Irony | MensRights

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It is obviously a collective effort

And this is based on what? Gut instinct?

The linked item was written by 1 person...alone. He was a moderator here ("was" being the operative word), and wrote many things which he included in the sidebar.

and it has been on the front page

It has been in the sidebar, not the frontpage. Regular r/MR users have no ability, whatsoever, to edit the sidebar.

so it would seem most of the community agrees with it

Why? We had no control over its content or placement, and we still don't.

including the current mods who have the power to remove it.

We currently have only 1 mod: ignatiusloyola. Ig has decided it would be insulting to Kloo2yoo for them to remove those things put in the sidebar by Kloo. That doesn't mean they actually agree with everything up there, it just means they respect the man who wrote them and wouldn't want to spit in his face.

[–]JustinTime112 -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

Not gut instinct, the fact that that post tags at least seven other MRAs as contributors

Kloo2yoo has QUOTED others. There's a difference between working with someone to author something and simply quoting them. For example: I've quoted you several times throughout my responses, yet you are not a co-author of my comments.

Also, right at the top of the sidebar there is "earning scorn from feminism since 2008"

...and? This has nothing to do with associating all feminists with radical feminists.

and the "difference between MRA and feminism"

Which wasn't written by a mod, and has nothing to do with associating all feminists with radical feminists.

all which link to a similar argument that all feminists can be assumed to be radical feminists.

No, they don't. The first one is an attempt to show reasonable people who identify as "feminists" why they should stop associating with the crazies. The second link is an article highlighting differences in a discussion the author had with a feminist and an unaffiliated person.

I'm starting to think you don't understand what feminism even is. Read this, and this

If you do not think that Kloo's post represents you, why are you arguing with me instead of lobbying to get it removed?

Lobbying? Seriously? This is a subreddit, not a fucking government or organization. The purpose of this subreddit is to share news on and discuss Men's Rights issues...that's it. We are not a 501(c)3, or a PAC, or anything like that...we're just a subreddit, and you're using a comment written by 1 person to generalize about all of us...while criticizing that same behavior. You are a hypocrite.

[–]JustinTime112 -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

The point is you do not agree that Kloo's viewpoint represents Mens' Rights, but you are fine with it being on the sidebar representing the forum

Because only a fool would actually believe the comments of one person are the opinions of all. It's a trivial issue.

If you actually believed in Mens' Rights

"Men's Rights" isn't an ideology; it's a movement based solely on issues. I don't demand ideological purity in a movement that isn't centered on any particular ideology; I can accept that others will have views which differ from mine. Kloo2yoo has always owned his own views and has never claimed they were the views of all MRAs. If he had claimed that all MRAs do/think/etc. X, and I disagreed with that, I would say something if no one else had...but he hasn't done that. You, on the other hand, have done exactly that...and so I've said something (for I saw that no one else had).

you would want this place to be more than just a place to spread news amongst you who already believe

Why? Reddit is a horrible tool for organizing. It's set up to be a news and discussion site, and that is how we use it. I've been involved with several projects (non-MRA stuff) which attempted to use Reddit for organizing (such as APP, and the healthcare policy thing from a while back)...they fall apart because the platform doesn't support it. The people become demoralized and lose interest. Why would I want anything like that to happen here?

you would also want it to show a convincing and logical face to those who do not believe in Men's Rights.

Which is something I try my best to do. However, I only have control over myself (which is how it should be, BTW). It's not my place to speak for others, and it's not their place to speak for me.

You are a concern troll...but you seem slightly more reasonable than others. As such, I think it's possible that you're simply misinformed re the MRM. Perhaps you should simply lurk for a while. Read the comments without derailing or trolling. I think that, if you did that, you'd get a better idea of what the MRM and r/MR are all about. Certainly you'll disagree with people -- many people -- but if you're reasonable then I believe you'll also see that many of our concerns are valid.

[–]JustinTime112 -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I really take issue with your thinking that only a fool would read a posted opinion in the sidebar right under "Who is Men's Rights?"

The heading for the post in question isn't "Who is Men's Rights". Only an idiot wouldn't recognize that bullet-points separate items.

If you are issue based, then it is a waste of time at best to have non-issues like Kloo's opinion on the sidebar, and at worse it drives away potential MRAs.

...and? Again, we have no control over the sidebar. If you want it changed, take it up with Ig...but they're going to basically reiterate the whole not wanting to spit in kloo's face thing.

What is the worst that could happen from the group of us politely asking the moderator to remove it?

It's not the worst that could happen, but it could divide the community. We're small in numbers, and constantly under attack. If a bunch of us decided this was an important issue (it's not) and demanded a change, what would happen if Ig decided not to change it? It could divide the community and leave us more susceptible to attacks like yours.

Sorry, we've seen it happen too many times and we're not interested in destroying ourselves over something so trivial.

[–]JustinTime1121 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Kill_The_Rich1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are being slippery.

Not really. This all started because you said:

Men's rights hates to be associated with women-hating abusive husbands who only want women to have children and cook them meals.

Men's rights is fine with associating feminists with the radical feminists who want a matriarchy.

You are moving the goalpost, not me.

Either most of the community agrees with Kloo, and you guys are ironically stereotyping, or else it is "just the opinion of one poster". Decide which.

This is a false-dichotomy -- there are several variants of agree/disagree/ambivalent regarding the comment in question, producing more than two options. However that doesn't really matter as my critcism is that you took the opinion of a single person and extrapolated it onto the entire community, while using that generalization in an attempt to criticize all of us for generalizing. The criticism, put simply, is that you're a hypocrite.

[–]JustinTime1121 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, I took the opinion hosted on the sidebar as information for people just getting into your community as representing the majority of your community. Don't act like it was just some random post I saw in a thread.

Whatever you see reflects the opinion of the individual posting it.

And sorry for the false dichotomy, here's the true trichotomy:

One can either be for, against, or indifferent towards it. For a community, you can either have all, most, some, or none...either for, against, or indifferent. Since it's effectively a zero-sum game, this leaves six, not three, possible outcomes. But that doesn't matter because you insinuated that it was all who supported this...and held up a single post written by a single person as proof. When called out on this, you moved the goalpost to it being "most"...which was backed up by nothing. Personally, I believe most are probably indifferent...because this is a trivial issue.

re your other comment because I'm tired of dealing with two threads:

It can still be raising someone up to take away a 'privilege'. For example, taking away man's 'privilege' of being the only gender allowed to do combat duties raises man up.

If taking something away is more beneficial to an individual than leaving it in place, then was it really a "privilege" for that person to begin with? I don't believe "combat duties" being hoisted upon men alone is a "privilege", but an obligation.

Similarly, feminists have gotten rid of their "privilege" to not having to work ever, in favor of having the ability to work.

So no one can be a housewife? It's no longer socially acceptable for women to avoid work? No, it's a choice. It's socially acceptable for women to either work or stay home. This is starting to change for men as well, but it's not quite there yet. For women, the privilege remains...which is fine, but it should be socially acceptable for men to do the same.

ALL privileges must be abolished.

Why? Should not citizens of a nation have privileges greater than non-citizens? Shouldn't those who work hard have privileges exceeding those who are lazy? Unjust privileges should be abolished, not all privileges in general. Those privileges conferred by our society based solely on gender are fundamentally unjust, but privilege itself is not always a bad thing.

I am sure they are out there and you haven't bothered to look for them.

Again, you base this on what? Gut instinct?

Radical feminism is sexist feminism, seeing patriarchy as the root cause of society's ills is sexism.

It sounds like you're saying that radfem is sexist, therefore any feminist that is sexist must be a radfem...this would be more fallacious reasoning (known as "affirming the consequent").

Patriarchy theory is just an aspect of nearly every variant of feminism and is a natural extension of the belief that men are above women in our society. Anyone who calls themselves a "feminist" but doesn't adhere to the 3 beliefs/assumptions (which I had outlined in the post I linked earlier) is not a feminist. But just because it's sexist and feminist, it doesn't necessarily mean it's radical feminism. The ideological tendency towards sexism is foundational to feminism itself. I wouldn't go so far as saying all of feminism is sexist -- because there are still societies where men are legitimately above women, making such beliefs reality-based as opposed to faith-based -- but I will say that feminism in nearly every western society is sexist.

Believe it or not most modern feminists are starting to attack this form of belief (I just took a women's studies class last year).

Oh, well this explains a lot.

I took a WS course as well...in 2006. There was no criticism of those beliefs, instead idiocy was held up as truth and feminism was praised. 5 years later and things are starting to change...why? What happened in those 5 years? Could it be the growing popularity of antifeminism as spread by those of us within MRM? Nah. Feminists are just super awesome and it's a total coincidence that sites like this seem to parrot our criticisms.

In the future, I wouldn't point to your WS class as if it conferred upon you any authority in the matter. Many of us have taken the same courses. Many of us have researched feminism, the WRM, etc., in our spare time...because it interests us. Many of us were feminists, before we realized just how fucked it really was.

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It's a deal-breaker for me because it would actually be sexist.

I think gender-equal feminists would actually be ripe for recruiting and understanding the issues that mens' rights represents,

Why should we bother trying to recruit actual feminists? In a society where men, as a class, are not privileged above women, the ideology of feminism (which asserts that men are above women and that women must be raised up) is fundamentally opposed to MR.

Instead, we partly focus on showing those non-feminists who erroneously call themselves feminists that feminism itself is not simply egalitarianism. You don't deconvert those people by talking about how great feminism is...you deconvert them by showing them the truth -- that feminism (the ideology) is anachronistic, and that, in a society such as ours, it leads to female-supremacy (see the train analogy in the link I provided earlier).

[–]JustinTime1121 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Feminism's goal is to raise women up, yes.

Which would only bring about equality if women were being raised UP to the level of men; if men are not above women, then raising women up would put them above men. More women than men go to and graduate from college than women...this is a direct result of feminists raising them up (special programs/scholarships/etc. for women only). Yet instead of either A) now trying to also raise men up to the level of women, or B) removing the special help given to women after it's no longer needed, the focus has been shifted to raising women up in STEM fields...the only aspect of higher education which still has a male majority. This isn't radical feminism...it's simply a manifestation of the foundation of the feminist ideology.

Only radical feminism wants disequality.

Then where are the non-radical feminist majority calling for an end to special privileges women enjoy in education?

More so, "radical" doesn't mean "sexist"...it simply means one favors fundamental change in something at the root-- in this case: society with the root being "patriarchy".

Certain types of feminists (gender egalitarians)

"Gender-egalitarian" is not a strain of feminism. Egalitarianism is a belief independent of feminism, not a sub-variant of feminism.

completely agree with a lot of the MRM issues,

I don't care if actual feminists feel alienated by the MRM.

You have a misconception about feminism.

I think you have that backwards; it seems it's you who has misconceptions about feminism.

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Title	Irony
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	108
Date	September 18, 2011 3:22 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/kjjsk/irony/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/irony.1034492 https://theredarchive.com/post/1034492

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