Toxic Masculinity and what some people get wrong

iainmf · 2019-10-26T13:22:55+00:00

Obviously you are concerned about men so I will ask you to please stop using the term 'toxic masculinity'.

I personally find it hurtful. I know what the term means and that many people who use it have good intentions, but I can't get past it. A lot of other men feel the same way. So please stop using the term.

Sininenn · 2019-10-26T13:29:07+00:00

When something hurts women: patriarchy, oppression of women, internalized misogyny!!!

When something hurts men: toxic masculinity!!!

Who is getting blamed here all the time, hm?

RealBiggly · 2019-10-26T13:29:57+00:00

So let's all discuss toxic femininity, and while we're at it, them blacks eh? So damn toxic with their blackness.

Of course, if we're to talk about toxic blackness, them Jews eh? Eh?

Toxic Jewishness. Ought to be a law?

So womansplain it for us, what would be your solution to toxic Jewishness?

svending · 2019-10-26T13:07:23+00:00

This is womansplaining at it's best and worst... Talk to us like we're dum-dum thug Neanderthals?

We don't need your lecture. We know what is truly toxic, and it's not masculinity.

EricAllonde · 2019-10-26T14:04:55+00:00

Self-flagellating male feminists are so boring. They are the simplest of NPCs, they've been programmed with the feminist narrative and never questioned it, never even examined it. Perhaps they're not even mentally capable of questioning the feminist narrative, all their simple programming can do is regurgitate it endlessly. Yawn.

FormedBoredom · 2019-10-26T14:30:32+00:00

Toxic masculinity isn't a thing.

EricAllonde · 2019-10-26T14:09:00+00:00

I have found a lot of people criticising the phrase 'rapey male feminist' and wanted to shed some light on why a lot of that anger is misdirected. I agree that the term sounds pretty shitty at face value but it is one of the most important phrases to come out of the sane & rational observers of feminism in regards to making everyone's lives better.

Meh. I could go on and mirror your entire post, but I'm bored with you already.

apeironman · 2019-10-26T15:17:52+00:00

Please stop. You want men to show more emotions? Maybe try some empathy and stop shaming them when they do.

The reason men are taught to be stoic is because we are aware we are treated like second-class citizens and we know complaining about it will just get us ridicule. Almost from the moment we are born we receive less attention from our parents than girls, get graded more harshly in school than girls, and are generally judged more by what we provide than who we are as people.

More men than woman are homeless? Spend more on housing for women.

Men die at an earlier age? Spend more on women's healthcare

Men not going to college? Offer more scholarships to women

Hundreds of boys die from circumcision each year, legally? Let's crack down on illegal FGM

Equal rates of DV between men and women? Lock up the men, build more shelters for women

Men not getting representation from their government? Open up another government agency for women's issues

...and I could go on and on.

Maybe when men see more evidence that they are valued as people and not providers, we'll open up more. Until then, what's the point?

whatafoolishsquid · 2019-10-26T13:16:14+00:00

A man can be traditionally masculine if he wants. What's "toxic" is a bunch of self-righteous pseudointellectual women thinking they get to define what manhood is to me. Besides being rooted mostly in biology, I enjoy being traditionally masculine. I don't enjoy you shaming me for it.
The Patriarchy is a myth.

BEERGOD88 · 2019-10-26T13:19:20+00:00

I think you are mistaking patriarchy for our history. This world was built by men whether you like it or not. The history of America has brought you to this point where you look back and see all that it is. And it was built by men. So you call it a patriarchy and look for how it has somehow wronged you. All the while shouting it from a pulpit built for you. American woman are by far the least oppressed in the entire world.

abetterdarkknight · 2019-10-26T15:06:06+00:00

Yawn.

Sketchxsight · 2019-10-26T13:08:10+00:00

the patriarchy had a negative effect on men.

No, it's evolution that had this effect on men. Women have selected their mates based on their dominance. Women want their men to be able to protect them from other men, use aggression when needed and be in control. Not only do they want this for their personal benefit, but they also want those genes in order to give them to their sons.

If women want less masculine men, they need to start dating them, and not go after the "bad boys"

Ody_ssey · 2019-10-26T13:39:48+00:00

Toxic masculinity doesn't exist. Masculinity is a characteristics and characteristics cannot be toxic. Only your behaviour can. Your hair is long, mine is short, that doesn't define your behaviour.

What's so wrong to be an alpha male? It encourages sense of competition and to outperform your competitors for better career and position. Every team needs a leader. Without competition how would you determine who is the competitor of the competitor and deserve to be a leader. This is how innovation progreses. Those people who afraid of this competition, of course only they complain about it because they know they can never win.

Anger is a common emotion regardless of gender. Associating it with masculinity is a stereotype. With given situation, brain automatically reacts to prepare your body. It appears differently with different individuals.

patriarchy had a negative effect on men

The way you say "patriarchy", it looks as easy as if I can nominate myself to be a vice President of my company. Those people in higher position in hierarchy are there because they cleared tough competition to move up. So this patriarchy is motivating because it tells people below to work harder and win position.

But of course, feminists call this patriarchy toxic because they know they can never win in this competition. So they blame the system instead of blaming their own failures. It is easier this way to hide the shame. Feminists make you think that there's something wrong with that when it is just a competition of limited seats. Regardless of gender, the one who clears it moves up in hierarchy. I don't see any existence of patriarchy. I see competition. Either you can feel motivated or afraid.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2019-10-27T11:46:19+00:00

So how do you reconcile your definition here with Feminists shaming men with "lol male tears"?

2019-10-27T23:03:15+00:00

Why did you tag this Feminism are you a Feminist? That would explain why you talk about men as if they're just defective women.

Greg_W_Allan · 2019-10-27T02:30:52+00:00

The only toxicity surrounding masculinity is the attitude of some others towards it.

2019-10-27T02:38:33+00:00

"Toxic Masculinity" doesn't exist. It's a slur used by bigots to attack men.

Society placed toxic masculinity within us and it is up to us to try and be helpful and open to one another.

So if society did something it's masculinitys fault? Sounds like society is to blame and who does society benefit most? Women. Always has since the dawn of time.

So when women are manipulative it's "Toxic Masculinity" sounds like Toxic Femininity to me.

This is just another bigoted "Men bad! Women Good! Hate Masculinity! Femininity Good!" attempt and it's really weak.

2019-10-27T02:42:18+00:00

Inherent within this idea is that men are not inherently bad, nor un-salvageable, but that the patriarchy had a negative effect on men

The core concept of patriarchy is that Men and Boys are subhuman oppressors unworthy of love or affection. It relies on a factually inaccurate and bigoted world view.

You're clearly a feminist, and Feminism is deeply in bed with anti-male bigotry. It's clear that you don't even believe half of what you say, if men aren't "inherently bad" why would they need salvaging? Amazing how it's always Men who need "salvaging" and never women, you do realize that salvage refers to garbage right?
You literally just called men "Recyclable Trash"

2019-10-27T23:01:46+00:00

Just to clarify, and I hope the downvotes made this clear.

You're a bigot because you generalize and demonize men as a group.

You blame men for the actions of women because you believe women can do no wrong.

You're not in favor of men, you're in favor of Feminism - Feminism being the most bigoted hate movement in modern history, so much so that even most women want nothing to do with it.

2019-10-29T00:30:57+00:00

I know that the first image that comes to mind when hearing the phrase is a stereotypical angry man-hating blue haired feminist, but you must look past the straw-man

That's not a straw man, I mean "Big Red" is a major feminist icon, and she ticks every box. Feminism itself is about man hating the core belief of feminism is that men and boys are all evil.

username2136 · 2019-10-26T13:36:34+00:00

I agree for the most part but there has to be a less misleading title. Here’s the only problem with this definition. Isn’t the patriarchy supposed to be a society where men are advanced in every way to the detriment of women? If so, why is toxic masculinity even even a thing, as in how can men struggle in a society meant to benefit them at any possible turn? That’s the only hole I see tbh.

I also don’t think we can stop toxic masculinity alone. The women have a part to play in this too. A very common thing I have noticed in my experience with women (I think half of them do this from my experience or they were once like this and are better now). If you open up to them, they will smack it away. They will tell us we are wrong for feeling that way and they will eventually use it against you at some point. They also tend to manipulate to get us to so something like “if you were a real man...” or “If you really loved me...” and stuff like that.

I have heard a speculation that this is why female violent crime or crime in general is so rare, they use this tactic to get their man to do whatever they want for them and she gets away with it while her man is the one being punished. This sounds like something someone with a normal logical perception of thing would say no to but this might be because love can make people do stupid shit. I had an ex who was able to get me to buy her a tablet because she told me she always wanted a tablet and a 3ds because she told me she really likes the Legend of Zelda series and she never touched either of them. If a man was so deprived of love for a long time, he will fall hard for the first girl to give him any, real or not.

I wish I had a source for that though. As the best the guy gave me was a Jordan Peterson video on the difference between male and female bullying. Cool video but he never mentioned women getting them to commit crimes for them.

Sketchxsight · 2019-10-30T02:57:55+00:00

NOTE: This person is a feminist and doesn't acknowledge any of the wrongdoings of Feminism.

He doesn't acknowledge the unfairness of the male draft.

He doesn't acknowledge the unfairness of the Duluth Model which got innocent male victims of DV thrown in jail.

He doesn't view Men as people.

DignifiedAlpaca · 2019-12-03T23:16:36+00:00

I agree that the term sounds pretty shitty at face value

You might as well stop right there then. You admitted in your own post that there is something wrong with the term. So why not just use a different term instead then? I don't understand where all the insistence people have on continuing to use a term they admit has problems is coming from. Why are there people who are so in love with this term???

wumbo-inator · 2019-10-29T15:39:56+00:00

I said that a while ago and got downvoted to hell lmao

Although I still do believe what I said and agree with you.. there were some people that brought up some good points.

Someone told me that although the concept makes sense, it is still sexist in nature because it is a term used to frame men as the problem and not the trials they face. There is "toxic femininity" but nobody calls it that, because the term "toxic masculinity" is used to paint guys as wild and violent, rather than conditioned and troubled.

Example: Guy hits wife=toxic masculinity

Girl purposely plays victim to alienate kids from father= cricket noises

Both are toxic forms of usual gender identities, but only one is used and it isn't used to explain damaging gender norms, but wild and violent men. When the roles are reversed and it's a woman using her societally given quality of innocence in court, nobody calls it toxic femininity. Nobody really cares

If it really was about harmful gender roles and stereotypes, then you'd hear the "toxic femininity" counterpart used as well, because there are toxic behaviors as a result of the gender norms we usually attach to women. We don't hear it though, because that's not what it's really about.

So overall, good concept, ruined by misandry that permeates much of feminism

To be fair, I think both MRAs and feminists have become quite radical.

Title	Toxic Masculinity and what some people get wrong
Author	Sketchxsight
Upvotes	0
Comments	116
Date	October 26, 2019 12:54 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/dndhju/toxic_masculinity_and_what_some_people_get_wrong/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity-and-what-some-people-get-wrong.1203167 https://theredarchive.com/post/1203167

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