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Sweden Ditched "Feminist Foreign Policy." Time for "Fair Foreign Policy"?

shit-zen-giggles

November 24, 2022
82 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
https://web.archive.org/web/20221114143802/https://www.newsweek.com/sweden-ditched-feminist-foreign-policy-it-time-fair-foreign-policy-opinion-1758462
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Title Sweden Ditched "Feminist Foreign Policy." Time for "Fair Foreign Policy"?
Author

shit-zen-giggles

Upvotes 82
Comments 26
Date November 24, 2022 9:00 PM UTC
(3 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/z3uhmh/sweden_ditched_feminist_foreign_policy_time_for/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/sweden-ditched-feminist-foreign-policy-time-for.1141980
https://theredarchive.com/post/1141980
Red Pill terms in post
feminist
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Comments

[–]HotStreak73 33 points34 points35 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure some feminist is gonna use this as an example of patriarchy somehow

[–]shit-zen-giggles[S] 27 points28 points29 points 3 years ago* (28 children) | Copy Link

From the article:

In 2014, Sweden launched "feminist foreign policy" to much fanfare. Intended to examine gendered problems and responses, and strengthen foreign policy decisions by centering women's and girls' perspectives, realities and challenges, the approach appeared promising. Other countries followed suit: Canada, Luxembourg, France, Mexico, Spain, Libya, Germany and as recently as September 2022, Colombia.

On Oct. 18, 2022, Sweden abruptly abandoned this approach, with the new government calling the "feminist" label counterproductive.

Today, there is still no consensus on how to define feminist foreign policy. There are no cross-country comparisons of impact. Differing interpretations have resulted in frictions between governments and civil society. Aside from conceptual difficulties and uncertain impact on foreign policy, we posit that feminist foreign policy has four deep flaws that greatly limit its potential.

In a 2020 survey about Canada's Feminist International Assistance Policy, more than 50 percent of respondents believed feminism, gender equality and/or programs on women's empowerment did not benefit women and instead undermined men and boys.

This BBC article about the topic has the following quote:

But the Swedish Gender Equality Minister Paulina Brandberg, from the Liberal party which has previously supported a "feminist foreign policy", said that "so long" as she remains in post she will "make sure the government's policies are feminist".

The liberal party is part of the current right wing government that supposedly (?) 'ditched' the feminist foreign policy.

Questions I'd like to discuss:

  • Do you think this will be more of a 'rebranding' aka ditching the label or is there going to be a genuine shift to be more inclusive and fair with respect to contents?

  • Do you think that the 'intersectional' approach the writers of the article propose has merit or is it going to be just a facade?

[–]AvoidPinkHairHippos 30 points31 points32 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

In a 2020 survey about Canada's Feminist International Assistance Policy, more than 50 percent of respondents believed feminism, gender equality and/or programs on women's empowerment did not benefit women and instead undermined men and boys.

It's a relief to discover the Canadian society is not as misandrist as they say

[–]thithothith 10 points11 points12 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

with gender equality thrown in there, they might just be very conservative. Would be great if they didn't assume gender equality and feminism were synonymous, so maybe they could have gotten some actually useful data

[–]AvoidPinkHairHippos 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's my hobby: engage Redditors who are leaning towards that myth, and I try to nudge them towards our side using evidence and reason

I've had occasional success and it makes my day

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This quote from the referenced paper is great!

if the women are like “men we got this, we are going [to] make this happen without you” it doesn’t go so far, they will achieve some things, but they may be shut down by men. So, I feel, let’s just work together as much as we need to really lift the woman in Kenya. Let’s also try to involve the men so that they feel like they are also involved in this.

While the fringes of western feminism are straight-up misandry, Kenya recognizes the need for equality cannot come via exclusion and discrimination.

This brings up another point regarding feminist foreign policies: are we not doing that horribly western thing of assuming our policies are unquestionably good and therefore must be imposed on populations and cultures around the world?

[–]IgnatiusBSamson 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

I think anyone who takes the rhetoric of a majority-fascist parliament (which Sweden now has) is naive. The fascist never uses language responsibly.

[–]shit-zen-giggles[S] 18 points19 points20 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

How is the Swedish parliament now 'majority facist'?

I know that Sweden Democrats are bad and that they are the 2nd largest party but how does that make the parliament 'majority facist'? Is everyone on the right a facist? Or do they become facist by cooperating with SD?

I genuinely want to understand you position. Thanks for elaborating

[–]IgnatiusBSamson 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

do they become fascist by cooperating with the SD

Yes. And unless I’m misreading or my news sources are mistaken, they’re the largest single party, not the second-largest.

Do you remember a few days ago, where Giorgia Meloni “exposed” the colonial dollar foisted upon Africans in France’s colonies, and its ability to economically enslave them? It’s an unequivocally true argument, bewitching in its frankness, and everyone was taken in by it.

Then BAM, she hits the second half of the speech, where she says the colonial franc is a good idea and Italy would do well to emulate it. That’s a fascist co-optation of rational and even left-wing talking points. Same as Hitler’s Nazi Party calling itself the NSDAP.

Never trust right-wingers when they claim to be doing something for men. It’s a ruse.

[–]Yamikama 20 points21 points22 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus. I know this is a left-wing male advocacy sub, but can we please just actually focus on the male advocacy and not stupid tribalism?

Not everything right-wingers do is a ruse designed to trick us. Right-wingers are people too.

[–]shit-zen-giggles[S] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And unless I’m misreading or my news sources are mistaken, they’re the largest single party, not the second-largest.

That is false. The are the 2nd largest party with 73 seats. The largest party are the social democrats with 107 seats

Government (103)

 Moderate Party (68) Christian Democrats (19) Liberals (16) 

Confidence and supply (73)

 Sweden Democrats (73) 

Opposition (173)

 Social Democrats (107) Left Party (24) Centre Party (24) Green Party (18) 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riksdag

[–]AvoidPinkHairHippos 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Give us examples of what makes them majority fascists

[–]IgnatiusBSamson 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

“The party has been characterized as national-conservative, anti-immigration, anti-Islam, Euroskeptic, and far-right...founded in 1988, the Sweden Democrats had its roots in Swedish fascism as well as white nationalism.”

“ In 2017, members of the Sweden Democrats' leadership defended comments made by then US President Donald Trump in response to Trump's assertion that Sweden's migration and asylum policies had led to a rise of terrorism and crime in Sweden.”

“The SD wants European governments to construct a security wall along the European border with Turkey in response to illegal immigration, terrorism and incursions by the Grey Wolves into Greece.”

“The Sweden Democrats are supportive of Israel and favors recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital and proposes moving the Swedish embassy there.”

“The Sweden Democrats advocates a cultural policy that would strip funding for multicultural initiatives and strengthen support for traditional Swedish culture. “

“The Sweden Democrats also support a ban on the burqa and niqab in public places... The SD also want Swedish to remain Sweden's sole official language in state funded schools, government agencies and public funded media.[169] It also supports prohibiting the hijab in primary schools.”

“argue that welfare should be restricted to Swedish citizens and permanent residents.”

“SD has been critical of adoption and artificial insemination for same-sex couples and polyamorous people.”

“The Sweden Democrats support generally increased minimum sentences as well as increased resources and personnel for the police. SD wishes to instate the possibility of life imprisonment without parole for the worst crimes and to repatriate foreign citizens found guilty of serious crimes.”

“The party is a supporter of the Swedish monarchy playing a constitutional and cultural role in Swedish life.”

“As of 2022, it [the SD] is the largest member of Sweden’s right-wing governing block.”

All taken from the Wikipedia page. You could also listen to the recent interview with a Swedish academic and Doug Henwood, who went in-depth on the SD’s attempts to racialize the Swedish welfare state.

[–]AvoidPinkHairHippos 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

So they're right wing. Not a single fascist position in your list.

Trump is fascist because he tried to overthrow the electoral results, and using the military to suppress democratic protests

Tell me, what is the diff between right wing vs fascist to you? Or are you implying they're the exact same?

[–]IgnatiusBSamson 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Now you’re saying outright ignorant things and bending over backwards to justify fascism.

“Trump is fascist because he tried to overthrow the electoral results.” That’s not what fascism is. But while you’re on that week topic, fascists get elected all the time. Famously, Hitler. It’s a weak barometer.

Racializing the welfare state is fascist. Anti-Semitism is too. Nativist politics, not allowing LGBT to adopt. Are you really going to hair-split in an attempt to defend a party that was founded by Swedish fascists?

I provided you with a mountain of evidence when you clearly had done zero investigation into the party; you knee-jerk demanding examples. I gave a fulsome number of them. Then, you told me how “those fascist positions aren’t fascist, they’re just right-wingers” and demanded my definition of fascism.

Next when I’ll provide it, you’ll tell me it’s over-broad. Always moving the goalposts. Classic.

I’m not going to get caught up in any of that. I made a good-faith effort to educate, you found fault with it instead of doing any critical thinking. I hope you think a lot more about fascism and read up on the sources I provided. Ta!

[–]AvoidPinkHairHippos 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

You clearly don't have a damn clue what fascism is. No wonder you are now afraid to answer my simple question

Really, you think being anti gay rights (which is a position I deplore) means fascism?

Being a nativist or xenophobic (again, which I oppose) means fascism?

By that definition America and Europe has been fascist 100% of its history..... Which begs the question why bother fighting actual fascists like Putin or Hitler

My sister in Sunnah, please consider other educational sources instead of relying on toxic online communities that feed you this kind of crap

[–]austin101123 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to simply use Wikipedia to show how anti-gay is part of fascism, though many definitions would work as well.

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy

Putting straight putting on top of gay is a belief in a natural social hierarchy.

When people disapprove of gay marriage, disallow gay bars, gay sex, etc. often "for the children" or "christian values" or whatever other reason, that is subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race.

When you enforce such standards by state violence (police, prisons, etc.), that is strong regimentation of society.

So it's fair to say being anti-lgbt in the ways those politicians are is fascist. When you have many/majority/overwhelming such fascist components of your political ideology, then your ideology is fascist. Sweden being in the US-led NATO easily covers the bases for ultra-nationalism and authoritarianism too. (More on that later)


"But What About the Dictator? They Don't Have One"

You don't need a dictator.

Many definitions do not include such a strict requirement like having a dictator, you can specifically look at those made by Marxists.

Let's say you have a dictatorial fascist movement take control. Now let's say you have a non-dictatorial fascist movement take control, say an oligarchy, democracy (like Hitler's Germany somewhat was at first), or a mix of whatever. If they do the same things it's not made better if it's not a dictatorship. If it's the will of the people that can be even worse, harder to correct. It's a difference you can recognize, but not worth saying "fascism but without strictly autocracy" every time.


Oh My God Yes America and Europe Have Been Fascist in Their History

By that definition America and Europe has been fascist 100% of its history..... Which begs the question why bother fighting actual fascists like Putin or Hitler

Just because one description of something is the same doesn't mean you should treat them the same. We could agree Sars-CoV-2 and rhinoviruses are both common viruses that infect people (covid and common cold), but clearly covid is worse and should be fought against much harder. Similarly, we can agree Putin and Hitler are worse than current Sweden, whether Sweden is fascist or not.

America and Europe have absolutely been fascist for all (or at least the vast majority) of its recent history. Are you kidding me?

How many people, countries, continents did Europe conquer and control with its overwhelming military might and?

How many slaves did America have, how many countries governments did it overthrow in the 1900s? They literally killed, enslaved, subordinated those within their country they found beneath them, expanded their control with military might. Even in the 2000s, the US has killed 100,000s maybe even 1M+ civilians, let alone "combatants". How many more wars, deaths, control will they continue to exert? And how many more will suffer and die by putting our own selfish desires ahead of global climate? How many already have?

So they were/are fascist. Not just a little bit. Not just by definition. They have been fascist on literally Hitler levels of Fascism. I do not mean that lightly nor figuratively, I am serious. The scale of fascism in Europe and the US has in total done much more damage than Nazi Germany got to. Nazi Germany went fast and against the US and Europe and lost. The US and Europe are in the long game.

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy

Practically none of those elements are true of the liberal democracies of Europe. So calling Europe fascist is false, misguided and amounts to misinformation.

[–]Marha01 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

America and Europe have absolutely been fascist for all (or

at least the vast majority) of its recent history.

Nope. Only a tiny number of leftist extremists believe this. Certainly this is no mainstream view at all. And since you have such an extreme view of what fascism is, why should we believe you about SD being fascist?

​

Back in the real world, merely being anti-gay, nativist etc. does not necessarily make one a fascist. One needs to be *strongly\* anti-gay, nativist etc. to be a fascist. SD has such tendencies but are those tendencies strong enough to label them fascists? That is very much debatable.

[–]austin101123 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

merely being anti-gay, nativist etc. does not necessarily make one a fascist

We agree.

(me) America and Europe have absolutely been fascist...(you) Nope. Only a tiny number of leftist extremists believe this. Certainly this is no mainstream view at all.

I'm not claiming it's a mainstream view, I'm claiming its true. And something not being mainstream doesn't make it false. Whatever some authority, expert, or majority believe doesn't make that belief true!

Nazi Germany exerted military force to take over countries and kill millions over their religion and believed national superiority. Right?
And that made them fascist. Right?
America and Europe took over whole continents while enslaving and killing millions because of their ethnicity and believed national superiority. Right?
Which would make them fascist. Right?

[–]ComradeArthurMorgan 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Fascism is not genocide, racism, sexism, homophobia, war crimes or anything else. It is a form of palingenetic (concept of rebirth or re-creation, used in various contexts in philosophy, theology, politics, and biology) ultra nationalism. It is a specific way of holding these beliefs (racism, sexism,homophobia). It is the belief that your people are ancient and are the descendants of the greatest being on earth, and that you will rise again, or be destroyed, and it is all bullshit.

A nation can have these bigotries at the core of its society and still remain not fascist.

[–]AvoidPinkHairHippos 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You are conflating a Masculinist military political ideology with bigotry

A country/society/govt can be very bigoted without being fascist

Fact: almost all major societies in 5000 years of recorded history have been anti gay or racist in some level.

If we apply Your logic: therefore almost all societies in the last 5000 years recorded history are fascist.

Fact: most millennials, gen x, and boomers have used homophobic slurs or bigotry at some point in their lives. Zoomers not so much.

Applying your logic: thus everyone in its 30s or older are fascist or have been fascist in a period in their lives

With all due respect, I don't think you will get much agreement in r/askhistorians

[–]austin101123 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I made a big comment so this can get lost in the mess, but I mentioned

When you have many/majority/overwhelming such fascist components of your political ideology, then your ideology is fascist.

I'd argue just being anti-lgbt would not make the ideology or country as a whole fascist. The policy itself fits into a fascist framework, and with enough things that like it becomes a fascist ideology or country. You can also look at things to degrees, rather than just 100% fascist or 0% fascist.

As for r/ askhistorians, First note that I have problems with the mods there. But they do often have pretty good posters.

Nevertheless, r/ askhistorians is not inundated with a plethora of South American or African historians. They have a bunch of westerners, just like Reddit itself. “History is Written by Victors”. Fascism is not going to exclude itself from influencing academia, nor are people in the countries immune to its effects just because they are historians. You should care for the argument made, not what authority made it.

[–]IgnatiusBSamson 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

almost all major societies over the past 5000 years have been anti-gay

Oh boy, I have some really bad news for you about the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, pre-Islamic Arabs, Persians, Native Americans, Canaanites, and Thais.

Putin isn’t a fascist, dum-dum. He is a far-right oligarch. Those aren’t identical.

Fascism emerges at a particular point in the development of political economy - “capitalism in decline.” Once the imperial relation has broken down and rate of profit has fallen, immigrants from the periphery repatriate (as in Sweden) and the nativist sentiment, combined with economic malaise, stokes the revolt of the middle orders, who seek out state-sanctioned enemies to strip of civil and legal rights, usually forming activist cadres to do so. Et voila, fascism.

That’s exactly what the SD is, which is why they’re fascist. They pretended to not be for about 20 years , which not coincidentally was when Sweden was 99% white. Now they’ve come full circle as European social democracies fail their first stress-test of mass migration from the Global South. It isn’t a coincidence but hat far-right, often explicitly fascist, parties have emerged continent-wide since the Great Recession and Syrian refugee crisis.

I’m sorry to be rude - but you’re ignorant of politics, and blowhard-confident in that ignorance. You’re bending over backwards to make excuses for right-wing movements, on a sub called Left-Wing male advocates, no less. I’m not going to engage with you anymore.

[–]International_Crew89 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What a vague and nebulous term.

[–]Mahameghabahanacentrist male advocate 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't expect too much for right wing governments. They would only perpetuate traditionalists ideals, gynocentrism, misogyny or misandry. Sure there maybe some good one but majority of them are like that.

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