Steelman a feminist argument

mikesteane · 2022-03-03T07:42:37+00:00

wage gap: since women earn less than men over a lifetime, there must be something oppressing them and redress is needed.

gender theory: 1. gender is a social construct not determined by biology or 2. gender is a choice

patriarchy: there exists a secret ruling body whose function is to privilege men over women and they will do this even at the expense of profits because they will pay 40% extra for work just to have it done by a man.

favorite feminist argument: you're an incel. If someone cannot see that we are right, they must be socially inept and incapable of finding a partner.

maxlvb · 2022-03-03T06:55:09+00:00

Some reasons why this logical approach to 'debating' with feminists so often fails:

Feminists: Stop quoting facts! (it shows their ignorance)
Feminists: A guy disagreed with me once... This is why I need feminism. He shouldn't be able to do that!

Fact: A Harvard Medical school study showed that 70% of women were responsible for domestic violence...

Femists: YOUHATE WOMEN!!! YOU"RE AN INCEL!!!

Feminists: "Feminism is for men too!"

Men: Okay, well as men here's what we struggle with.

Feminists: "Not everything needs to be about men, alright? Besides, solving women's issues will solve men's issues."

Men: Okay, but what about all these men's issues that aren't linked to women's issues?

Feminists: "Then make your own group and stop whining! God, men can be so fragile."

Men: Okay, here's this group we made. We're gonna assemble and talk about men's issues.

Feminists: "Misogynists! You just want to hate on women! If you really cared about equality you'd be feminists!"

Men need feminism like bicycles need fish.

TAPriceCTR · 2022-03-03T05:59:35+00:00

Antifeminist are better versed with feminist doctrines than feminists are. Feminists are CONSTANTLY no_true_scottsmaning their academic and political leaders.

arrouk · 2022-03-03T13:02:33+00:00

Wage gap is easy tbh. Only men are stupid enough to sacrifice their entire life for work. That's how all the fortune 500 companies have males running them and why men get paid more.

That and if you split it down to an $/hour figure women come out on top.

thatspositive · 2022-03-03T16:40:07+00:00

What's there to steelman? It seems like you just want me to say stuff that you agree with. Are you willing to steelman anti-feminist arguments, or is this just going to be a one-sided thing where you're the judge?

BrokenDeity1 · 2022-03-04T01:47:15+00:00

Feminism is a fraud and a hate movement built on a foundation of lies.

If a feminist tells you the sky is blue look outside and if it is blue, assume you've gone colorblind and that the sky is really red.

tired_hillbilly · 2022-03-03T04:57:48+00:00

I think I can do wage gap.

The highest paying careers are male-dominated. Yes, the few women in these careers are paid fairly, but women in general are mostly kept out of these careers because the education system leading to these careers, and the hiring process for these careers are biased against women.

For careers that are high paying and male-dominated because they are physically demanding, men would benefit as well if they were modified to be more accommodating for women as well. I imagine fewer men would get mangled in logging accidents if technology and policies could be implemented to make the job less physically demanding. They would also do less damage to their bodies; even if they're not maimed in an accident, blue-collar workers often end up with crippling chronic pain issues from working long, hard hours. So making these jobs less physically demanding would enable women to do them AND benefit men as well.

To be clear, I don't believe the first paragraph, just playing devil's advocate. Second one seems reasonable though.

LucasAngel_ · 2022-03-03T18:05:27+00:00

This one is easy, cuz I actually believe this.

Intersectionality isn't divisive. It adds nuance the various conditions of people in their identities. It is not hierarchical, it's not meant to be. It is an analysis in how your varying identities interact with each other in the eyes of self, others, and society.

Unfortunately victim centered people tend to misunderstand how identity works within it.

I'll use Intersectionality in the context of Men's issues. Black Men and Black Women experience racism very differently. Anti-Black Male rhetoric is caked with androphobic ideas of us being violent, criminal, and sexually aggressive. For this reason Anti-Black Racism tends to be more overtly violent against Men than Women.

Another example. Homosexual and Bisexual Men are generally assumed to be more readily accepted by society when they assimilate into masculinity. This is complicated and leans on untrue. Feminine Gay Men are treated differently, but not better nor worse. Feminine Gay Men tend to be seen as inferior men and people view them as weak. They are also not seen as physical threats unlike Masculine Gay Men who are treated as predators (a common Androphobic trope) and as self hating simply for not fitting into the "correct" box.

Intersectionality isn't designed to pit us against one another. It does however undermine the idea of a universal manhood or universal womanhood that is prevalent in MRA and Feminist circles. I am a Black Gay Man, my experience is very different from many in this subreddit and I tend to experience androphobia and misandry very differently. More often then not the androphobia I experience is inseparable from my ethnic and sexual identity.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2022-03-04T10:41:14+00:00

I have heard the following definitions of "Patriarchy."

A society in which the positions of power in formal/official organizations are generally held by men.
A society in which social norms are constructed by men, to advantage men (collectively) over women (collectively).
A society in which the (as traditionally defined) masculine is generally considered superior to the (as traditionally defined) feminine.
A society in which men/maleness is considered the norm/default and females/femaleness is considered the other/special.

I've also heard the following definitions of "Rape Culture."

A culture wherein which rape is accepted as a way to threaten/control/punish women.
Aspects of culture (such as social habits, routines, tropes, expectations) that make it more likely for a rape to occur (even if unintentionally).
Aspects of culture which make it easier for rapists to get away with rapes.

I'm willing to discuss any of these particular concepts. I'd contest some of them, and agree with others (with provisos in some cases).

delocalelectron · 2022-03-03T07:07:42+00:00

The Gender Pay Gap is a deficit in average female lifetime earnings, arising solely through their preference for less physically and mentally demanding, less stressful employment, often part-time after having children.... a female choice which is usually denied the male after those children arrive. It's illegal to pay a woman less for the same work, and has been since the Equal Pay Act. So - how do they intend to 'close' this gap? By paying themselves more than men, and making women even more equal? It's nuts. Knock the ball back into their court, ask how they would address the (non) issue of the 'Gender Pay Gap'. If it's going to be all about making it even easier for women to earn more than men, there will, eventually be repercussions. When women earn more than men, it weakens men's contribution to the community, and promotes more anti-social ways of confirming masculinity. A man's money is comparatively social affirmative, more likely to be spent on a family than on Gucci accessories.

Women are happy to make equal pay for equal work, so how about equal social responsibility? If women were really into this 'equality' they are always trumpeting about, every man would have an equal chance when he tried to chat up a woman in the supermodel bracket. Why should we have to do all the chasing in the first place, leaving ourselves open to sexual harassment charges if we don't have the bone structure of Brad Pitt and the wallet of Bill Gates? How about they use some of that equal pay, dig deep into the Chanel handbag and buy us a drink, ask us about our day? Not gonna happen, is it? Instead, every quota hiring of a woman has the potential to deny a man a job, making it more difficult for that man to attract a woman, have a relationship and maybe start a family. But, we all know how that mostly ends these days, anyway.

Whether we like it or not, a job forms a central part of the sexual constitution. Historically, it confirmed the masculine identity of the main earner, and it's vital to understand the sexual role of money. Any attempts to redress a (non-existent) Gender Pay Gap are simply means to keep the price of sex high, and to castrate men even more than has already been achieved. And the sum total of those achievements in the female sphere? It's now sooo difficult to attract the right man, and the empowered girls can look forward to a future of wine boxes, cat litter, and box sets of 'Friends'. The one where they blew it.

Chinny_YT · 2022-03-03T04:33:23+00:00

Something wrong is that you state "anti feminist" assuming this subreddit is all anti feminist. Had you understood us, you would understand that Men's rights are true feminists.

But anyway, most of the time things are just flat out wrong like the wage gap is literally an earnings gap

thatspositive · 2022-03-03T05:18:28+00:00

The gender pay is HIGHLY misleading. The overall numbers are comparing make dominated field like engineers, to female dominated fields like social workers and teachers.

It also ignores that, generally speaking, men and women have different motivations at work. Men are raised being told their value is based on their income potential. Many women want men who make a lot of money. It’s also far more common for men to be the bread winner, than women. So men are pushed to get higher paying jobs, and once they’re in the jobs, to work hard and stand out to get promoted and raises. Women on the other hand don’t have the social pressure to be high earners and gravitate towards jobs they feel are more fulfilling. When they’re at work, most women tend to try to be a cohesive team member rather than rock the boat to get ahead.

Lastly, the statistics on salary are that 50% of men negotiate starting salary. That’s compared to 5% for women. That increase in salary is then the starting block for raises, and a factor in negotiating your promotion pay. We studied this in my MBA program.

The reality is, given the statistics, the gap should be much higher.

TrilIias · 2022-03-03T05:27:23+00:00

As far as the wage gap, research shows that even when you control for all the variables, a wage gap persists. No it isn't as large as the 20% gap often cited, it's usually around 5%, but that's still significant.

For example, Glassdoor has produced two studies, one in 2016 (Demystifying the Gender Pay Gap: Evidence from Glassdoor Salary Data) and another in 2019 (Progress on the Gender Pay Gap). They both controlled for the variables, they weren't just averages of all of men's and women's earnings, and they found about a 5% adjusted wage gap.

Also consider a study from the AAUW called Graduating to a Pay Gap. This study first looked at men and women in the same major one year after graduation, but also controlled for other relevant variables. Even after controlling for all these factors, it still finds about a 7% adjusted wage gap that cannot be explained by things like college major, type of institution, hours worked, or economic sector.

Furthermore, The Gender Wage Gap: Extent, Trends, and Explanations, by Blau and Kahn is a detailed study that also found a persistent 8% gap even after controlling for things like hours, education, experience, race, religion, metro residence, industry, occupation, and collective bargaining.

Anti-feminists like to act like controlling for all the variables makes the wage gap disappear, but it doesn't and research proves it.

Okay so all of that was BS. In the last post I made I explained how these and other commonly cited studies are methodologically flawed and why they do not support the conclusions typically drawn from them. When I first read some of these studies, it initially made me pause and think that I may have been incorrect about the wage gap and that it might be real, but a little more close reading proved that to not be the case. I love this exercise and I wish people did this sort of thing more often.

alclarkey · 2022-03-03T21:39:00+00:00

I will grant that being hit on constantly while walking down the street can be pretty tiresome, and even more so when the idiot has no social intelligence and can't take no for answer, and can't tell when a woman is most definitely not interested.

delocalelectron · 2022-03-08T08:21:57+00:00

Here's two for the price of one. The 'Gender Doesn't Exist' Pay Gap.

Title	Steelman a feminist argument
Author	thatspositive
Upvotes	0
Comments	51
Date	March 3, 2022 4:29 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t5j4tx/steelman_a_feminist_argument/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/steelman-a-feminist-argument.1104392 https://theredarchive.com/post/1104392

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