Questions to understand your movement (and members)

Hamakua · 2010-09-23T03:28:50+00:00

First I want to state, Awesome idea for a post.

What do you think of men who by choice engage in a profession that fits of the bill of sexist? (for example Chippendale's dancers or waiters/drivers/other labor hired for their looks, or in the opposite sense cooks and stock boys kept away from registers in fast food and grocery stores)

An abbreviated response: Nothing, of the chip and dales, subtle envy in that they can make that kind of money without having to invest in a skill-set, but I see nothing wrong with it. I have only been to a "gentleman's club" once myself and carry no interest in being erotically teased without the option to release the built up tension... seems pointless to me... but I don't begrudge the clientele at such establishments and at one point in time my little sister was considering stripping for money. I was supportive in that it's really really good money for the work done. She never did so and is almost at 6 figures now.

What is your idea of the PERFECT relationship? Open, community, monogamy, polygamy, none? Assume the sky is the limit, you don't have to subscribe to any definition, but please stick to your beliefs and not day dreaming.

If you go through my post history you will see occasional incursions into relationship advice. Best summary of my views:

I wish I could get married. I want to get married.

Marriage is broken, severely broken and is nothing like the ideal that is "taught" to us. It's a one-sided contract devoid of any equality. I believe its instability is at least in part due to this one-sidedness. There is little incentive for a particular gender to attempt to live through the "hard times" and that particular gender, over the other, has the overwhelming backing of the state to get whatever they want.

The same applies to family, I want kids, I think I would make a great dad, I have wanted to be a dad since my early 20s but never wanted to be one that young. I look forward to being a dad, and would look forward to being a husband... but once again... they system is broken. I have spent over 10 years studying the system looking for a way to exclude myself from it (get married but not be subjected to the barbaric one-sidedness) or fix the system quickly. Neither are possible and it saddens me daily that this is the world I live in.

Concerning monogamy. I have studied enough literature and research to understand how the human mind and our motivations work. While we are not naturally monogamous, we are also not naturally polygamous. To keep it short, We like monogamy when it suits us (we get jealous) but we also are tempted to "Step out". How much of this is biological programming is often debated, but it's definitely there. Personally, I believe in monogamy even if I know there will be times where I am "tempted". That I understand this gives me assurance that I will never ever ever cheat. Also, humans have more control over what makes them happy than western culture holds them accountable to. People today cheat or divorce over minor things because they are so spoiled by the "me me me" "now now now" of the instant gratification culture. Marriage, or a relationship isn't supposed to be 24/7 drudgery, but anyone who thinks it's not supposed to be WORK at times is a complete fucking Disney Princess idiot.

The problem with Rom.Coms and Disney ideals is that they only show you the Prince Charming happily ever after over a span of 2 hours. Any relationship can be glorious for two hours... expecting it to be 18 (raise kids) to up to 60 years of 24/7 happily ever after is naive and selfish. -There is far more to this, but I am cutting it short.

[Edit] Sorry

Perfect relationship: finding someone who compliments me and won't divorce me over the first sign of relationship ennui

What is the best way to raise children? Should there be a difference in how you raise sons and daughters (as far as encouraging their well being but also to show how your view would affect future generations)?

Raising kids? If I had kids I would treat them differently, but not based on their gender, but based on them. Having kids is a devotion, or I see it as such, it's an 18 year suspension of your personal dreams and habits to bring new people into the world and shape them as best you can. There are no perfect parents, but there are good ones and bad ones. One thing I insist on for my kids, when/if I can have them, is a family that can stay together for at least 18 years.... and this is where a lot of my frustration lies.... the current western system offers absolutely no positive chance of this happening.

As far as the difference between sons and daughters, I see them more as individuals, but to address your question... nope, I really can't see treating them any different along gender lines. What I strongly believe -supported by enough study, is that "gender stereotypes" are not baseless. We are genetically programmed to have one disposition or another.

LEGOS - all the kids get legos, but if my daughter (or son) asks for a barbie for Christmas, she (or he) gets a barbie. Punishment will be an empty room devoid of an electrical entertainment with an old-school encyclopedia, a desk, a bed, and 3 squares a day of bland food. I also liked something a girl's parents made them do over on XX. When the girl was bad she would get "clothing" punished, in that she had to wear a simple uniform.

I see little wrong with physical punishment as long as it's punishment and not an outlet for parental frustration/venting. There is a difference, I was subjected to both from different parties, I can tell the difference. Physical punishment is more effective at a young age. I will not raise a spoiled brat, but I will give my kids as much of the world as I can.

What struggles to men face in looking for work, applying for school, being members of clubs/sports/other organizations? What anxieties do you face the most in society?

For work: finding it and not hating it. Those are my main two anxieties. Distant third is saving up enough to not hate living life after I can no longer work.

Applying for school: Talking about the state of education down gender lines will just make me angry, needless to say "in the name of equality" over the last 20 or more years boys have been pushed to the back in preference and determination of getting girls to the front. I don't believe this was done maliciously, but the numbers are fucking in, and it HAS happened -and the main perpetrator of this is feminism- don't fucking try and sugar coat it.

Where the boys Aren't - 2006

Gender Gap Remains Stable at 57% Women - 2010

The Trouble With Boys -2006

Teachers 'fuelling gender gap by stereotyping boys as badly behaved' -2010

As far as anxiety over clubs, this is the age of the internet, and I never liked an "all boys" club - tends to be Misogynistic or at the very least too conservative for my tastes. Some culbs or groups attract one gender more than another (reddit for example) but I don't care about being exclusionary, as long as the members don't create drama... that's another thing though.

I believe the "gender stereotypes" in mating rituals are a larger burden on men than women. Primarily in that we are expected to earn, to look somewhat good, and to initiate most (all?) the time. "society" expects us to deal with, and get used to rejection... but at the same time media tries to sell the ideal guy as someone who "loves" as though he was never scarred by rejection. It's a fucking contradiction... the result are that the "ideals" women notice the most are fakes who learned long ago to not care about caring.

Another thing, the presumption that men don't feel, or, the expectation for them to not show it. And then the criticism of them not showing their feelings, and then when they do they are chastised for it. It's a whirlwind of contradictions.

On top of this men naturally internalize a lot of things, so when they do show emotion, I would suggest that it's a factor greater than what everyone sees relative to the emotion women show because it took that much more of it to come to the surface.

See: Suicide, Male/Female rate vs. attempt. Women attempt it far more often than men but men complete or commit it successfully more than women.

What brings you the greatest pride in yourself? What are you happy, comforted by, or excited about the most in life?

Pride in myself shifts, but I am very proud to be world traveled, I feel I am well rounded, I can relate, even to the opposition fairly and easily. I am thankful for my natural insatiable curiosity for almost anything as it has been an efficient vehicle for obtaining knowledge.

I am most comforted by my ability to critically think, that or Mom's thanksgiving dinner... that and I have a great sister that will always be there for me. I am most excited about whatever the next step in life is, I want a family one day, but I don't see how that will happen anytime soon.

kragshot · 2010-09-23T03:48:37+00:00

Well, I'll take a stab at it.

First question.

First off, I don't exactly believe that there are sexist jobs; just sexist people. Now before you take that as an extreme statement, realize that I acknowledge that there are always exceptions. Now to continue, stripping is a job that you have to choose to accept. Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head (in the US) and forces them to strip. It is also a job that pays quite well. I know this because I used to manage a group of male strippers.

Then, I guess that I have to address "the Fall of Men," regarding the workplace. Until new advances in technology and industry come to the fore, American men are going to have to find a way to get back into school and start looking at professions that were considered feminine in order to compete. The industrial workplace has almost shifted toward a near-total global market. The last bastion for "educated" men was the IT sector and now nearly all of those jobs have been outsourced overseas. In order to get men back to work, we've got to eliminate the kind of thinking that led to gendered jobs. Obviously, there are going to be a few gendered jobs that no amount of "equalization" can adjust. Nevertheless, we have to find a way to adjust or else.

Second question:

No such animal; human beings are far too complex for such things. You just find somebody who suits and hope for the best. I've been married for 16 years. My marriage is not perfect, but my wife and I get along just fine because we talk and we understand that we have to have individual hobbies outside of the marriage.

Third Question:

With discipline, fairness, and love. Boys and girls have different needs in being raised, but beyond addressing those specific needs, there should be no difference in how they are raised. Both need to know that you love them, and at the same time that you will be firm and fair with them. Children are little sub-human savages that have to be broken to the yoke of civilized behavior...failure to do so, leads to obvious problems in adulthood...look at today's kids to see evidence of that truism.

Fourth Question

As my former employment was in the industrial/technical sector, I had to go back to school to change my focus of expertise, and by the time I finished, I found that even those avenues had dried up. My primary source of income comes from being a club/mobile DJ and writing, and that is not a whole lot. My wife is the primary wage-earner in our household. Thank God and providence that we have no children at this time.

As an African American male, I face a very specific set of challenges in my life. To put it bluntly, half the country is still calling me "nigger" and the other half is claiming that there is no more racism and I'm a recipient of undue privilege. In my experience, the only African Americans who are gaining anything from the current system are the girls and women (i.e. entrepreneurial grants, scholarships, government assistance, etc...) . The men and boys are getting short shrift across the board. In fact, President Obama being elected has only given both groups (the racists and racism deniers) more fuel than ever. I wouldn't change it if I could, but it's only going to get worse for African American males before it gets better.

Fifth Question:

Items of personal pride; that's an easy one; anything that I can accomplish with my own abilities/skills. It does not sound like much, but these days there's scant else. As for things that make me happy; the fact that thus far, I have avoided all of the pitfalls in marriage and have married a sane, supportive, and loving woman. Those things bring me no end of happiness in my current life.

Now I have a question for you.

What are you going to do with the things that you learn here? What are you going to take from all of this when you are done? A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing; who is going to be in danger once you have learned about us men?

2010-09-23T18:35:13+00:00

What do you think of men who by choice engage in a profession that fits of the bill of sexist? (for example Chippendale's dancers or waiters/drivers/other labor hired for their looks, or in the opposite sense cooks and stock boys kept away from registers in fast food and grocery stores)

I'm not going to presume to tell another person how they should go about earning a living, unless they choose to make a living by violence against me and mine. Hell, if I had the figure for it, I'd be a Chippendales dancer myself. I'd probably earn more money letting drunken women paw me than I would sitting in a cubicle writing code. Unfortunately, despite years of weight lifting, I'm still a bit stocky and can't get away with wearing a g-string and a bow tie.

What is your idea of the PERFECT relationship? Open, community, monogamy, polygamy, none? Assume the sky is the limit, you don't have to subscribe to any definition, but please stick to your beliefs and not day dreaming.

I don't believe there's any such thing as a perfect relationship. I think that as long as everybody involved is a consenting adult, anything goes.

I was married for six years, and that fell apart a couple of months ago when my wife admitted to infidelity and then assaulted me with a knife. I thought until that happened that we had a good relationship. We had mutual interests, and we also had interests of our own. We both worked for a living, and maintained separate finances. We had an active sex life until what I've taken to calling the "Night in Question".

I cherish the time I had with my ex-wife, but I would never get married again. I doubt that I would even pursue another long term relationship or allow another person to live with me. I married willingly, but found myself missing solitude.

What is the best way to raise children?

I don't think there's a "best way" to raise children, because children exhibit variations in temperament and intelligence early on. Having said that, I wouldn't raise a daughter differently from a son. I'd raise any children of mine to be independent thinkers, to take pleasure in reading, to pride themselves on independence and competence, and to take care of their minds and bodies. I'd teach them to put themselves first, because they can't and shouldn't count on anybody else to look out for them. And I'd make sure they both knew how to keep themselves strong and fit by pumping iron.

What struggles to men face in looking for work, applying for school, being members of clubs/sports/other organizations?

The struggle I face is the possibility that my knowledge and competence might not be enough to earn a job. Having recently completed a job search, I faced several situations where I wasn't being judged by my qualifications, skills, or experience, but by other unquantifiable factors. I even had one interviewer tell me, "You've got the experience and the skill for the job, but we want somebody who can connect with people. We don't want introverted male techies working for us who are just going to come in, do the job, collect a paycheck, and go home."

What anxieties do you face the most in society?

Not being able to earn my own way. I fear having to depend on the kindness and generosity of others, because in my experience those qualities tend to be in damnably short supply. I spent my boyhood dependent upon people. That isn't how I want to spend my life as a man.

As a long-haired metalhead who wears his hair loose even with suits, I find that people don't know what to make of me. They fear that they can't rely on me because -- even though I take better care of my hair than a lot of women -- my hair is also longer than that of a lot of women. Because I rarely smile, a lot of people think I'm angry all the time. Because I'm fairly muscular, people either assume that I'm going to start a fight, or assume that I'm willing to play the beast of burden; they see the muscle and ignore the eyeglasses and the laptop.

What brings you the greatest pride in yourself?

Mastery. I don't mean mastery over people; I find that people who seek authority over others tend to be people who can't rule themselves. I mean mastery of skills. I take pride in the abilities I've built through years of practice.

What are you happy, comforted by, or excited about the most in life?

I had said that that was none of your business, but it seems churlish to answer all of your other questions but not this one. It doesn't take much to comfort me; having one of my two cats curl up in my lap and start purring is usually enough (the other one usually perches on my shoulder). I'm happy when I've accomplished a task that I've set for myself. It doesn't matter if I've gotten all of the housework done for the week, cooked a tasty meal for myself and my guests, met a deadline at work, or finished a draft of a novel -- or even written a new chapter. I derive my happiness by doing things that matter to me.

kloo2yoo · 2010-09-23T02:32:15+00:00

I'll IM my response to you.

2010-09-23T03:51:09+00:00

this may be the most interesting reddit to turn back to

jackwripper · 2010-09-23T05:38:54+00:00

Nothing to get upset about in of itself. The medias double standards on this (and other issues) are what I get upset about. Semi nude women on TV is wrong, but parades of semi nude men on daytime TV is perfectly OK with the media. Every advert with a woman as a sex object is wrong, but where I am, nude men advertising chocolate, chocolate biscuits and sugar is OK with the media.
A stable relationship is my perfect relationship. I do not speak for every MRA, but for some strange reason, I have always attracted bisexual women. Most keep this a secret until we are together, so I am not deliberately trawling for bisexual women. So preferred relationship type would be polygamy but that is only to keep emotions and sex under the one roof, instead of running the risk of wandering in the future. My situation is not normal though. Most MRAs I know do not even know what Polygamy is until I explain it to them.
The best way to raise children is for both parents to be involved on a daily basis. It is also preferable that government stays out of all families... even for single mothers. I have never seen good things come from government involvement. I do not see any difference between girls and boys. I only have boys, but I am sure I would raise a girl exactly the same way... yes she would wear pink, but some of my sons prefer pink as a colour, so have many clothes that are pink. I also believe in real discipline, but the freedom to explore life and make mistakes for themselves. I do not teach stranger danger considering the tiny risk compared to the obvious damage stranger danger does to social development.
I have never had troubles finding work. But, I put that down to my world class artistic abilities. Companies have always head hunted me. Currently I am setting up my own production company. Schooling was terrible for me, and is terrible for my sons. Teachers are very sexist. So sexist, I am opting for home schooling. Being large (6'6 and large) I cause fear wherever I go. Even though I create cute childrens characters for a living, women especially try actively not to interact with me in public places. This can make a lot of normal interactions difficult. No one leaves children with me (other than my own), but I am the first person people turn to when there is physical danger and they need someone to protect them.
I love my wife, my career and my children. Maybe I am a simple man, but these people/things make me very happy.

ignatiusloyola · 2010-09-23T02:37:35+00:00

*What do you think of men who by choice engage in a profession that fits of the bill of sexist? (for example Chippendale's dancers or waiters/drivers/other labor hired for their looks, or in the opposite sense cooks and stock boys kept away from registers in fast food and grocery stores)

What do you mean - what do I think of men who are sexist or who are discriminated against?

*What is your idea of the PERFECT relationship? Open, community, monogamy, polygamy, none? Assume the sky is the limit, you don't have to subscribe to any definition, but please stick to your beliefs and not day dreaming.

That is something that each individual has to address. To assume that all MRAs have a similar view would be to ignore that each MRA is an individual. I don't think that there is an "ideal" relationship, but I similarly don't want to be told by someone else what is (ie: modern psychology/feminism saying it is one way).

*What is the best way to raise children? Should there be a difference in how you raise sons and daughters (as far as encouraging their well being but also to show how your view would affect future generations)?

Depends on the kid and their experiences. Raising a kid one way when they are very young can produce a different personality as an adult that requires a different response. I think discipline is important in raising kids, and consistency, but I don't believe in physical violence or any form of hitting. I think it is important to combine two types of discipline - discipline that does not require cooperation, and some that does, depending on the infraction. I also think it is important to be involved in the child's life and education, encouraging homework and a strong work ethic. But I am different from other people.

*What struggles to men face in looking for work, applying for school, being members of clubs/sports/other organizations? What anxieties do you face the most in society?

In my teaching, I have been told repeatedly that I need to watch how I interact with female students. That bothers me. I went through my entire undergrad without a single scholarship, even though I had top marks (I graduated 4th in my class, behind 3 people who had perfect GPAs), and I had to work my butt off all summer to pay for it. My female colleagues had near full scholarships. While their success doesn't have a direct effect on me, and I don't think that they shouldn't have received the scholarships, it should still give you an idea about the issues I face that some other people don't.

My biggest social anxiety? Would definitely have to be being accused of rape or some other issue when I haven't actually committed a crime.

*What brings you the greatest pride in yourself? What are you happy, comforted by, or excited about the most in life?

My greatest pride is my career success. But philosophy topics (I am a physicist) excite me more.

2010-09-23T02:57:28+00:00

1) people hired for their looks male or female is nothing new. Just dont try to hide it and admit you are visually whoring yourselves out, theres no real double standard there. Sometimes physical appeal helps bring in the cash.

2) there really is no perfect relationship i prefer a monogamous, relationship, no secrets, perfect balance of closeness/awayness but hey, to each his own.

3) two loving parents is whats best. Id encourage my kids to pursue their passions and interests whatever they may be and try to expose them to as many thing in life that I can. I am going to hold them to the same rules (curfew, dating, etc)

4)being cut, public humiliation, not being qualified, being discouraged because you are a guy or not having needs tended to because of being a guy. General health (physical and mental). Most of all, the male identity crisis

5) all men by nature desire to know-aristotle

...and horror movies are fun too

MyGoneWild · 2010-09-23T03:18:21+00:00

What do you think of men who by choice engage in a profession that fits of the bill of sexist?

Chippendale dancers are in a different category then waiter/drivers etc. Chippendale dancers are "performers" the other jobs you mentioned are not. I think higher the other people because of "looks" is simply wrong, or hiding them away because they don't have the "looks" is wrong as well.

What is your idea of the PERFECT relationship?

Whatever each person defines it as, for me personally, as long as me and the other person is happy then it's perfect. No one should tell me what I should have or shouldn't have. (ie there's someone for everybody)

What is the best way to raise children? Should there be a difference in how you raise sons and daughters?

The best way to raise a child is whatever way leads to a healthy adult human being. I would encourage intelligent discussion between me, my kid and anyone else that they wish to be involved in. Teaching the kid how to socialize, be responsible, and just be an all around good person would all lead to these things.

What struggles to men face in looking for work, applying for school, being members of clubs/sports/other organizations? What anxieties do you face the most in society?

I mean, there are all sorts of struggles, from the "image" look you talked about before to making sure you are "man" enough in other groups. Another one is how we interact with children is often closely scrutinized. They are really too many to mention.

What brings you the greatest pride in yourself? What are you happy, comforted by, or excited about the most in life?

There are lots of things, but simply put I would say my relationships with other people, and hopefully in the future my family.

DiggingNoMore · 2010-09-23T15:10:12+00:00

*I don't judge anybody by their profession of choice, unless it's illegal.

*Monogamy, a man and a woman.

*I intend to raise my sons and daughters as identically as possible. I'm not going to encourage my son to play with the firetruck and my daughter to play with the doll. I'll throw a football with whichever child wants to and I'll jump rope with whichever child wants to.

*Men are generally better at jobs that require a little brawn, but those jobs are going out of style. Women, as the fairer sex, seem to get the jobs with a prominent place in front of clients/customers. I submit that men are generally more analytical, so they have an advantage in number-based jobs; while women have the advantage in more creative jobs. That's how I see it. I am upset, though, with affirmative action, and women's groups without a male counterpart.

*Spending time with family makes me happiest.

mean0dean0 · 2010-09-23T02:59:05+00:00

1) Guys aren't sex objects. That is, guys can be sexy--but the reason women love men isn't because of their washboard abs. It's their ability to be "the man," to take care of the house, the gal, the kids, whatever. I don't grudge a hot guy getting a few bucks while he's still got it!

2) Perfect relationship should be with ourselves. Too many guys have swallowed the "pleasing her gives you pleasure" line, and now we have no idea what pleases us. We need to learn what WE want for a change.

3) Children should get love and discipline, in that order. Too much of one or the other is bad; men need not be involved, but women must understand that if you LOVE someone, you don't try to CHANGE THEM; that goes doubly for your own frickin' children.

4) Other men. Seriously, war, plague, famine and genetic deficiencies usually kill most of us off; in modern society, we have to contend with so much competition and meet so much resistance, gals just don't understand.

5) "If" by Rudyard Kipling. My dad left when I was young, but he told me that everything i needed to know about being a man was in that poem. Also, seriously savaging that ass; frankly, there's nothing better than your girlfriend looking at you like you're some kind of wild animal after a serious bout in the bedroom. Video games too.

thetrollking · 2010-09-23T22:51:57+00:00

would like to know more about what makes the typical guy tick (the internet says boobs, but I've been friends with them long enough to know the well goes deeper then that).

This is why women shouldn't be allowed in mens rights. What is she really asking here? She isn't seeing men as humans, just cherished utility objects that make her life easier and she wants to be a better slave master by increasing their output. Before I get flamed, let me explain my reasoning:

First, I grew up with a feminist mother and have had feminism shoved down my throat in school and the home and by female friends. Infact I would say that feminism was a inspiration for my views but not in any good way. I have been on both sides of the fence, in fact, at one point in time(as a teen) I was a bit of a white knight saying things like "don't say that about women man, that's misogynistic and would you say that infront of your mom and blah blah blah."

I also got to a point, like most guys, where I listened to women and they told me(female marketing) that women are like this or that and then what happens? They turn out to be the opposite. See this is why feminists and females hate game/PUA. It exposes their con artistry for what it is. Being on both sides of the fence I noticed one thing in particular that every male should be aware of:

There is a clear informational wall or barrier between the sexes. Women may project themselves and their behavior(female marketing +freudian slips) onto the male group thinking that they are speaking to the male experience but they aren't. They are projecting their experience onto men. ex/ "all men think with their dicks, or small head." is something they will say, but watch and see how women think with their clits, following whatever bad boy thug can give them gina tingles with displays of dominance. Or another ex/ They will talk about how men are all emotionless sociopaths and blah blah blah but then turn around and complain about the male ego, and how it's made of fragile glass that can be destroyed with a wisper, or that we're nothing but cry babies. This doesn't define the male experience, it just shows the volatile emotional experience of the females saying it, or projection.

Back on point: Females know alot about male behavior from raising men, from dating men, and getting together with their gfs to gossip about men. Then they market themselves to men, telling men all sorts of falsehoods and creating a clear informational wall that gives them an advantage in all walks of life. This is why their first and usually last attempts at arguments deal with shaming language...they all know this because they get together and gossip about how they can put men in their place by simply holding up their pinky finger or some other shame tactic.

tldr: She is only asking because women as a group are getting scared because their control tactics aren't workin on men anymore and she's fishing for info on why so she can gain an upperhand in her dealings with men. Women shouldn't be allowed in the MRM.

Title	Questions to understand your movement (and members)
Author	femaleAmbassador
Upvotes	5
Comments	22
Date	September 23, 2010 12:01 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dhle7/questions_to_understand_your_movement_and_members/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/questions-to-understand-your-movement-and-members.1047334 https://theredarchive.com/post/1047334

Comments