Gabe from Penny Arcade discovers the RadFem community

[–]mind-strider 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]cutcoguru 11 points12 points13 points 13 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]blergcheese 9 points10 points11 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I consider myself to be a level headed trans person and I take offense to the idea that all men have penises and all women have vaginas. Now, am I going to scream at the people who say this? Of course not. I would politely correct them. "Hey, not all women have vaginas."

The fact is that to a transexual they're the right person in the wrong gendered body anyway so why would they be offended at a game about female masturbation which simply anatomically correct to anyone who considered themselves female.

Yes, that's irritating to hear. I'll tell you why. I know that the idea of a "woman trapped in a man's body" is commonplace for describing trans women. I've never felt this way and I know many trans people don't feel this way. That almost begs the question of "what does it feel like to be a woman?" There is no feeling of being a woman. Trans people usually (that's a key word here because every trans person's experience is different) just feel a great disconnect with their body. For example, I've always felt extremely uncomfortable wearing low cut shirts because they would show cleavage. I could never tell you why is made me uncomfortable. It just did. I felt unable to express myself with my appearance.

But does this mean that I want a penis? Not necessarily. In fact, quite a big chunk of the trans community never gets sexual reassignment surgery. This means there are plenty of women with penises and plenty of men with vaginas. For you to say that this game shows how to masturbate for anyone who considers themselves as female is saying that those with penises do not ever consider themselves as female. That is wrong.

Did that shed some light on the issue? I know the trans community is extremely reactive and it's really difficult to understand their point of view.

[–]cutcoguru 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Again though, just because people describe things in general terms does not mean that there isn't a sliding scale with it either. Someone who feels disease being in their own body, is going to be far more borderline in terms of being transgender than someone who either mutilates parts of their body (in extreme cases) or opts for gender reassignment surgery. However that does not change the fact that being transgender is by its very definition, a disconnect between a person's biological gender and their gender identity.

The fact is that biologically speaking what Gabe has said is absolutely true, that strictly biologically speaking, all women have vaginas. However as you rightly point out, not all those who identify as women have vaginas. It's a key distinction which in this situation, really does cut both ways and something which really does appear to have been lost on both sides here.

Admittedly what I said there was slightly poorly worded and probably should have said, "game about female masturbation which simply anatomically correct to the vast majority of people who considered themselves female." I suspect that a lack of delicate wording. However the point in almost all its entirety stands. At the same time, by no means does saying that invalidate the gender disconnect you feel.

[–]blergcheese 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

First of all, being trans isn't a disease.

Second of all, no one is questioning that you or Gabe think beings trans is a real thing. You both have made it clear that you realize there are trans people in this world. The hurtful thing that's going on here is that when you say that genitalia=gender you are making it seem like you can't be a "real" woman with a penis.

This is important because trans people are constantly being denied things like having the correct marker on their driver's license and things of that nature due to this sort of attitude. This may not seem like a big deal but to someone who has quite a bit of facial hair, it outs me every time I have to show my ID (like at bars) and my license still has an F on it.

Why does that matter? Because when I am outed, I am vulnerable to violence and bigotry. It's no secret that trans people are victims of violence fairly often.

So, it may seem pragmatic to you to to just go by what works for 99% of the population. I think its better to just specify that this video game helps genetic women learn how to masturbate. Or, you know, Gabe could have just corrected himself in tje first place before he put on his "asshat" cap. The people who initially corrected him weren't actually being rude at all (from what I have read.)

Edit: I pressed send too early

[–]cutcoguru 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I never said that being transsexual was a disease. However, biologically speaking it is a condition, just as that ADD which I have is a condition. Neither makes us perpetual lepurs, and neither diminishes who we are as people. Furthermore as someone who had related body issues during puberty which I still bear the physical scars of today due to a botched surgery, I can completely empathise with being transexual.

However at the same time, just as I don't expect the world to automatically differentiate between the estimated 85% of the population who have ADD and the 15% who do, I also regard as equally unrealistic, automatically differentiating in conversation between those who are cis sexual and those who are transexual.

Furthermore I would say that as such, there is a clear distinction between a [cissexual] woman and a transexual woman, due to the nature of transexuality. Again, none of this denies your gender identity in any way shape or form.

EDIT: I just saw the rest of your post, so I'll respond.

First off you seem to be slightly confused. Biologically speaking, you are female, and we both agree on that. However your gender identity is male, again, we both agree on that. I also agree that your gender identity determines your gender.

However in the vast majority of people, their biological gender will determine their gender identity. Furthermore it is social convention to speak in terms of the norm, rather than the exception.

Secondly, you wont get any argument out of me with those issues you've raised. Personally I believe the state needs to treat transexuality as a recognised condition- developing tests, etc, so that someone can be assessed and once assessed, tick the necessary boxes for things like drivers licenses so that they can be regarded legally as female or male in a way that the bureaucrats are satisfied.

When I say tests, it could literally be as simple as a psychologist assessing someone and certifying that someone is transexual. I realise such a notion isn't necessarily the most pleasant thing on the planet, but the way I see it, if it gets you at least the legal status you deserve to have available to you, it's got to be worth it.

Thirdly, the problem seems to have been that in this latest incident, that feminists were piggybacking the Kotatu incident and using it to their own ends, catching him on the backfoot and first thing in the morning when he'd just woken up. He was never going to be able to respond anything other than awkwardly in that situation.

[–]blergcheese -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]cutcoguru 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

On the contrary, ADD is not a disease, it is a condition whereby the brain does not produce enough neuro-transmitters. It is neither degenerative nor contagious and many of us with ADD are highly intelligent, incredibly high functioning and highly successful.

It is highly ironic that you would speak about ignorance when your entire response here reeks of ignorance when confronted with an arguably even more misunderstood condition.

Furthermore, who said that all conditions have to be treated. The fact is that it is the ways which we differ from the norm are what make us who we are.

Finally, for your information, I am quite proud of the fact that I have ADD as it has given me a great strength of character as well as made me a great unconventional thinker, which I might not have otherwise had, had I not had ADD. Even if it hadn't it is still a part of who I am and I refuse to be ashamed of it.

[–]blergcheese -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]cutcoguru 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Schizophrenia is a condition with harmful and destructive effects on the sufferer which I am familiar with through an old school friend and tbh, there's not much you could take from it as a sufferer that is positive, unless it was an incredibly mild case (in which case, someone could make the same claims about character and unconventional thinking I have). That said, I wouldn't begrudge someone who was proud of having severe schizophrenia because they found unexpected blessings from it - in fact I'd admire them for such a proactive and remarkable outlook.

However considering the worst case scenario of both conditions, if you're implying that Schizophrenia is even remotely comparable to ADD then you really are arguing from a place of complete ignorance.

EDIT: One last thing. I'd remind you that the last mainstream group to refer to the disabled as "diseased" were the Nazis.

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[–]cutcoguru 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

At the same time though, I can understand it to some degree. Considering how misunderstood the transgender community is and the marginalisation and bigotry they face, I can understand how they would be a little on edge with things.

As a disabled man, I deal with similar frustration when encountering the term "retard/ed" et al and trying to get it into people's heads that that kind of ableism, no matter how unwitting it might be is quite literally engaging in nazi bigotry due to Nazi Euthanasia Program - where the disabled, or "useless eaters", "life unworthy of life" and "untermensch" as they were also referred to, being the precedent and guinea pigs at places like Hadamar, for the extermination which the Jews and other groups deemed "untermensch" would endure in places like Auchwitz.

It should be obvious that the term "retard/ed" means "to be as bad/<substitute negative adjective here> and therefore worthless as someone deemed to be 'retarded'", yet apparently common sense isn't that common.

I can imagine that transexuals face similar frustration causing bigotry that has them somewhat hypervigilant.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]cutcoguru 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]cutcoguru 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Would most level headed transexuals actually take offence though.

That's sort of irrelevant to the greater context of what actually happened though. Whilst the initial argument sprouted from people talking about the problematic view point he had relating to that specific detail, the reason the vast majority of people are angry with him is as the debate dragged on Gabe progressively acted in an increasingly transphobic manner and almost everyone who made any attempt to engage with him politely and sincerely was ignored so he could point at the extremists to try and justify him acting like a bigoted asshole.

More than anything though, this isn't the first time Gabe has ended up in a situation like this. If some random person had gone through this same set of actions it would be a lot easier to forgive them because of their ignorance. That isn't the case with Gabe though, he goes from one controversy to the next repeating the exact same pattern of saying ignorant stuff, trying to rationalize it, trivializing the feelings of the people he upsets and then inevitability giving some half-hearted apology explaining how he's ignorant, blablabla, and then proves it isn't sincere in the slightest by just doing the whole thing over again.

There comes a point where it becomes quite clear that even if someone is ignorant, they're clearly both aware of their ignorance and unwilling to do anything about it, at which point they basically are just being malicious in a completely round about way.

[–]cutcoguru 7 points8 points9 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Actually looking at it from the outside, the critics in this case are utter morons.

There was nothing mildly offensive in the panel in question. What it clearly was (it's amazing how things look when you DON'T have an agenda when reading something) was that a group of industry professionals felt that the fun and magic had been lost and we concerned about recapturing it in a positive manner. It's a perfectly legimate panel.

When people took issue with gasp shock horror a panel about gaming returning to the magic it once had in a way that works in a modern age, Gabe offered people the option of submitting a panel of their own.

Then someone took issue with Gabe referring to the norm rather than the exception when he looked at things cissexually - referring to an issue with a game previously. I hate to break it to you but no game about female masturbation is going to target pre-op trans women when the percentage of the population that is transexual is so small. That's simple market demographics and that's all.

Then apparently, because Gabe hadn't thought to include a small minority in an argument, he somehow hates them. Guess what, I'm normally sympathetic to LGBT individuals, although tbh you've managed to well and truly kill off my sympathy meter in your case, but if I was referring to women, I generally wouldn't refer to transexuals, unless the situation was about transexuals, because they're the exception and not the norm.

I saw the tweets you personally linked to, and tbh, you're not doing the LGBT community any favours.

I don't know whether this has occurred to you, but do you know what most gaming communities do when there's something out there that they want that noone is producing? They don't whine, moan and scream "bigot" at the developer because a game fails to cater to them - they develop something within the community.

SCUMM VM and the entire DS homebrew community are a classic example of this - communities who in both cases, I have enjoyed the fruits of very gratefully.

If the transexual community feels so left out by this, then why not encourage and support the software engineers in the trans community to develop their own version of said game which DID cater to transexuals who identify as female.

Honestly I could be equally as childish and pissy about game controllers being developed for right handers when I'm left handed. The reason I don't is because I actually have perspective enough to realise that the reason for it is that right handers tend to be more common and not because games developers think being left handed makes me the spawn of satan.

But then I guess it's far easier to scream "bigot". Seriously, if I were transgendered, I would honestly be deeply embarrassed to be associated with the entire debacle and the entire pro-transgender side of it.

Honestly get back to me when we're talking about ACTUAL transphobia (as in actions being driven by ACTUAL fear and hatred) and you will actually have sympathy out of me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]cutcoguru 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Granted I did have you confused with fyrenwater in terms of the tweets linked, however the fact is that you brought up the wider context, which I checked out before responding and honestly, it did you no favours by siding with it. Maybe Gabe could have handled things a little better, but his responses read like he was caught off guard and constantly responding off the back foot from people who were utterly idiotic in their responses.

Furthermore I stand by my analysis of the situation in general terms. The fact is that in the case of the prior incident, which btw, someone else raised, not Gabe, if transgendered individuals who identified as female took issue with the game, they could easily have banded together and made an alternative happen. Furthermore Gabe's comments were spot on, a game about female masturbation, when considering the bottom line, is not going to automatically cater to transgendered women - nor should it unless there's clear evidence that catering to such a small market would be profitable. The same is true of any small demographic with any product out there.

Furthermore, Gabe's responses were far from even remotely any kind of transphobia. Considering the low rates of transexuality, there's nothing even remotely bigotted about a general view of gender being biological driven. Having such a general view in no way automatically precludes recognising transgendered individuals in either direct dealings with transexuals or with issues dealing with transexuals.

What is ridiculous though is that there seems to have been a complete lack of thought to mobilising the community to either developing something within the community, or rather than crying out bigotry, getting enough numbers together to demonstrate to the game developers that a sufficient demand was there. At the end of the day, what ultimately matters to game developers, like any business is the ability to turn a profit. If the developers saw that transexual add-on content or even a second version of the game was viable, there's no reason, possible legalities aside, why they'd refuse to make it.

Honestly, this whole incident has painted the LGBT community in a similar light to feminists in the worst way possible.

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Title	Gabe from Penny Arcade discovers the RadFem community
Author	Hypersapien
Upvotes	13
Comments	52
Date	June 21, 2013 11:49 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1gtt1k/gabe_from_penny_arcade_discovers_the_radfem/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/gabe-from-penny-arcade-discovers-the-radfem.1170508 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170508

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