Space to vent? | MensRights

Few_Poetry820 · 2022-02-25T20:33:35+00:00

Seriously where can men go to vent about shit in their relationships without attracting every feminist?...

[–]PQKN051502 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]gamerlololdude -9 points-8 points-7 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Read a textbook or encyclopedia on philosophical thoughts and theories. See what the feminist ideology implies. You are using the social media idea of feminism.

It doesn’t matter what it’s called. “abolitionism” on it’s own doesn’t mean much. In context it is abolishing slavery, more specifically of blacks in the west.

Feminism is for gender equality. To achieve gender equality men’s rights are considered like women’s rights. Though all of this stops mattering when you just start looking at it as just human rights. Non-binary rights, transgender rights, intersex rights.

Historically when feminism started, to get to gender equality there needed to be more done for women rights because they had a lot less. They were property for men at a point. Today, feminism is an umbrella term for all gender rights. So men’s rights is part of feminism.

[–]PQKN051502 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

These books are written by feminists.

And it is only used as umbrella term for "all gender rights" by feminists, so they can use the so-called good image to manipulate others more and more.

And you have been manipulated big time or maybe you are trolling. I am concerned for you.

Feminists have never fought for men's wellbeings. In real life, feminists in many many countries have voted against the gender-neutral rape laws, they have voted for only male draft, they have written books about how to destroy male lives with false accusations and victim-playing, they have tried to re-write history to get more opportunities to play the victims, they have written books promoting female supremacy, they have NEVER tried to stop infant circumcision (male genital mutilation), they have never talked about male homelessness, they have tried to stop male victims of domestic abuse, female rapists and pedos from getting justice. They have tried hard to push the Duluth model, the feminists have tried hard to push the "male are always the evil perpetrators, females are always the angelic victims" mindset. They have always tried hard to write feminist biased books to manipulate others, their books are always full of lies and hypocrisy.

They are literally the definition of "wolves in sheep clothing".

The white feminists in the past were the ones who tried to get black men and brown men imprisoned for life and killed by lying and false accusations. And then they projected and put all the racism blame on "white males". The word Karen doesn't come from nowhere. There are so many awful hypocrisy of feminists I cannot even start.

Even in the past, feminists were extremely racist to black men and they hated gay men and trans people. Till this day, they are still saying trans women are not women and try to erase trans rights. Now, they are manipulating gay men and using gay men, they don't care about the gays, they only pretend to care.

I hope you are trolling. How can someone believe feminist lies this hard?

The reality is feminism = female supremacy. The feminists try to disguise it as "equality for everyone" so they can manipulate and take advantage of even more people.

[–]AirSailer 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Is feminism just a woman thing?

Why would you assume I am a woman?

Have you read any book, encyclopedia, textbook on feminism and other movements. Start there. These are not definitions out of thin air.

What is happening in fact is this sub is coming up with a new idea of feminism and I’m genuinely confused what you guys are imagining to be this “spooky feminist”.

I am using the academic term for feminism. Seems this sub is using the social media or some extremist view of feminism. So you are making up what feminism means in this case.

This is how this sub gets labeled as a male supremacy group. Like MGTOW started wholesome and turned into random hate following gender essentialist views completely missing the original point. What makes a male or female or intersex human is not that drastic. It’s some organ differences and hormones differences. Yet people here are divide as if men and women are these distinct creatures against each other.

[–]AirSailer 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LettuceBeGrateful 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude -5 points-4 points-3 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Read a textbook or an encyclopedia on philosophical thoughts and theory. Feminism is about gender equality. It’s rights for men, women, non-binary, transgender, intersex. Just people of all genders. To make gender eventually not matter because everyone would have equal rights regardless of how they identify or present or what organs they have.

It seems to me people here use “feminism” like the social media term. Feminism is a movement with a purpose to get gender equality. Just like abolitionism was a movement with a purpose of ending slavery. Movements are based on certain ideas such as all genders should be equal or all races should be equal.

Initially when feminism started it was more focused on women’s rights because to achieve gender equality women needed more work done. They used to be property for men. Today, the focus of feminism is equality for all genders. So men’s rights is part of feminism.

[–]LettuceBeGrateful 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Defined where.

Gender equality is like a seesaw. Both sides need to be equal. You can’t claim equality if one is not on the same level. Feminism includes transgender rights too, it’s equality for all genders. So the whole point is to stop having gender define people. Gender equality is a human rights issue where the gap between genders needs to be bridged.

This is where feminism is going. Judith Butler that brought up the concept around queer theory is in the feminist domain. It’s not that she is “oh let’s think all men are evil”. She is a philosopher that is presenting an idea around the concept of gender. Since gender is at the heart of feminism.

Feminism is like a theory turned into a movement. One can be labeled as an evolutionary psychologist. Evolutionary psychology is a theory and people can do work in terms of it. Feminism is a theory that touches on how genders interact. Using these theories feminists take actions on how to make the world better in terms of how genders interact.

[–]LettuceBeGrateful 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The dictionary. The feminism subreddit. Wikipedia. Take your pick, Mr. "read a textbook or encylopedia."

Using these theories feminists take actions on how to make the world better in terms of how genders interact.

Weird. When feminism successfully fought across the globe to exclude rape laws from including male victims, and called men who fought for due process "bullies and rapists," and successfully killed family court reform that was widely popular, and instituted a DV model that assumes men are abusers and has resulted in male victims being arrested more often than their female abusers...seems like feminism cares very much about upholding gender, and using it as a cudgel to make the world worse for men.

Judith Butler is a horrible excuse of a human being who defends women accused of sexual assault, and supports literal terrorists.

Not that I really care about Butler anyway. She's hateful trash, but she's irrelevant. I'm more interested in Mary Koss, one of the most decorated and influential feminists of the past generation, whose seminal research on rape and sexual assault includes the notion (which she has repeated from the 80's all the way to modern times) that men cannot be raped, even if they are drugged and forced into intercourse. Her thoughts are not merely thoughts: they are the foundation of rape legislation and national survey collection in the U.S. and the U.K. that excludes men.

Judith Butler is a terrible example on your part, but I don't care about the hate that is spread by useless navel-gazing academics. Feminism has had a direct hand in denying men their rights, and if the best counterpoint you have is a passage in a textbook somewhere, you don't have a counterpoint at all.

[–]bearclaw5 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]bearclaw5 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I do keep telling them that. This sub gets labeled as a male supremacy group and gets people banned on other subs for commenting here because people here don’t educate themselves on what feminism is. So it skews things and then it looses credibility. So it ends up breeding hate. Most are using feminism in the ideology sense, what it gets used as in academia. but here some people may not know that so assume it is something else that is negative.

I commented here to tell OP to reconsider what they think “feminist” means. To try to stop this cycle.

You just can’t claim to be anti-feminist. It won’t get you far into advocating for rights. Because feminism is about gender equality in the end. If someone doesn’t want gender equality then it would be a male / female supremacist.

I wrote to the mods of this sub to work on removing things that are hinting at the anti-feminist vibe. So that this sub can safe face. It would be sad to see it turn into how MGTOW started wholesome and became toxic.

[–]bearclaw5 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]LettuceBeGrateful 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Who are these evil feminists you guys are scared of? Describe them.

Read a book on feminism. The point of it was to bring gender equality. It is still going this way because transgender rights are part of feminism too. Men’s rights are part of feminism because gender equality is rooted in gender and how to make it basically not be the end all for judging humans.

Extremists are not indicative of an ideology. Like not all Muslims are terrorists but there will be some who use their religion as a crutch to justify things.

When this sub claims to be anti-feminist that is how you guys get labeled for being a male supremacy group. Educate yourself on the concept of feminism. Like just read an encyclopedia, a textbook, an unbiased book.

Men’s rights is part of feminism. A man can’t be anti-feminist if he believes in equal rights for everyone. Including men’s rights for himself.

[–]duhhhh 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

One of many examples: How about the feminists that bury rape by women and demonize men as the problem instead of rapists and deny raped men help?

Nonconsensual envelopment is usually categorized as "made to penetrate", "forced to penetrate", or "unwanted contact" which are forms of "other sexual violence" rather than "rape" or "sexual assault". Hence, men who are naturally evil do nearly all the "rape" and "sexual assault".

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these five threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://np.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/oc2yp0/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

[–]SamaelET 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Nop don't associate us with them please.

We actually care about men and see them as human beings. Talk about and want to solve men's issues without blaming men or masculinity. We don't believe in "Patriarchy" or "toxic masculinity". We want male victims to be helped and female perpetrators to be held accountable. We want equality of treatment under the law and no preferential treatment for women. We don't believe that men oppressed women through history. We don't believe that men and masculinity are evils, pro rape or that every man is a potential rapists. We don't believe it is okay to generalize men because of the action of a few. We don't want feminists to cherry pick the good side of equality without the bad sides.

We have nothing on common.

Also we believe a movement is defined by its actions and not by it claims to be or what the encylcopedia says.

[–]gamerlololdude -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

What is your understanding of “patriarchy” and “toxic masculinity”?

I don’t think you understand the premise of these terms. It’s not blaming men as a gender or any men in general.

Patriarchy is a structure where males are considered to run the pack. Like with chimpanzees it’s a patriarchy while bonobos are matriarchy. an example of a patriarchy concept is the man’s last name being taken by the wife. It’s not bad or good in itself, it just explains a trend. Women not allowed to be religious leaders is an example of patriarchy.

Sociological trends can be explained with patriarchy.

Toxic masculinity is taking traits that we made up to be masculine (totally arbitrary, not connected to individual men) and when those traits end up being abused it is considered toxic. Like competitiveness is considered a masculine trait (it’s stupid to label things as masculine or feminine but that is how it got labeled). Someone can use competitiveness for good or be toxic about it. that’s all this term means. It’s not saying being masculine is bad or men are toxic. aggressiveness is a masculine labeled trait, it can be used for good like during a war to defend or to hurt people. When it hurts people it is labeled as toxic masculinity.

Men oppressed women back when they were treated as property. There is quite a lot of evidence of this. Men being socialized to expect to be entitled to women bodies for sex is an example of that fallout. That is where incels comes from, the whole premise is being upset they don’t get sex because they think they were entitled to women bodies in the first place. Even if sex is just another fun activity no one is entitled to or exchanging.

Read Elliot Rodgers manifesto. You can see how warped his perception is about women and thinking they own him sex.

Women not being allowed topless for reasons of “un oh may arouse men” is an example of that past oppressive belief. Today it may not be what you believe, you personally may support women being topless but the past pressure can be explained by oppression of women because their bodies were policed. It’s historical like with black people who used to be oppressed since considered slaves.

No one believes men and masculinity is evil. That doesn’t make sense and not gender inclusive. How can a gender or traits be evil. No every men is not a rapist, sexual assault is not a gender issue. So if we don’t assume every women is a rapist neither should every man or non binary or person of another gender identity. Generalizing by gender is bad everywhere, as it applies to men and women. People shouldn’t be grouped by gender in the first place.

This sub gets labelled as a male supremacist group because basic concepts are not understood, this isn’t helping your cause. Feminism is about gender equality. It is impossible to be for gender equality if some genders are not deemed to deserve equality. Transgender rights are part of feminism too. You will find supremacy in all ideologies like TERFs claim to be feminist but exclude trans. Those are not real feminists. Go back to the encyclopedia definition or else we are inventing definitions for what terms mean.

I can claim Muslim and terrorist are synonyms because some muslims are terrorists. But that is misleading.

[–]bearclaw5 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bearclaw5 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bearclaw5 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bearclaw5 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bearclaw5 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

people are working on all of that bud, it won’t fix itself right away. They are listening to these needs. Who are “they”. Are you claiming feminism is just a thing for women? Are you claiming there are men who are feminists that are purposefully making things worse for men, so themselves?

how do you define someone who is “feminist” out of those that you talk to?

What is a trait you attribute to someone you label as “feminist”?

You are using a complex philosophical term but attributing some individual people’s actions. Like yes there will be brutal Christians that kill people. but the basis of Christianity does not believe in that. There can be people who identify with an ideology that do bad things, it’s not because of the ideology being bad. There will be extremists in every domain that will twist the point of the ideology.

Feminism takes care of all gender equality. Like transgender rights are part of it too. The point is to bridge the gap between gender.

Maybe you talked to TERFs or women supremacists. But to twist a whole ideology to state that it’s some evil plot against men is far fetched.

Where do they blame men? Blaming patriarchy is not blaming men. Toxic masculinity is not blaming men. Read about these terms to understand them more deeply rather than thinking you are being attacked.

Some things are dumb like mansplaining. that’s not gender inclusive so throw that idea out. Feminists are not against women being in the draft. It was conservatives that were against it. They are against the draft in the first place that’s what it is.

there is a lot of complexity around gender as a concept.

[–]bearclaw5 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

This is a great criticism and makes me think. Ok, so I was not entirely fair.

So, mens rights issues that personally affect me, maybe you want to help. I will assume you are acting in good faith right now. So, are you aware of BPD? I was in a relationship with a BPD woman for a long time, the pattern of behavior among BPD women is blame shifting.

So, the believe all women thing. I take exception to that. If you are a feminist, and you want to help me with a mens rights issue that affects me personally, its double standards. Some women tell lies in order to victimize men, then when the societally accepted thing is to believe all women, I have been harmed by that. I know other men who are in even worse situations, I will relate one here.

His wife made a false report of domestic violence after trying to stab him. He was removed from his home, which he owned, and lost his right to keep and bear arms, because she lied and was believed. He eventually was able to get her out, but due to a paperwork error with a no contact order or something was unable to live in it. He eventually was able to sell it, but suffered tremendously from the fact that she first tried to stab him, then called the cops and said he abused her. So, this is very harmful, and if you want to help me with my needs in feminist circles, please advocate for proper evidentiary standards when women report abuse, and raise the awareness that sometimes it is women that are the abusers.

You're right that there are some feminists raising awareness of mens issues, so apologize for overgeneralizing.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ted+talk+mens+rights&view=detail&mid=9DE1CD7536DE3D7C383A9DE1CD7536DE3D7C383A&FORM=VIRE

Here is a video of one, she is a person who I deeply respect for discussing the topics she raised in this video. Also in this video, she relates her experience with other feminists with her realization and advocacy for mens rights, so another thing I would ask of you, as a feminist, is to push back on that in feminist circles.

Mens rights is valid, we have valid concerns, and if feminists want to help us with them, I would deeply appreciate it. I am capable of recognizing nuance, I also realize that feminists could use some help from us, what would you ask of me?

*one more thing, did you think all mens rights activists are men? They aren't.

I would love it both sides could just drop the differences and we all call ourselves gender equality advocates, but I would have to see some changes in the discourse around gender coming from feminist thinkers, and certain phrases and ideas being called out as unacceptable. And to answer the question about patriarchy and toxic masculinity, yes I know what those mean and no I do not feel attacked by those labels, I am not in any way related to those concepts. I talk about my feelings all day long, and have never been in a situation where men were the ones in positions of power in my personal life, believe it or not. I work in a female dominated field. Definitely can get along with women just fine.

[–]gamerlololdude -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Blame shifting is a common tactic with not highly intelligent people. Like look at Putin lol. He thinks he is never wrong, always right.

Here is a tip: society is evolving so a lot of things that are gendered are better to be moving away to be viewed as being not. This is feminism still, since gender equality. Gender equality can be achieved with gender inclusivity. Gendering things will remain harmful.

“believe all women” is more like “believe all people”. it started with women due to historical reasons (think, because initially feminism needed to do more for women rights to achieve equality, the seesaw balance was in less favour to women, so they had to do more. Now times changed thanks to the movement so its expanding to all gender rights).

People say that not to mean that women are innocent and men bad, but because historically rape victims in general were just not believed. It used to take way too much effort to prove a rape. Which is traumatizing for the victim. The premise used to be innocent until proven guilty and required a lot of evidence that may have been dismissed anyways, instead of taking the assumption that the victim is telling the truth.

People can still abuse any system. Now it’s some false rape accusations. Before it used to be some people getting away with rape. Overall, a system where the victim is believed more initially is better though. This helps men too. Imagine the difficulty of having to prove a man was raped by a woman, in some cultures. It’s brutal. But here you can use “believe all women” as a “believe all men” rebuttal (In a case of being victim. It doesn’t work if man was accused of perpetrator just like it won’t work as “believe all women” if a woman was accused as perpetrator and claiming she is not). A true feminist wouldn’t argue against this. Because then it wouldn’t be gender inclusive so not true to gender equality.

I think this sub would benefit from reading up on concepts instead of joining the breeding ground of negativity and just believing things. MGTOW started wholesome and then things became twisted. Men’s rights is wholesome. But people claiming they are anti-feminist is not helping your guys’ cause because feminism does include men’s rights. You will win an argument with “the crazy feminist” if you cite that feminism is about gender equality. If you hear them talking shit about transgender or putting down men, then they are not a feminist because that is at its root not feminism. It’s not representative of the ideology and they are just an asshole.

You are a feminist just as me if you support gender equality rights which includes men’s rights. Feminism is not just a woman thing. I’m not a woman anyways.

YES EXACTLY, to your last line. feminism is the closest thing to “gender equality advocates”. This is a branch and evolution to the feminism premise.

[–]bearclaw5 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bearclaw5 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Few_Poetry820[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gamerlololdude 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Space to vent?
Author	Few_Poetry820
Upvotes	14
Comments	48
Date	February 25, 2022 8:33 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/t1dsl2/space_to_vent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/space-to-vent.1210756 https://theredarchive.com/post/1210756

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