) and underestimate the veracity of women's covert or passive aggressiveness (eg: pushing out dissenting voices from /r/feminisms, /r/equality, etc).
Third, there are not many places where you'll hear men speak without fear of reprisal. So how, exactly, do you expect to compare MensRights to what is "normal", per se, if you have zero experience hearing what actually goes through men's heads?
I'm an egalitarian at heart. Yet when I talk of genuine equality with most people, they think I'm crazy or a woman hater.
For example: my stance on infant genital mutilation is that it's wrong. Most people cannot tell you their opinion on genital mutilation unless you first tell them the sex of the victim. And then, well, to quote from a recent debate I had:
Male circumcision. Granted I can accept nerves and skin are lost which might assist in a better sexual experience. ... Female circumcision. People who order than shit need to be executed. There is zero reason for that to ever occur. That DOES result in harm and disfiguring the person for life.
Male circumcision. Granted I can accept nerves and skin are lost which might assist in a better sexual experience.
...
Female circumcision. People who order than shit need to be executed. There is zero reason for that to ever occur. That DOES result in harm and disfiguring the person for life.
Go figure.
[–]kabochahead 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
"My feeling is you have normalized misandry and don't recognize it.
Second, you give undue weight to men's directness (eg: Make me a samich, bitch) and underestimate the veracity of women's covert or passive aggressiveness"
I don't believe that I have normalized misandry, at least certainly not on a personal level. I do agree that my comparisons may be skewed by trying to equally interpret two different communication styles.
"Third, there are not many places where you'll hear men speak without fear of reprisal. So how, exactly, do you expect to compare MensRights to what is "normal", per se, if you have zero experience hearing what actually goes through men's heads?"
I don't! That's why I was asking. But where does the fear of reprisal come from? Are you saying that women implicitly draw out that fear in men, or is it fear of general repercussion for the ideas themselves?
"I'm an egalitarian at heart. Yet when I talk of genuine equality with most people, they think I'm crazy or a woman hater."
Both men and women across the board think you're a woman hater?
Don't mean to grill you, but I'm genuinely curious.
[–]logic11 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well, when I talk about unfairness in child support laws, my fiance gets angry, very angry. We have no children together, and I have a son from my previous marriage so the only direct impact fairer child support (and custody) laws would have on us would be to improve our financial situation (my son is almost 18 so the child support is almost over and my ex wife is vehemently opposed to child support on a moral basis and would return all of it to me, but her current husband is stuck with a child support bill for a kid he was denied access to whose mother is also anti child support who happens to be quite wealthy, but never mind that stuff).
When I talk about rates of adultery being about the same, most women I know get very angry, when I talk about rates of domestic abuse being about the same most women I know lose their shit (and I'm a male victim of domestic abuse, so fuck them). I tried talking to my mother about this stuff, she got furious and shut down the discussion instantly. She's a feminist and product of the hippie movement. The women we care about in our lives are often completely closed to talking about this stuff, so we have no real outlet among them, and since places that are male only are illegal we really don't have a meatspace venue to use.
[–]huntwhales 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I second this. I talk to my wife about these issues from time to time and she just shuts down the conversation and tells me I hate women.
The best example I can think of is men being falsely accused of rape. If I bring up this issue she gets angry and thinks I only care about men. When really false rape claims need to stop to protect women who are actually raped. They should never have to be questioned or second-guessed.
[–]kanuk876[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't believe that I have normalized misandry, at least certainly not on a personal level.
Fair enough. If you want to explore institutionalized misandry to see how your perceptions and ethics measure up, the books by Nathanson and Young Legalizing Misandry, Spreading Misandry, and their latest Sanctifying Misandry are good touchstones. I enjoyed Sanctifying Misandry the best as it explores the role of religion and mythology vis-a-vis gender roles in past and present societies.
But where does the fear of reprisal come from? Are you saying that women implicitly draw out that fear in men, or is it fear of general repercussion for the ideas themselves?
This is a big one. Logic11 explores several aspects using his personal, real-world examples. I refer you to an Interview with Aaron and Elizabeth Kipnis for a broader dissertation.
Umm... well maybe not woman hater. Other people get the woman-hater label more than me, I usually get called a nut-bar.
[–]kabochahead 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Thanks a lot, seriously. I'm going to check our your referrals.
Edit: I read the whole interview. Enlightening.
[–]Offensive_Brute 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
i get woman hater a lot. Not because I hate women, but because i don't back down or bend over or sidestep for women. I tell a bitch shes a bitch, and when bitch is speaking out of turn I tell her to go make her man a sammich. Do i hate my dog because I don't want him on my bed?
[–]catlebrity -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
when I talk of genuine equality with most people, they think I'm crazy or a woman hater.
Well, to be fair, you did recently suggest that bitching bitterly about women "is an important part of group therapy."
"http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bfapb/is_it_an_issue_that_men_face_then_its_a_mens/c0mhke2
[–]kanuk876[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So, according you to, my claim that bitching bitterly about women is an important part of group therapy make me (a) crazy, or (b) a woman hater?
You see, this right here, is a subtle form of silencing. You are making the case, ever so carefully, that if men speak from their feelings of anger or frustration regarding women, it's... what? Going to hurt women? Speaking one's feelings is a form of hatred? Venting makes one crazy?
Fuck off catlebrity.
[–]catlebrity -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
You see, this right here, is a subtle form of silencing.
Give me a damn break. People on this subreddit throw around words like "bitch" and "cunt" and "mangina" and if anyone calls them on it that's a "subtle form of silencing"?
You see, this right here, is a not-very-subtle form of silencing.
[–]AnnArchist 4 points5 points6 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Actually 2x has that bitterness and directs it towards r/mensrights....
[–]Il128[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I am bitter. But then again I'm abused and afraid and feeling helpless to get out of a bad situation.
[–]kabochahead 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm really sorry :(
[–]Feckless 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Several points, first of all I assume quite a few men here have been victims of some kind (bad divorce for example). Also this kind of community also seems to lure some misogyninsts in. That might be some of the reasons.
[–]cryptogirl 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
r/feminisms and r/women are probably better comparisons to r/mensrights because they're more political.
But even those reddits are pretty tame compared to some of what I see over here.
[–]neofool 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
By catering to different stances on the woman's side of things you can spread out opinions. I believe that if there were three different subs catering to men then the rhetoric would be more tempered.
[–]IRreb757 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I am 52 and very new to the internet and so maybe stepping where I don't belong, but gabe2011 had a point I think I can help with. I live in the country and have seen the old men sitting in front of a country store and there is most always one or two who do most of the talking while everyone else laughs and nods their heads in dissent or agreement. Perhaps there's a bit of the country store here.
[–]gabe2011 0 points1 point2 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Women do tend to talk more than men. It might be bc men have either too many complaints and don't feel like posting them or they believe every other men has the same ones and still don't post them. Or maybe they just don't care. Who knows.
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[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]kabochahead 4 points5 points6 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]kru5h 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]catlebrity 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AnnArchist 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]emmster 1 point2 points3 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]AnnArchist 1 point2 points3 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]emmster 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]emmster 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]kanuk876[🍰] 10 points11 points12 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]kabochahead 1 point2 points3 points (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]logic11 4 points5 points6 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]huntwhales 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]kanuk876[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]kabochahead 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Offensive_Brute 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]catlebrity -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]kanuk876[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]catlebrity -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]AnnArchist 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Il128[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]kabochahead 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Feckless 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]cryptogirl 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]neofool 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]IRreb757 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]gabe2011 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link