Question about toxic masculinity

rabel111 · 2020-10-15T01:14:09+00:00

"Toxic masculinity" is hate speech. People who support the use of terms that offends so many people are hate speechers who either intend to offend, or are indifferent to people who are offended. My reasoning support this view is below.

Modern main stream media, social media, psycho-social science literature and scientific literature generally, specifically avoid and condemn the use of offensive terms related to groups identified by specific racial, sex, gender, sexual preference or other characteristics, and require instead the use of sensitive empathetic language that at least does not offend or more commonly is preferentially adopted or approved by many people of that identity. Those people who continue to use offensive labels are often accused of “hate speech” or “phobic” behaviours (i.e. homophobia, islamophobia). Why is a different, less empathetic approach used to speech related to men? Those using the term must justify this difference in approach, but never do. Instead, like you, they ask men to justify their offense.

The nebulous and negative term "toxic masculinity" has been imposed on men and boys despite many men stating that it is offensive. None of the behaviours considered toxic are described in the term, other than being male. While many users of the term repeatedly claim that the underlying meaning of the term is misunderstood, this disengenuous proposition suggests that offensive terms can be used so long as an underlying meaning can be defined, however poorly that definition is reflected in the wording of the offensive term. Again, this is an entirely different and less empathetic approach to speech related to men, compared to speech used for other social groups.

Blaming and demeaning men when they challenge the use of this term, and suggesting that men should not be offended, or that men offended by the term are exhibiting "toxic masculinity," is trite and childish. Like similar schoolyard taunts and bullying, it reveals the offensive nature of the term by using it as an insult. Again, this is an entirely different approach being applied to speech related to men.

Continuing to use a label considered offensive by so many men, suggests an entrenched culture of gender bias and a less than benevolent attitude to men and boys generally. As many peer reviewed academic authors have recognised, hate speech like “toxic masculinity” may be more toxic than the behaviours it pretends to describe, and empirical evidence demonstrates that it alienates many men, and discourages rather than encourages effective dialogue about men and masculinity.

ELPwork · 2020-10-15T01:06:06+00:00

Feminists use the term "toxic masculinity" as a blanket statement to cover just about everything they don't like. Look at that Gillette Ad and see it from the perspective of a man. That ad was telling you to your face that you are a rapist, a bully, a womanizer, an abuser and an all around bad person just because you are a man. That ad was shaming men for being men. Our masculine traits were put up there in a very negative light and we were meant to feel bad for being men. That is what I have a huge issue with.

iainmf · 2020-10-15T00:34:06+00:00

We talk about 'the empathy gap' a lot. Men don't get the same level of care and consideration compared to women. The term toxic masculinity is a good example.

People know that the term is misunderstood and people don't like it (a pilot study has been done into how men respond to the term and most men don't like it), but still keep using the term. Why choose to call it 'toxic masculinity', especially when great care is taken when using language that might negatively affect people.

I ask people to stop using the term toxic masculinity because I find it hurtful. 90% of people tell me to stop being so sensitive. If toxic masculinity really meant what you say, then people would not respond by reinforcing the toxicity they claim to oppose.

to the extent of my knowledge toxic masculinity does not mean masculinity = toxic.

That's not how people use the term. That's the 'motte and bailey' type defence people use when called out.

There are feminist theories that define masculinity as the reason women are oppressed. That is men are socialised to be sexist assholes because of masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is a deficit model. That is there is something wrong with men that needs to be fixed. Most efforts to curb toxic masculinity are focused on changing men, not on changing our attitudes to men. Eg classes for men to unlearn their toxic masculinity

The majority of the discussion of masculinity is about its toxicity which makes people associate masculinity with toxicity.

The term obscures women's power in shaping expectations on men

Please stop using the term 'toxic masculinity'.

duhhhh · 2020-10-15T00:28:05+00:00

Why not call it toxic gender roles? Why blame it as yet another shortcoming of men, when much of it is ingrained into men by their mothers and romantic partners? Why not call it "internalized misandry" as it is the correlary to "internalized misogyny"?

Openworldgamer47 · 2020-10-15T00:18:15+00:00

I can only speak on my own behalf. But I think "toxic masculinity" is propagated by feminists, therefore it carries a lot of connotations. Also, the idea seems to frame masculinity itself as inherently toxic. I know you disagree with that. But I'll explain. This is taken from the perspective that there is something inherently wrong with men. That we need to somehow change to accommodate new social preferences. It's kind of like how in /r/MensLib their biggest concern on the subject of men's rights is that men don't cry. Newsflash, there are biological differences between the genders. I haven't cried... ever. So this logic implies I'm somehow broken or flawed somehow because of how I was born.

Also, almost all the social pressure (for both genders) originates from the opposite gender. Why don't men cry? Because women are less attracted to a man if he cries. Why don't men express their vulnerability to their partners? Because women are less attracted to a man if he expresses vulnerability. Why do men feel compelled to "provide"? Because it's extremely desirable as a trait according to the overwhelming majority of women.

So I think the word also misinterprets where this behavior comes from in the first place. You blame the guy. But he's just... a guy

Sorry... I don't feel bad about being born male

edit: I also want to say thanks for actually giving a shit about men's issues. your the real g. Women like you make me want to invest more time in studying women's issues.

wwstewart · 2020-10-15T01:36:47+00:00

I thought toxic masculinity meant that men are expected to be stoic, invincible, not at all vulnerable or in need of help, inhumanly strong providers who should lift others up. So men's emotional needs are invalidated within relationships (statements like men are animals, only care about booty get thrown around) and are discouraged from opening up emotionally before their male friends, family (man up) and romantic partners.

That's what feminists say when you call them on their bullshit. If you watch closely, it's immediately followed by something like "if this offends you, you're part of the problem".

And that explanation almost never comes after asking an honest question about it...it only comes when you tell them that it's wrong.

That being said, "toxic masculinity", in my opinion, doesn't exist. It's just rhetoric meant to belittle people, and the definitions change based on what narrative they want to push at the time.

And the goalposts ALWAYS change. It's exactly the kind of shit people with NPD/BPD do, except when they do it, it's actually considered (by medical professionals and law) abusive.

mikesteane · 2020-10-15T00:48:45+00:00

To the extent of my knowledge toxic masculinity does not mean masculinity = toxic.

That is the intent of using the expression though.

Moronic-Simpleton · 2020-10-15T01:11:18+00:00

Toxic masculinity is just another label that women have come up with, like mansplaining, manspreading, manteruption or bropriating, to belittle men. Doesn't the word chauvinism or just plain misogyny work? Women just want to call men, toxic to denigrate them.

Long before toxic masculinity, the word: "toxic" was usually associated with women. Specifically menstruating women and a medical term called "toxic shock syndrome". So if any sex is toxic, it is women.

I know that men have plenty of words to associate with women, too. It just seems to be a never-ending game of one upsmanship. A game that is not going away any time soon.

xAlphaKat · 2020-10-15T02:24:10+00:00

Honestly my problem with it is the BIGGEST perpetrator of toxic masculinity is feminists.

RockmanXX · 2020-10-15T12:17:27+00:00

Toxic masculinity does not mean masculinity = toxic.

THEN STOP CALLING IT "TOXIC MASCULINITY".

men are expected to be stoic, invincible

If no one cares about your feelings STOICISM is your only friend, first you make the Society care about Men then i will let go of my "Toxic" Masculinity.

tenchineuro · 2020-10-15T14:01:06+00:00

To the extent of my knowledge toxic masculinity does not mean masculinity = toxic.

Consider this...

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/j9enev/silencing_young_men_in_class_is_not_enough_taking/
Some universities run thought reprogramming courses for male students.
These courses are designed to replace "biases" with approved mental cognitions. None of these programs have been empirically assessed to see if they cause short or long term harm to the young men who are being mentally reprogrammed. Studies have not examined for important possibilities such as increased rates of suicide, increased use of alcohol and drugs, decreased scholastic grades, elevated rates of drop out, increased fear of dating or the triggering of one or more mental illness crisis.
At the University of Texas at Austin the mental health center treats masculinity as a mental illness. They combat it through their "MasculinUT" program. The goal is to teach men to reject masculinity and traditional roles such as protector/provider. They teach men not to strive for success in a masculine way.
The mental health center at Brown University runs a reprogramming treatment class titled "Masculinity 101". Male students are deprogrammed from "toxic masculine norms" and mentally reprogrammed to feminist-defined roles (Mastrangelo, Alana (2018). Brown University provides programs for 'unlearning toxic masculinity.' Breitbart, Oct 23, 2018).
First year male students at Gettysburg College are forced to watch a film which describes "toxic masculinity", then participate in a four hour reprogramming session which describes masculinity as "an unacceptable human trait." (Freshmen at Gettysburg College are forced to watch a film that tells them the phrase 'be a man' is 'toxic masculinity.' Daily Mail, Oct 18 2016).
Claremont College held an event "Masculinity+Mental Health", teaching male students "Masculinity can be extremely toxic to our mental health." (Payton, Bre (2016). College students: Masculinity is 'extremely toxic to our mental health.' The Federalist, Oct 04 2016).
Duke University runs a "Men's Project", consisting of a 9-week seminar which "questions and deconstructs toxic masculinities" (Alexander, Harriet (2016). U.S. university offers course for men to 'deconstruct toxic masculinities.' The Telegraph, Oct 01 2016). They also offer "safe spaces" where male students can "contemplate their toxic masculinity." (Melchior, Jillian (2016). Duke offers men a 'safe space' to contemplate their 'toxic masculinity.' Fox News, Oct 02 2016).
The University of Wisconsin created "safe spaces" where males attend a 6-week program to deprogram "toxic masculinity". Young men are then mentally reprogrammed to be social justice warriors who "advance gender equity and raise consciousness in their communities."
Princeton University believes incoming male students are angry, violent and potential rapists. (Krayden, David (2017). Princeton seeks to restrain males and their 'toxic masculinity. The Daily Caller, Jul 25 2017).
Wheaton College (Massachusetts) created "safer spaces" through their "Healthy masculinity" program, where male students are able to discuss "healthy and toxic masculinity"

Apparently, masculinity itself is toxic and a mental illness.

Lion_amongst_gods · 2020-10-15T00:33:34+00:00

"Toxic masculinity doesn't mean masculinity is toxic, it refers to the toxic aspects of masculinity"

Is the equivalent of

"Feminism isn't about female supremacy, it's about equality".

smeltaway · 2020-10-15T06:39:46+00:00

I could write an essay on this--its why I ended up on this sub, but to summarize it quickly its not the message that men need to be able to be emotionally healthy. I think thats great.

tl;dr - Its more a sense that men have to be passive now. You can't be strong, confident, capable and ambitious. Those traits are for women. Instead more and more there is a sense that you are a passive actor in society and the world happens to you, you don't have an active role in it. That you are no longer an equal, you cannot and should not interact on the same level of confidence and decisiveness as women. I can't verbalize (or write it) clearly, but hopefully this makes some sense.

One small example...I've spent the last few days in meetings designing a large, relatively complex system. In past years when I was doing this and someone made an obvious mistake I could say something like "Hey hold on, you missed x." Now, to avoid being "toxic" I need to couch it and sound less confident "Hey, um, I think there might be something else here to consider, like maybe what if x happened?" Women don't have any expectation they do this.

Im also very ambitious and a fairly high achiever. That used to be seen positively and recognized. Now Im just viewed as over-privileged and seen as a general pariah, whereas women who have gotten where I am are seen extremely positively.

It really sucks to have to censor yourself in small ways all the time and to be seen as a pariah for what you spent your life building and working towards. I want women to have the same opportunity and have mentored multiple women in tech, but the way feminism has framed masculinity is vile and destructive.

eugene_barjamel · 2020-10-15T13:58:13+00:00

Because there's not Toxic Feminity concept. If I bring up this concept, people tend to se me as a misogynist. And this concept was theorized by a psychiatrist about men's health problems in first, and feminists stole it and used it as a tool for their hatred. I recommend the post of TheTinMen about it to know why this concept is harmful for self-estim

newhopefortarget · 2020-10-15T14:36:17+00:00

It's superficial and shallow. Let's examine a specific behavior, say crying. Someone like you might say that men don't cry enough because of toxic masculinity that says that men are some how "repressed". There's an implication there for some reason you know better than the man in question where the appropriate line is.

To suggest that there can be such a thing as "toxic masculinity" implies that there's a "regular" part and a "toxic" part. Well that's convenient isn't it? Now you can label the parts you don't like "toxic". But I though the whole point of your ideology was to affirm masculinity itself, not to pick and choose which parts you feel are psychologically superior. Like isn't gender supposed to be constructed, or whatever, and men should be free to express their masculinity in whatever way they desire? If that's the case, then how can ANY part of it be "toxic"? If a man feels it's inappropriate to cry, then that's his choice of gender expression and it's no more "toxic" to repress that urge to cry, then is to stay composed. Why is one toxic and the other not so? It's all purely subjective.

Then there's the problem that masculine traits and feminine traits overlap. What useful meaning or distinction does "toxic masculinity" bring to the table then? If a woman can exhibit the same toxic behavior, what exactly does masculinity have to do with it?

There's all sort of contradictions that come out of this idea. It seems obvious that it's just a poorly thought out construction whose only purpose is to harp on men.

Think about it. If your whole ideology is that "gender is a social construct", then what leg do you have to stand on exactly when you say that "these behavior patterns are toxic masculinity"? You just constructed them!

playingpoodles · 2020-10-15T02:02:11+00:00

We get a lot of you fakers, 'I believe in equality BUT', and we're not fooling for it. Unless you are genuinely intellectually handicapped, or maybe extremely young, if you watched the public discourse on 'toxic masculinity' you know VERY WELL it means MEN ARE BAD, the most charitable interpretation of it is it means ALMOST ALL MEN ARE BAD.

You know VERY WELL it is NOT presented in a male sympathetic way, to release men of their burdens and pressures of gender roles assigned to them - that they don't need to be the strongman/provdier - but to show that men are VIOLENT and RAPISTS and CHILD ABUSERS and WOMEN OPPRESSORS and INAPPROPRIATE IN THE WORKPLACE and KEEPING WOMEN FROM THE GOOD JOBS.

The fig leaf in the popular narrative is, 'there are a few good men, I have met them', as if men are by and large are evil people (like say, black men were characterised in the South in the Jim Crow era), but there are a tiny few who are decent, grovelling their apologies for being born and their privileges while licking the fat hairy toes of their lesbian masters.

We aren't fooling for your faux-concern or your pretense that you don't understand what's really going on. Therefore, my suggestion to you is that you go away and continue to promote injustice since it's what you want.

bellathebest404 · 2020-10-15T16:52:54+00:00

I'm a woman and I find traits like being emotionally vulnerable and being "soft", extremely attractive. Every girl that I've ever talked to agrees with me.

Title	Question about toxic masculinity
Author	redit4speechfreedom
Upvotes	13
Comments	36
Date	October 14, 2020 2:44 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/jb1zrp/question_about_toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/question-about-toxic-masculinity.1194448 https://theredarchive.com/post/1194448

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