Models by Mark Manson encourages honesty and vulnerability, but TRP encourages being stoic and not showing weakness.

wakethfkupneo · 2014-05-09T08:40:15+00:00

Not really. The problem is that people generally associate "vulnerability" with weakness, while Manson has something different in mind (and it really was a bad wording choice on his part).

Here's how "vulnerability" can show strength and what he really meant:

http://markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women

Example 3: Vulnerable Man with Manipulative Woman

Him: So after school I actually hitchhiked my way down to San Diego. It was a little bit crazy and my parents hated it.

Her: Wow, you’re pretty irresponsible.

Him: Not really.

Her: Ditching your family to go and try to be some badass surfer guy. Give me a break. How self-centered can you be?

Him: That’s a pretty judgmental way to look at it.

Her: I just think it’s stupid and disrespectful.

Him: Well, it’s clear our values differ. It was nice meeting you.

Her: Wait, what?

Him: Goodnight.

Her: Are you serious? You’re leaving? NOW?!

Him: Yes.

Her: I’m sorry. Wait. Don’t go. I didn’t mean it like that.

Him: Walks out

This is an example of how vulnerability can embody strength. The power of vulnerability comes in setting strong boundaries. In this example, the woman is judgmental and probably exaggerating her objections in order to make the man feel insecure around her. He identifies her judgment for what it is and has the balls to come out and say it. He identifies that she’s not living up to his values or expectations, lets her know and then promptly dumps her on the spot. This is not easy to do.

rporion · 2014-05-09T10:55:38+00:00

My take on this whole thing I posted on SoSuave:

"Iron John", "Models" and what I learned from it

In Iron John, Bly writes about initiation rites and how they are important to turn boys into men. The usual procedure seems to be that men raid the area where women and children live and despite the womens mock resistance carry the boy away.

There, they break the boy so that the man can emerge and they give him a physical reminder of his new status, maybe they knock out one tooth, maybe they give him a scar, maybe he gets circumcised, it does not really matter.

Women are born, men are made by other men.

Do we have something like this today?

No, we dont.

In this day and age, with the high divorce rates, single mothers, predominantly female kindergarden, elementary school and highschool teachers it is entirely possible for a young male, not man, to grow up without male guidance or even a male role model altogether.

Add to that what Rollo Thomassi calls the "Female Imperative", basically a gynolatric society that is deeply suspicious of male virtues, and said young male does not even know what he is lacking, because he has integrated the female point of view into his core personality, so not only will he never sever the emotional umbilical cord, he will actively fight any attempt to sever it, he does not want to be unplugged.

Thus, the primal fear of a young boy to be disapproved of and abandoned by his mother, which would mean his death, is in many cases prolongued into adulthood.

Mark Manson in his book "Models" writes about how being vulnerable and opening up to a woman can create a deep and lasting emotional connection.

Now, I know, that goes against standard Red Pill doctrine, at least in part, because the orthodox view is that as long as you are aloof and unknowable you keep her interest and you lose it the moment you show any sign of weakness, doubt or insecurity. Now, even if an alpha showed some of it and it would help him building a closer and healthier relationship it would be explained away by saying that he has such a high SMV that he can get away with it.

This, I no longer believe.

It is often said that if an alpha does one thing and a beta does the same, that the very same action will be seen differently by women, I dare suggest that this is not true. The reason why women respond differently is because it is not and I repeat not the same thing.

When an alpha opens up to a woman he does not beg his mommy to dress and clean his wounds, he does not ask his mommy for forgiveness for his sins, he does not ask his mommy for approval for the decisions he made, he just tells her his story and how he came to be the man he is now.

The beta of course, never having left the world of women, does all of these things and therein lies the difference.

As should be common knowledge around these here parts, the main weapon of feminism is shame and ostracism.

They try to shame us into fat acceptance, they try to shame us into believing that fat, foulmouthed sluts are equal to, if not better, than kind, attractive and caring women and if anyone questions their bull**** and stands up to them he or she is cast out.

Now, who can be shamed into submission, who can be threathened with ostracism, who must bow, because he cannot stand on his own two feet?

Boys, not men.

In short, feminism as a whole, behaves like a toxic mother.

The deep suspicion feminism holds for any form of a healthy masculinity, with an agenda of its own, is due to the fact that they want you on your knees, they dont want you to grow up, they dont want you to cut the cord, because then.......

.....you are immune.

Then you are free.

needathrowawayplease · 2014-05-09T16:36:15+00:00

Vulnerability in a non-needy way means taking risks, putting yourself out there with the chance of being rejected or hurt. Think about what vulnerability literally means: capable of or susceptible to being wounded or hurt.

This has nothing to do with telling a girl about your insecurities or revealing your emotional weak points. It means taking risks and exposing yourself to failure, shame, rejection, etc.

Examples:

Asking someone out.
Not pretending you don't have nerdy hobbies and if a girl isn't compatible with your interest in gaming, you weren't right for each other anyway.
What Mark describes as 'polarizing' - that is, being honest and showing people who you are so they quickly polarize to someone who either likes you or dislikes you rather than having a neutral opinion of you.
Having a conversation about where a relationship stands or telling a girl you want to be exclusive at the risk of her saying no.

You can do all of these things and have a stoic reaction / frame. In fact, if you get rejected or hurt by someone but you maintain a stoic, strong frame and don't crumble, you'll be very attractive. So exposing yourself and being vulnerable sets up situations in which you can show your emotional stability.

Edit: I get the feeling a bunch of people here commenting haven't even read the damn book. Mark Manson's 'vulnerability' doesn't mean exposing your inner self at all. It has nothing to do with showing your emotional side. Jesus Christ read the book or the bullet point summary floating around.

aOs_Student · 2014-05-09T07:18:51+00:00

This might make sense in terms of being in a LTR. Since you have to mix in beta tendencies(showing vulnerabilities) with alpha...Correct me I'm wrong but i think it's somewhere around 70/30 with alpha being the dominant one.

gohammer3 · 2014-05-09T07:58:52+00:00

IF you want to a strong father and a good husband with a strong firm grasp on the household you should adopt stoic philosophy.

redbluepilling · 2014-05-09T09:57:41+00:00

vulnerable == genuine, when you choose to be. It's a power and treated with more weight and reverence if unexpected from someone so outwardly stoic.

TRP's "not showing weakness" --- think of it more physically/mentally than verbally. You can talk about your past or present struggles, but if you present them as sorted out or by having a plan, and are now strong and unaffected (stoic) regarding the problems, then you're fine. You're unshaken. You're able to be genuine, show he a deeper side to yourself, but it's not a mushy piece of shit ready to breakdown.

But again, it goes back to being in a position of value where being genuine matters, and it applies to more than just personal issues like the example above. Here's another: Open up and give her a heartfelt comment when she deserves one -- swoon. Also, if you're stoic, tearing back a bit of the mystery or revealing something of deep personal importance (but still, unshaken), 'just for her' gives her that deep connection (self-importance). She feels special and closer to you, but of course you still maintain all the major attributes.

So, simply put, you 'don't show weakness' in your ~~vulnerability~~ expression of heartfelt genuineness.

steadymotion · 2014-05-09T18:49:19+00:00

Being a vulnerable man is being able to crack open your stoic exterior to display that your interior, too, is strong like stone. Then you have shown her you are a full man. That's why it's so incredibly sexy. You're showing her that you have nothing to hide because you truly are a man through and through. What she sees really is what she gets. No tricks.

If you just put on a stoic exterior but your inside is soft and mushy, she'll find out you're faking it and attraction will be lost. Either she'll get you to open up and you'll spill your guts, or she'll get you to display your intense insecurity about opening up. Both outcomes prove to her that your inner self is wracked with fear.

If she asks you to open up and you say, "Sure," like it's no big deal and you bare your true self for her to see in all its glory, without any fear or shame whatsoever, because everything you are is pure manly strength and you have nothing to hide, then she knows she is dealing with an attractive man.

Vulnerability is the ultimate proof that you are an attractive man because you can't fake it.

magicalbird · 2014-05-09T21:34:26+00:00

Be vulnerable with a spine. That's the difference.

Title	Models by Mark Manson encourages honesty and vulnerability, but TRP encourages being stoic and not showing weakness.
Author	seddith
Upvotes	16
Comments	12
Date	May 9, 2014 7:09 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askTRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/25412g/models_by_mark_manson_encourages_honesty_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/models-by-mark-manson-encourages-honesty-and.139718 https://theredarchive.com/post/139718

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