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My problem with the Menrights movement.

dwm1129

June 11, 2009

3 upvotes

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/r/MensRights/comments/8rr41/my_problem_with_the_menrights_movement/

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Post Information

Title	My problem with the Menrights movement.
Author	dwm1129
Upvotes	3
Comments	33
Date	June 11, 2009 6:59 PM UTC (17 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8rr41/my_problem_with_the_menrights_movement/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-problem-with-the-menrights-movement.1053825 https://theredarchive.com/post/1053825

Comments

[–]dwm1129[S] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago* (35 children) | Copy Link

I have been thinking about the MensRights movement for a few days and trying to figure out why it bothers me even though I believe we face many problems in society and that men are treated unfairly on many, many issues.

1.) I think alot of you of see problems men have and blame women for them. If you don't, that is the overall feeling people get. Who wants to get behind a movement that blames another group of people for their problems? The women bashing is very polarizing and you guys don't really seem any different than feminazis. Why don't you guys present yourselves as people who care and respect women and men and that the injustices that men face hurt everyone? I think you would draw more support that way.

2.) On reddit at least you come across as one of the most closed-minded groups, the movement as a whole hasn't achieved anything, yet despite that you guys are arrogant and any dissenting opinions/ideas that might help are blocked out.

3.) You guys seem to whine all the time about EVERYTHING. Anything and everything relating to something a women has done that is evil winds up on this subreddit, even when it has nothing to do with mensrights rights.

It seems like you are more concerned with villainizing women than with actually helping men. Everyone has men in their life that they love and care for, show that you care about society and women's rights and that when men are being treated unfairly it hurts everyone.

Just for curiosity, what are some issues that you guys think women still struggle with in our society? I know what problems you think men face today, how about women? The biggest problem I have with Mensrights is thinking that you guys don't care at all about women's rights.

Just my opinion.

[–]Kuonji 20 points21 points22 points 17 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

I respect what you are trying to accomplish, but..

Why don't you guys present yourselves as people who care and respect women and men and that the injustices that men face hurt everyone? I think you would draw more support that way.

The women's right movement never operated this way and they were quite successful.

On reddit at least you come across as one of the most closed-minded groups, the movement as a whole hasn't achieved anything, yet despite that you guys are arrogant and any dissenting opinions/ideas that might help are blocked out.

Links, please? I will fully debate any dissenting opinion and I remain open-minded about any subject in this regard. However don't confuse disagreement with 'blocking out' opinions.

You guys seem to whine all the time about EVERYTHING. Anything and everything relating to something a women has done that is evil winds up on this subreddit, even when it has nothing to do with mensrights rights.

The nature of the beast. Feminists and women's rights groups are exactly the same. As far as posting about 'women behaving badly', the reason those types of posts are popular is because there is the widespread notion that men are the violent ones, men are the ones that do the awful crimes, women deserve better treatment and lighter punishments (if at all) than men because they are 'the fairer sex'. In the majority of cases, the purpose of posting the article is to highlight the contrast between the way the perpetrator is treated or referred to compared to how they would be treated if they were male.

For example, if someone posted a link to a story about a woman who killed her husband and she was sentenced to 60 years for second degree murder (or whatever) and that was all the story was about, I would agree that it's just a woman bashing story. But what is more likely is that a story about a woman murdering her husband will be posted and she will have gotten acquitted or an extremely low sentence because of alleged abuse. No one is trying to say that she wasn't abused by her husband, but that even in cases where there is no corroborating evidence of this abuse, the murderer is free to go. So, no, stories aren't being posted about every woman who does every bad thing everywhere, they are posted for the specific reasons I mention above. At least most of the time they are.

It seems like you are more concerned with villainizing women than with actually helping men. Everyone has men in their life that they love and care for, show that you care about society and women's rights and that when men are being treated unfairly it hurts everyone.

Why does the men's rights movement have some sort of obligation to preface our points with explaining how we care about women's rights as well? The primary reason it's not done very often is not because we don't care about the rights of women, it's because the majority of us feel that the rights of women have a GLUT of representation already everywhere you look, and any more of it is completely unnecessary.

Just for curiosity, what are some issues that you guys think women still struggle with in our society? I know what problems you think men face today, how about women?

Problems that women face today in society? It's hard to say. Because every time I think I've found a problem that women are actively facing in society, I immediately think of several laws, acts, or lobby groups that have realized the problem long ago and have put measures in place to counteract these problems. But if I had to take a stab at it, I'd say that having to be held to what society thinks you should be, do, or act like is a problem women face. I can't say it's a problem that only women face, since men face a lot of this as well, but women certainly face it. In fact, any issue I can think of that women are currently facing in society has either already had movements made to eliminate it, or men face these problems as well. And when it is the latter, I tend to feel that now they are just 'problems that people face'.

The biggest problem I have with Mensrights is thinking that you guys don't care at all about women's rights.

I could quite easily waltz into any women's rights forum and say the same thing because very little (if any) of their content addresses mens rights.

Again, I appreciate the point you are trying to get across, but it doesn't really work.

[–]dwm1129[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 17 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Women's rights movements never had to operate that way, because society already viewed them as an oppressed group that needed liberation. Look at how men are viewed for the most part in society the idea of mensrights makes most people laugh, because it doesn't even cross their mind that men have these problems. I think this issue has to be approached from different perspective than other groups have approached theirs. It's a unique situation and I don't think it will be successful if it continues to be presented in the way it currently is. I think it has to be presented as a human rights problem without the emphasis on men for it to gain political traction.

I don't think you should need to preface all of your points with explaining about how you care about women's rights, but instead just concentrating on making this a human issue instead of a men issue will help garner more support. I just don't think people will rally behind the cause of the victimized male in US society even though it might be true in many ways.

[–]BestServedCold 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]theonusta 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The feminist movement was radical, but not really militant until the end of the second wave of feminism around the 1970's early 1980's. And even then it was a somewhat of a natural response to gaining a little bit of power and utilizing this to assuage the anger felt by many women over their previous oppression.

The second wave of feminism focused on legislative action to enact changes. Truth be told, they were NOT successful. We still do not earn the same wages for the same job, we still are held to rigid social/sexual roles that inhibit our ability to have both a family and a career, there is no amendment to the constitution to eliminate discrimination based on sex (unlike race, creed, or color), we still fight against sexual harassment, these all seem truly unjust to me.

Now with that being said, I do agree that the current wave (third wave) of feminism is not admitting that there are responsibilities that have to be shared in order for true equality to exist for both sexes. I'm encouraged by the dialogue opening around same sex couples, stay at home dads, and reproductive rights for both sexes. I feel these issues are forcing us to dialogue once more about equality of the sexes.

However, I must part ways there, because the idea that these women are spoiled and don't shoulder equal responsibilities plays right back into the same hand we've been fighting on both sides for years. It isn't that one sex shoulders more or less than the other. It is perhaps more true to say that both sexes have been held to different responsibilities.

[–]BestServedCold 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

First, welcome!

Let me admit, that a true student of the feminist movement and its history would destroy me debating the subtleties there because I don't know as much as I should.

And I must admit, when I think of TRULY militant radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin, that bears out what you're saying because she didn't really become notable until the late 70s I believe.

We still do not earn the same wages for the same job

A woman who has the same education, experience, no children, and is willing to do the same amount of hours, commuting, and relocating will make the same amount of money as a man in the same job. $1.00 for a $1.00. OR at least $0.99 for a $1.00 and I don't think you'll be able to hammer out that last penny for a generation or two until a new guard takes over.

we still are held to rigid social/sexual roles that inhibit our ability to have both a family and a career

Not only do I disagree, I would say men are victims here and women are not. A woman who wants to have a career? Great, good for you! Stay at home and raise a family? Great, good for you! A man who wants to stay at home and be a homemaker while his wife has a career? What the fuck is wrong with you!?

there is no amendment to the constitution to eliminate discrimination based on sex (unlike race, creed, or color)

See, you've just arrived and I'm learning. I would support that with you all the way. Is that the ERA amendment that got turned down (1983 and 1998 IIRC...)?

we still fight against sexual harassment

If by that definition, you mean "Sleep with me for a promotion", I'm with you. If by that definition, you mean "Three guys walk into a bar...", I'm not. I think the true victims of sexual harrassment have had their plight minimized by people, both men and women, making frivolous claims. I also don't know what more can be done about it. There are laws on the books preventing it.

It isn't that one sex shoulders more or less than the other. It is perhaps more true to say that both sexes have been held to different responsibilities.

A good point. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to compare anything women shoulder alone to selective service. Men dying a decade earlier. Men getting biased treatment by child custody courts. Men getting biased treatment in criminal courts.

Maybe it's a question of perception but male concerns seem more immediate and more serious.

[–]theonusta 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I was referring to the ERA that got shot down. The EEOC does protect against sex discrimination however and that is a blessing, but it's often not enforced due to the agency being overwhelmed and underfunded.

I'm not sure on the dollar for dollar. I've read that this may be true on a case to case comparison but that in actuality, because women tend to care for the children even though the man is able and capable, the effects of taking the day off to take the sick child to the doctor, picking up the kids from school, etc. lead to the 78 cents on the male dollar.

The social/sexual roles I was referring to are mostly between women with and without children. Women are seen as wanting children by employers even if they say otherwise. And women with children will NEVER in the life of their careers make as much or get promoted as highly as those women with no children. And women without children still don't go as far as a man. However I will acknowledge the double standard for men who want to stay at home. It's unfortunate because true equality should allow for either parent to be home with the child. But again that is the social constraint.

While men have MANY issues to contend with, so do women. Men's concerns only seem to be more immediate to you, because you are a man and feel their effects more rapidly, and more deeply than I do. In turn, I as a women feel my issues more deeply and quickly than you might as a man. They are my immediate reality. However we must NEVER loose sight of how interconnected our issues are. For without the women releasing power grips on our areas of control (custody, alimony, selective service--which disenfranchise men) we cannot dialogue about equality with the power that men traditionally hold (bread-winning, better pay, etc--which disenfranchise women). Without each of our movements working together, we are both lost.

[–]dwm1129[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 17 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Why is the men's movement not successful and the feminist movement was/is? The mensrights movement is all over the place, what are the specific goals you guys have? What specific laws do want changed? All other civil rights groups had very specific things they were fighting for. I think that may be another problem.

Men shoulder more responsibility in our society. Women want the same responsibility and equality, yet they will never receive it because men and women aren't equal. Which isn't bad we both (generally) do different things better, we both have different strengths. Women are never going to make up the majority of Congress or lead all of the fortune 500 companies. Men are never going to have equality in many of the places they want either. I think that's just the way things are in our society.

[–]AnnArchist 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd like to see alimony completely eliminated.

I'd like to see a fair division of property in divorce and fair child support claims.

I'd like to see the default be 50/50 split custody instead of full custody for the mom and dad gets the kids every other weekend.

I'd like to see women's named in the papers (this isn't law, just policy) in rape cases so other men can come forward and testify about her character (if she is a slut, the defendent should know this and be able to use this).

I'd like to see men not arrested by default during domestic disputes.

I'd like to see women in jail for drinking while pregnant (not everyone agrees here, but this is a mens rights issue because they then have to support a baby with birth defects)

I'd like to see more stay at home dads.

I'd like to see feminists give a shit about the problems men face.

[–]Little_Kitty 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]theonusta -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As a feminist who supports human rights, and gives a shit about the problems both sexes face:

Alimony can only be eliminated when women have equal ability to re-enter the workforce. This depends largely on the decision regarding custody as women with children earn 78% of what women without children earn, and that is only 78% of what a man would earn at the same job.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the division of property and child support payments. I think that any man fingered as the father of a child should be entitled to a paternity test. And any woman attempting to fraudulently use a man or the system for a quick buck should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

I disagree on rape cases. Unless you know of or have been raped yourself, it's hard to describe the pain and emotional stress involved in admitting what happened to yourself let alone the officers, the nurses, the rape kit. To have that then go public for whoever to counter your character because you wore a v-neck is too much. The utmost sensitivity should be used in those cases. And let us not forget that men can be and are raped too. However, men should be allowed to sue a women who has maliciously or intentionally tried to bring false accusations of rape against an innocent man.

Domestic violence should always be resolved through the police removing the instigator. And yes I agree that this should not be the man by default. I hope same sex unions will bring about more discussion of this issue.

I see things like women drinking or smoking while pregnant and I seriously consider instituting a license for having kids. But education, access to birth control and abortions are all options that need to be considered as well. Many women are stuck in pregnancies they don't want because of lack of access and education. Not that it is excusable, but we have to address underlying causes here in order to fix that.

Stay at home parents should be ideal. I think we need to put pressure on congress to legislate rules about discrimination based on parents with children. Also encouraging companies to be flexible with scheduled hours, working from home options, etc. It is in their benefit to have highly skilled, trained workers continuing to work for them from 7-3 or from home 2 days a week as opposed to re-hiring, re-training a new worker who can work their 9-5.

[–]BestServedCold 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women want the same responsibility and equality

They do? If you're saying YOU do, fine. But I have never heard the women's right movement or any of its leaders saying what you just said. They're all about rights and equality... just not equal responsibility.

Now, again, you might disagree with that and I'm sure there is a minority of feminists who agree. But a movement will always be judged by the actions and words of its leaders. Feminism has been led by women interested only in what they could take, NEVER what they could give.

Women are never going to make up the majority of Congress or lead all of the fortune 500 companies.

Wrong again. That day is coming soon at least for Congress. And ALL of the Fortune 500? How about 251? That day is also coming soon.

Men are never going to have equality in many of the places they want either.

Not for lack of a fight. I promise you that.

[–]AnnArchist 12 points13 points14 points 17 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]BestServedCold 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AnnArchist 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BestServedCold -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AnnArchist 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Streamwave 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points18 points 17 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

As an atheist, on many occasions I can't help but notice many similarities between what happens when you're a MRA speaking out against the excesses of feminism and when you're an atheist speaking out against religion/faith/whatever.

I think alot of you of see problems men have and blame women for them. If you don't, that is the overall feeling people get.

First, we don't blame "women", we blame Feminism for the excesses it committed in the attempt to leverage the game. Criticizing Feminism is not criticizing women. That's the first thing people need to realize.

What we say only feels like an attack on women because that's what Feminism programmed society to believe. Feminism = what's good for women, so if I criticize feminism I want women to go fuck themselves. That's absolutely not true.

Unfortunately, like religion, anything that goes even remotely against the creed of Feminism is perceived as a politically incorrect offense and immediately shuts people down.

Thus, as with the criticizing of religion, it is simply impossible to sugar-coat the message.

Who wants to get behind a movement that blames another group of people for their problems?

It seems you've missed quite a lot of your history classes. Feminism, Marxism, Nazism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, etc. If there's one thing that unites human race is that it always ready to unite against any perceived enemies.

I'm not saying that's a good strategy for the MRM, just showing how people work and your argument is… flawed, at best.

Point #2 is something to keep in mind.

You guys seem to whine all the time about EVERYTHING.

Of course we do. We are MEN. If we are not shutting the hell up and taking it like Proper Men must, we are automatically whining.

Anything and everything relating to something a women has done that is evil winds up on this subreddit, even when it has nothing to do with mensrights rights.

Have you ever really argued with someone of the general public about the double standards of the law and society, from the position of speaking out in favor of men? Of course not.

When you do, you will be surprised to find out that men, as a group, are perceived as mindless, violent, sex-addict animals, and women are the precious butterflies that try to escape their advances while being loving and trying to nurture everyone.

Good, noble men and vicious, vile women are the exception.

That is part of the root of what motivates the differentiated treatment we get – and it translates to gender-biased legislation and application of the law.

For example: All the impartial studies on Domestic Violence show that men and women are just as violent. However, when you think of DV you think of a man hitting a woman – and that's what legislation is passed to address.

All the impartial studies on Child Abuse show that female caretakers abuse children under their care much more than men. However, when you think of CA you think of a man abusing a child – and that's what legislation is passed to address.

Even people in politics don't seem to care about the statistics, and the general people cares even less. That's what the articles of Women Behaving Badly (WBB in this /r/), are supposed to address. It gives ammunition for us to use on debates, since people untrained in critical thinking are prone to give more credit to anecdotal evidence.

Perhaps, once they've heard of enough scare stories about how women can also be bad "just like men", they will start believing what the statistics have been saying all along.

Everyone has men in their life that they love and care for, show that you care about society and women's rights and that when men are being treated unfairly it hurts everyone.

That is a very leveled position and the path that one of the most prominent adovcates of the male plight in modern society, Warren Farrell, chose to take.

Once making frequent public appearances and contributions in the big media back when he was a member of the board of the National Organization for Women, the minute he decided to devote attention to the male side he was shunned from the media and haven't been invited to talk in any major media outlets since.

So, the soft and level-headed approach clearly didn't work. Perhaps we do need to get a little feminazi now, being more vocal and aggressive.

Later, when we will have already had it our way by throwing one half of society against the other, we can always just shrug and say "Oh, that was just in the old days. We know better than that now."

Seemed to work quite well for feminists.

[–]dwm1129[S] 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]marktully 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

What do you think of the idea that men and women are just different? That they will never be equal, women have things they excel in and men do as well.

That's just reality. However, like most folks engaged with "equality", feminists think acknowledging any kind of innate differences between groups of people will surely lead to discrimination.

But we don't need to be genetically equal to enforce equality. We just need to agree that it's in society's best interest to treat everyone as such, providing equality of opportunities – NOT of outcome – as much as possible.

What is the difference?

In equality of opportunities, there are no entry barriers. Men, women, white, black, etc; everyone is allowed to be and do whatever they want, and are only valued and judged within the scope of how their individual capabilities relate to what it is they want to do.

In equality of outcome, which is the current model, we impose fixed percentages of how many men, women, etc, are supposed to do what; and we discriminate people in order to achieve that.

Because, hey, if men and women are split 50-50, and everyone has to be equal, any field of interest that is not equally represented must be evidence of sexism. What do you mean girls and women don't want it? We must make them want it! Or they will be behind! And no one can be behind! Everyone is equal!

And so on…

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zaskoda 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]dwm1129[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 17 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zaskoda 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]dwm1129[S] -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BestServedCold 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

What issues do women face in today's society? Issues that men don't face in equal or greater numbers?

Nothing.

There is NOTHING that feminists can legitimately complain about anymore and when I have asked women on numerous occasions to explain what they have to bitch about, they fall back to plan B. Insults.

I know women complain about domestic violence. Many women mistakenly believe that they are the victim more often than men. What I DON'T hear, at least not very often is "feminists" decrying female-on-male violence. It is still very acceptable.

I know women complain about the glass ceiling and the wage gap. I think these women might have fallen out of a time machine. There is no glass ceiling and there is no wage gap. Women with equal education, equal experience, no children and a willingness to work the same hours as a man will be paid the same as a man. PERIOD. If anyone wants to argue that, find a present day example.

Since men are 93% of employees killed on the job, it doesn't sadden me if the average man makes more money than the average woman. But on a job-for-job basis, less pay for the same work? Prove it.

I would say women are 75% of our problem and misandrist retard men who have self-loathing issues are the other 25%.

We need more men to wake up and realize how badly we are being shortchanged across the gamut socially and culturally. And slowly but surely, they are.

[–]redditbannedmeagain 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BestServedCold 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Jerph 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BestServedCold 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You've made half of my argument for me.

Why do we half to dissect violent crime and find a special little subset where women are victimized more? When you have to go looking to find where you're being victimized, it's tougher for me to drudge up some sympathy for you when men are being victimized everywhere.

But here's the important part. Women being victims of sexual assaults is as irrelevant as men being the victim of more violent crime overall. Why? Because it isn't societal or institutionalized.

If women wanted to blame sexual assault on men at large (already a ridiculous assertion) then what do they propose we do about it? It's already illegal. We already give women vastly superior treatment in the criminal courts.

When you're coming up with your laundry list of gender inequities, I'm really only interested in the ones where there is a identifiable cause and a rectifiable solution.

[–]tomek77 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link