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Ads Feature Messages from Men Who Took Their Own Lives

PeonSupreme

March 30, 2022
184 upvotes
/r/MensRights
https://www.adweek.com/creativity/suicide-prevention-ads-feature-messages-from-men-who-took-their-own-lives/
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Title Ads Feature Messages from Men Who Took Their Own Lives
Author

PeonSupreme

Upvotes 184
Comments 40
Date March 30, 2022 11:22 PM UTC
(4 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tsm55z/ads_feature_messages_from_men_who_took_their_own/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/ads-feature-messages-from-men-who-took-their-own.1109358
https://theredarchive.com/post/1109358
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Comments

[–]rabel111 87 points88 points89 points 4 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

These last words are so indicative of male suicide, protecting loved ones from the dispair that racks their hearts, sendiing their love, because it's all they have left.

But, the good intentions of this initiative are wasted, as the authors blame men for their suicide. It's clear from the great work of Dr John Barry, Dr Zac Seidler, Drs James Smith, Annette Braunack-Mayer and Gary Wittert, Prof John McDonald and others, that men want to talk about their feelings and troubles, seek out help, and do talk when they are offered appropriate services and are LISTENED TO.

Too often, the failings of mental health and anti-suicide services/innitiatives are hiden behind a veil of man blaming based on feminist ideological framing of masculinity and pathetic shallow stereotypes of male behaviour. When anyone takes the time to listen, they find that men are more complex and nuanced, have real life reasons for their dispair, and are searching for someone who will listen to their story.

Every time I hear of a new service or initiative, and they are few, small and grossly underfunded, I search their methodology for the man blaming, and it's always prominant! Why?

[–]Oncefa2 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

It's clear from the great work of Dr John Barry, Dr Zac Seidler, Drs James Smith, Annette Braunack-Mayer and Gary Wittert, Prof John McDonald and others, that men want to talk about their feelings and troubles, seek out help, and do talk when they are offered appropriate services and are LISTENED TO.

Just so you know, some of these same people are behind this initiative.

It's a UK organization that appears to have ties with the male psychology network, or is at least based on some of the same research that you're talking about.

In particular, Barry is referenced a few times on their website, Seager authored a couple blog pieces, and The Palgrave Handbook of Male Psychology and Mental Health is referenced as foundational in their outlook and work.

I'm just as big of a cynic as you and I know just as well that what you're talking about is a problem.

But I think you've jumped the gun a bit here.

Being that it is a PR effort, they're looking for impact, so the message may be simplified a bit, but I don't think it's inherently bad.

Also, "pretending that nothing is wrong" is very common in the last few days when someone is planning a suicide. This is true for both men and women and may not reflect earlier help seeking behaviors. Some survivors have said that it happens once their mind is fully made up to go through with it, and that it offers some sort of relief to stop mentally fighting it. In that context, if you know that someone used to be struggling but now they suddenly seem 100% fine, that can be interpreted as a warning sign. The fact that these ads are a call on other people to help, and not for the victim to take responsibility for their own help, makes me think that this is the angle of it, and not toxic masculinity (although I can see how it would be easy to see interpret it the other way).

[–]rabel111 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

See response above and links.

[–]Oncefa2 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I did some more reading on their website and see what you're talking about.

They say that they're interested in the diversity of the male experience and are against making sweeping generalizations about men, but then they go on to talk about what masculinity is (including the hegemonic or "dominance" view), which to me seems to go against those stated purposes.

Interestingly enough, the director of this group co-authored two chapters from the Palgrave Handbook of Male Psychology and Mental Health, which spends a great deal of time talking about how inadequate the hegemonic view of masculinity is.

I actually recognized some of the content on the website as being "lifted" from the chapter about positive masculinity, which was written by Seager and Barry (one of the people you mentioned in your original post). But I don't see any of the criticisms that they offered against hegemonic / toxic masculinity there. It could be that they are simply describing the existing literature and withholding their opinion, but I feel like they could, at the very least, say something like, "we need to expand on old theories and develop new ones to better match the experiences of men..."

Maybe we could write to the organization about some of our concerns. I feel like they would listen.

[–]rabel111 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's subtle isn't it. I believe they are of good intention, and moving in the right direction, but given the academic literature is so littered with the "masculinities" narrative, they are having difficulty letting it go.

Having said that, there may be a place for the theory of "masculinities" in academic discourse on men, given diversity is otherwise poor covered, and it does address a move away from a heterogenerous ideal of masculinity that excludes the broad spectrum of men's experiences.

Writing to them could be a positive move. I could put something together, but feel that I need to know more about "hegemonic masculinities" theory and application in clinical practice before I do. Are you up-to-date on these ideas? Or just passionate like me?

[–]Oncefa2 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure how involved Dr Martin Seager is with the project, or if they just tacked him on because they needed more than one "masculinity" to turn that section into "masculinities", but he wrote that,

"[Hegemonic masculinity] does not meet standards of empirical science and can be refuted not only with international empirical research (e.g. Stoet and Geary 2019), but with a substantial body of other evidence, much of which is already common knowledge"

He then had 10 bullet points covering 3 pages worth of material debunking the concept (this is after spending more than 4 pages criticizing toxic masculinity as unscientific).

He also made the point that toxic masculinity, hegemonic masculinity, and traditional masculinity seem to get lumped together to mean the same thing, and that some analysis of traditional masculinity shows it to be a good thing, not a bad thing.

This is from The Palgrave Handbook of Male Psychology and Mental Health, a book that Dr Luke Sullivan (the director of MMM) is a co-author on. He has included this book as an important resource on the website.

There's also a really good description of traditional masculinity in another book, Men’s Issues and Men’s Mental Health: An Introductory Primer. In it, traditional masculinity is argued to be beneficial, especially for men, and this is backed by scientifc research. Traditional masculine ideals increased mental resilience and is important for child care.

At one point in the book he says something like, the problem of male mental health is too little masculinity, not too much masculinity, and that popular views about traditional masculinity are unscientific.

I actually think if they're trying to talk about multiple masculinities, then that research should be on there as a counter to hegemonic masculinity in it's own section titled just "traditional masculinity". In a way you could think of it as men "reclaiming" masculinity for themselves (I do not see masculinity, traditional or otherwise, as being based around dominance, and I doubt many other men do, either... It really seems pretty rudimentary, and actually kind of offensive, to boil masculinity down to just that one idea).

[–]NoLettuce7713 21 points22 points23 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

the authors blame men for their suicide

I don't blame you for being sceptical, but this initiative doesn't seem too bad.

In the article: "Our model explains suicidality at the individual psychological level."

Their website does have a section about masculinities, but it's not obvious to me that they are blaming men. They even avoid the dreaded TM term.

They have a section on how to have a conversation which seems in line with the advice I've seen connected with experts like Dr Zac Seidler.

[–]shit-zen-giggles 17 points18 points19 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Our model explains suicidality at the individual psychological level.

Never the less, I think it was an Australian study that showed that 80% of men who commited suicide where in contact with help services within months before their suicide.

So, it's not just the individual level but also the systemic dysfunction of feminism infused psychology.

So I think it's a step in the right direction which I appreciate very much.

[–]rabel111 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

While the price of being able to secure funding for research in men's mental health and suicidality is paying tribute to the "masculinities" construct, any initiative that focuses more on masculinities than the stories of men, are ideologically driven. This initiative is better than most, but still perpetuates the idea that men's lived experience can be explained and targeted by ideological constructs originating from modern gender studies (feminism). We have to call out that obsurdity in all discussions, even discussions about good, well intentioned works.

Try watching this podcast of the AMHF Men's Connect Conference where Zac Seidler pushes the idea that men do seek help and therefore we should be shaping services to listen to men, and the pushback he receives from government funded feminist academics who are receiving $millions to address male suicide, and still blame masculinity for their own failures.

https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/ws1JCYW8ZKU0wpyjf0Oa4O?domain=amhf.lt.acemlna.com

https://youtu.be/b07sHjqM83U

[+]GiantDairy -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is to blame for men’s suicide. Yeah bro, yeah.

[–]NoLettuce7713 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

What a pointless comment. You can't complain about subs like this lacking nuance and then dismiss nuanced arguments when they are actually made.

[+]GiantDairy -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is in NO WAY responsible for men’s suicides.

[–]NoLettuce7713 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

FFS did you even read the comment? No one in this thread is claiming that feminism is the cause of male suicide.

The argument being made is that certain approaches to men's mental health are overly influenced by feminist ideas around masculinity, which limits their effectiveness at stemming male suicide.

[+]GiantDairy -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

How is that not blaming feminism for men’s suicides?

[–]NoLettuce7713 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

The effectiveness of initiatives for men's mental health is jeapordised by all sorts of different things. This is not the same as blaming those things for suicides in the first place.

[+]GiantDairy 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

How does feminism “jeopardize” men’s mental health?

[–]NoLettuce7713 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

You can read this comment for an explanation of the argument.

[+]GiantDairy 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

What? That doesn’t explain anything. It sounds like he’s saying don’t think about gender because feminists do that? What?

This explains literally nothing.

[–]rabel111 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Not really. But feminism is actively pushing for the misdirection of mainstream initiatives, and many community initiatives aimed to help men, as well as the massive underfunding of men's mental health. Feminism is aggressively attempting to monopolise gender studies, silence male voices and enforce feminist ideologically based social norms.

[+]GiantDairy -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Where? How exactly is feminism doing these things? Whose voices are being “silenced”? Aren’t you speaking publicly right now?

[–]Oncefa2 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Well when Dr Warren Farrell went to the University of Toronto to discuss mental health problems with the Men's Issues Society, there were vapid protests from feminists where they blocked entrances and yelled patriarchy and rapist at the people trying to attend...

[–]GiantDairy -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

LOL. Poor babies. Did you also feel bad for Jordan Peterson when they kept glueing his door shut?

Let me counter with a question: how do you feel about incel ideas and culture?

[–]Oncefa2 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Are you a feminist?

Because right now what you are doing is attempting to silence a group of men talking about their mental health.

You have identified a problem and then become part of that problem yourself.

And trust me, many people have recognized this pattern of hypocrisy, and we are fed up with it.

[T]here have been many well-documented cases where men and women have attempted to organize discussions about issues affecting men’s mental health on campus, but these are met with hostility and vandalism. For example, a group of male and female students at Ryerson University (Canada) created a men’s issues group, where men's mental health was a core theme. This group was regularly refused official status by the Ryerson University Student Union (Csanady, 2016). A similar phenomenon occurred at Durham University (the United Kingdom) where a men’s issue group has been denied official recognition for many years (Daubney, 2015). Likewise, the University of Toronto Men's Issues Society invited renowned scholar Dr. Warren Farrell to talk about men’s mental health, but his lecture was met with protests and vandalism by demonstrators (Smeenk, 2012).

This creates a paradoxical situation, which has been labeled the men’s mental health double-bind (Whitley, 2019). It is often said that silence is detrimental to men’s mental health, and there are frequent calls on social media and elsewhere for men to “talk more” and “open-up” about their mental health (see Chap. 1). But attempts to discuss men’s issues can face obstruction and hostility, and men are often facing local situations where they are being implicitly told to shut-up, “check their privilege,” and talk less.

An example of the men’s mental health double-bind comes (somewhat paradoxically) from the world of academic psychology. In the United Kingdom, several leading psychologists recently formed a male psychology group offering public lectures, a website, a newsletter, and a social space to discuss men’s mental health. As the group grew, the leadership applied for the group to be recognized as an official section of the British Psychological Society (BPS), which would require a vote from the whole BPS membership. Bizarrely, this application was opposed by an organized group with its own dedicated website entitled “no to male psychology,” which campaigned for a no vote. In the resultant ballot, over 4000 BPS members voted, with two-thirds voting in favour of the new section (Male Psychology Network, 2019). This was welcome news for all who care about men’s mental health, but it cannot go unnoticed that around one in three BPS members (who voted) did not want a male psychology section. The negative messages underlying this double-bind are reliant on the biases and stereotypes discussed in Chapt. 1 and throughout this book and must be addressed as part of any paradigm shift in men’s mental health.

Whitley, R. (2021). Men’s Issues and Men’s Mental Health: An Introductory Primer. Springer, Cham.

https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-86320-3

[–]GiantDairy -3 points-2 points-1 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Of course I’m a feminist!

This right wing bullshit you posted is just that. Again you fail to articulate what “men’s issues” really are. Can there be a “men’s rights” without anti-feminism? This sub is absolutely OBSESSED with feminism for example.

There is a fluid line between the redpill and the “blackpill”. There are incels who started with “men’s rights”. It’s dangerous bullshit and it only exists as a backlash to feminism.

[–]Oncefa2 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

None of this is right-wing and our only problem with feminism is the radicals.

FYI Warren Farrell is a second wave (non-radical) feminist.

Many second wave feminists are / were men's rights advocates.

They saw feminism as being a necessary and logical part of men's rights.

In fact the current men's rights movement is in many ways just an offshoot of second wave feminism, back when feminism was supposed to be about gender equality for both genders.

The splinter happened when that stopped being true.

What you are is very likely a fourth wave (radical) feminist.

So maybe you ought to do some research or introspection on this topic because you are betraying the heritage of the movement you claim to be a part of.

[–]GiantDairy 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

LOL.

So when exactly did this “change” take place? What happened to prompt it?

Are you taking social media posts by 15 year olds to be feminist doctrine?

[–]llaurentz 49 points50 points51 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

'All good, just going for a walk' :(

[–]shit-zen-giggles 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What would you expect him to say?

At this point he has already made the decission and just wants to follow through on it without being held back.

[–]WolfeBane84 9 points10 points11 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To not reply or with a sudden outburst of “I love you” sentiments

[–]Ender01o 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

sad..

[–]Dukunt2 50 points51 points52 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Reminder that one in four suicides are women!

/s

[–]auMatech 23 points24 points25 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

AnD wOmEn AtTeMpT iT mOrE tOo!!!

[–]Zinziberruderalis 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They really should focus more on teaching girls the whole mortality thing, how that works.

[–]TitanicPat 23 points24 points25 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am absolutely shattered by two things.

How shockingly little attention is given to a crisis so prevalent.

And how very simple it has been to control and maintain that apathy with victim blaming and buzzwords.

[–]Shadowdragon409 13 points14 points15 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Reading the images of the ads was incredibly sad ;-;

Especially the one labeled "dad". I'm pretty sure that was a father being robbed of his money b/c of child support. His kid wanted to come see him, but because he didn't have any money, she couldn't.

[–]auMatech 12 points13 points14 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Raising awareness is great. The next step is to reform the necessary services to actually provide help to people struggling with suicidal thoughts instead of turning them away or dismissing their thoughts and feelings.

[–]CaptBerlin 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Breaks my heart 😕

[–]Asrealasrealcanbe 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it wont work ive been complaining about depression for a long long time and nobody cares. health professionals included. just get put on waiting list and never even actually see anyone. pretty sure i'll end up topping myself someday. members of FDS probably laugh at these. cruel world

[–]ElectricalTrash404 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know what my friends last words were, but I know he was a vet who came home and was misunderstood, never allowed to be masculine, never allowed to be a man, he drowned his sorrow in alcohol and it took his own life. At the funeral his mother cried and looked at me and asked "why.. how could this happen?.." and I had no answer, I couldn't verbalize to her that he had been betrayed by his own society. A society that didn't want men anymore, a society that decided we were monsters and that every disgusting perverted monstrosity that belongs locked in a dark closet was somehow better. A society that killed God and made moneywhores, pimps, jezebels, and criminals the new heroes. Well it's best left unsaid. Until God strikes down this wicked generation I hope we can live out the rest of our days in peace and extract ourselves as best we can from the filth of Babylon.

[–]ninodelumbre -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If I was in their shoes, I probably would've done the same. I hope a better place awaits these men.

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