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Any comments on this article? (or any that exists from other researchers)

mohyo324

August 5, 2023
10 upvotes
/r/MensRights

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4530686/#B85

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Post Information
Title Any comments on this article? (or any that exists from other researchers)
Author

mohyo324

Upvotes 10
Comments 26
Date August 5, 2023 2:07 PM UTC
(3 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/15iwn2w/any_comments_on_this_article_or_any_that_exists/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/any-comments-on-this-article-or-any-that-exists.1227563
https://theredarchive.com/post/1227563
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Comments

[–]63daddy 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

It’s based on the assumption that lower women’s representation must be based in discrimination and then theorizes where discrimination may be at play.

Just a feminists refuse to acknowledge non discriminatory reasons why women work less and earn less, this article refuses to address the legitimate non-discriminatory reasons why fewer women may rise to leadership positions.

For example:

  1. It’s only recently that women have started outnumbering men in medicine, but it can take a couple decades to rise into a chair or other leadership position. Perhaps in 2 decades, there will be more women in such positions.

  2. Women are much more likely to drop out of the workforce and this includes education, so fewer women will have the experience to become chair or other such leadership positions.

  3. It could be women simply don’t seek such positions as much as men. These positions are often a lot of extra work for little extra pay. The article from what I saw completely omits how many women compared to men actually seek such positions.

When I worked in higher education, there was an effort to groom women for leadership positions but most quit working before reaching that level.

This article isn’t an open minded inquiry as to why fewer women rise to higher positions. It starts with the thesis it must be caused by discrimination and only entertains ideas fitting that thesis, ignoring all other explanations.

[–]phoenician_anarchist 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

On a similar note:

There is the argument of Equality (equality of opportunity) vs. Equity (equality of outcome), but it's the same damn thing. They come from the position of everyone being exactly the same (it's all social constructs, remember) so if there is any difference in outcome, the only possible explanation is that there's a difference in opportunity.

Equality vs. Equity is just a distraction.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

That's a very good answer! But the author mentions this point down at the article i believe she says:

"It is certainly true that men and women have different roles outside of academic medicine or outside of other positions. So it may be that more women choose not to engage in what would be a 50-, 60-, 70-hour work week whether its law, medicine, or whatever. So there are a couple of things to point out there. Women without children face these same kinds of barriers. So children are not the only issue. Also, if you look at cohorts that are self-selected for wanting academic careers — if you look at cohorts of K-award holders — you can't even get a K-award unless you are really committed to wanting a R01 funded career. Right? That is one of the criteria. Research from Michigan has shown that women are less likely to go on for an R01 after a K-award. We are dissecting this now. We have actually got a sample where we've done text analysis of the critiques of K-awards given to male and female applicants — both the unfunded A0 and the funded A1 — and we have .done a content analysis of this. It is very interesting. The subtle differences align with gender stereotypes. As you all know, when you are reviewing a K-award, low productivity is a concern for every applicant. Right? But for men it is much more likely for the reviewer to say, “The low productivity was a concern and then there is a justification (ie, however, he was moving labs, he was learning a new technique).” So there is almost a role congruity. He has got to succeed! He is a guy! For the women it says, “Great concern about low productivity. We are concerned she doesn't have what it takes to be an independent investigator.” So there is also research showing that if you are working in a counter-stereotypical field — if you are a woman working toward being a leader in academic medicine — you actually respond differently to feedback. This has been shown for race as well. So you could give somebody the same feedback, and it would be much more likely to cause a woman to say, “Well they must be right I really don't have it,” and leave academics than it would a man who also is sort of reinforced with his role congruity. Yes, it is multifactorial, but I think we have to look at how even these subtle things can mount up. So when you are writing your K-award reviews, remember how the recipient may respond to that wording. You know maybe you should just say, “We are concerned about low productivity,” and stop there. If the men and women K-award holders are getting this different tone in their review, how is the institution responding to that? The mentors are reading this. The mentors are reading maybe she just doesn't have what it has to be. So I think it is very complex, but the first thing is to understand we are all victims of this. We have been raised in a society with messages that are reinforced over and over again. It doesn't make us bad people that we are unintentionally and unwittingly contributing to the perpetuation of bias in many ways. But we need to be aware of it. If you read Kahneman's Book (Thinking Fast and Slow) he talks about System 1 and System 2 thinking. We need to mobilize our System 2 thinking when we are engaged in these kinds of evaluative processes; to think about how we could be contributing to undermining our goal of bringing the best talent forward — the best talent in medicine — and being fair and egalitarian in our judgment and decision making."

so what do you think?

[–]63daddy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Having children isn’t the only reason women tend to work less than men and take on fewer extra responsibilities.

Where I worked, men on average had worked there twice as long. There were several men who worked in my department over 2 decades, but only 1 woman. Even though the number of men and women was roughly equal, there were few women who had the experience to move into leadership positions. One who did, decided it was too much work and resigned that position.

The article simply ignores such non discriminatory realities.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Sorry i edited my comment i pasted her whole response to this point sorry for the trouble but would be thankfull if you got back and gave it a read and tell me what do you think !

[–]63daddy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I still say the article is one-sided and omits all sorts of relevant non-discriminatory information. It doesn’t address how qualified the women are compared to the men. It doesn’t address how many women actually seek such positions.

It would be like me writing an article about all the ways colleges must be discriminating against men in yoga and palates programs, refusing to acknowledge perhaps men just prefer other activities. There are many female dominated areas, it doesn’t mean it’s due to discrimination against men.

If I flip a coin 10 times and get 7 heads, and 3 tails it doesn’t prove discrimination in favor of heads.

Some of the points the article makes may be valid, but it’s one sided and agenda driven, omitting relevant information and many possible explanations.

[–]neveragoodtime 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That’s an interesting point. I’ve always heard of it’s not 50/50 it must be because of discrimination. But that is ridiculous for the reasons you state, there are proportions still well within the expected and probable outcomes. Also, if women are over-represented in some fields, education, nursing, then mathematically they have to be underrepresented in other fields. By cherry picking those fields, they guarantee they get the answer they wanted. But you can’t resolve underrepresentation without addressing overrepresentation. You have to tell women to stop staying home and taking care of their families, and stop being nurses and be scientists instead, choices that they freely made and prefer.

[–]63daddy 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. Even when both options are equal we can’t expect equality. If I toss a coin ten times the odds are far against getting 5 tails and 5 heads. Getting an unequal distribution is far more likely.

Of course when it comes to men and women, all things aren’t equal. They have different ambitions, have different career lengths, etc.

Your point about under representation in some areas being balanced by over representation in other areas is a flaw I see all the time. Take more men going into some STEM majors for example. Well, if more women go into art, theatre, education, gender studies, religion, psychology, sociology, etc., the balance has to be made up somewhere.

If more women than men cut their careers short, then fewer will be in a position to become senior management. That’s simply the demographics, not discrimination.

Add: The article doesn’t go into any of this. It’s essentially a bias of omission.

[–]KochiraJin 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

you can’t resolve underrepresentation without addressing overrepresentation. You have to tell women to stop staying home and taking care of their families, and stop being nurses and be scientists instead, choices that they freely made and prefer.

The real question is why this needs to be resolved in the first place. If the individuals in question are able to choose what and how they work, what's the problem? I would think that giving the individual the freedom to choose is better than trying to manipulate people into the careers you think they should have.

[–]neveragoodtime 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, not only is it an impossible goal, it’s a bad goal.

[–]Current_Finding_4066 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Women are dominating medical sciences and the medical field in general, obviously the author claiming women are discriminated against in this field is a fool.

What I see is that more and more research that is not funded by feminist groups shows that men are discriminated against. People are actually afraid to slight a woman and be called a misogynist. Due to the drive to increase the number of women everywhere, women actually receive preferential treatment.

If some feel stupid cause they did not get their position based on merits, it is their problem.

[–]mohyo324[S] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are dominating medical sciences and the medical field in general

Idk but here they are talking about medical professions (especially high ones) and medical students too (the medical field in general) with sources are there any stronger evidence that says otherwise?

What I see is that more and more research that is not funded by feminist groups shows that men are discriminated against.

Could be the case from a personal experience i can say media/academia is extremely biased to feminism Bur i can't say this as an absolute truth

Also this research is funded???

If some feel stupid cause they did not get their position based on merits, it is their problem.

Yes but the number of women in these positions is very small it could indicate bias or even discrimination?

I know this is unrelated to men's rights so feel free not to respond

[–]ehWoc 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are many articles that conclude the same thing across many countries, is all I know.

[–]Major-Donkey-60581 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It doesn’t fit the worldview I determined is true. I feel that men are the victims in the workplace and no peer reviewed journal is going to change my mind. It’s propaganda.

[–]hospital_hypothesis -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Propaganda

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Why?

[–]hospital_hypothesis 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

None of this is real. The posts are in my profile.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

What does this have to do with discrimination against women in the medical field? Don't get me wrong your info is valuable (part 1 is missing tho i think) but it's irrelevant

[–]hospital_hypothesis 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Because the discrimination is not real, it's cherry picked data.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Does there exist any data arguing the opposite?

[–]hospital_hypothesis 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This article's argument is very weak to begin with, they just showed a disparity and then assumed causation over correlation with very little demonstration of reasoning. The reason men make it to those positions more frequently in academia is the same reason why women make up 80% of psychology or 70% of school principles or head teachers. Biology.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But that's only two important jobs that involve leadership are there other examples?

[–]So-Contribution 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Cultural stereotypes continue to characterize women as “communal” (eg, kind, dependent, nurturing) and deficient in “agentic” traits (eg, logical, independent, strong) that stereotypically characterize men

It's not just a cultural stereotype. It's based on biological differences between men and women. These differences then impact the culture, and culture reinforces them. You can see a large amount of overlap between all kinds of cultures and tribes all over the world. You can even observe many of the same roles in animals.

Of course, biology doesn't fit in the academic dogma of the day.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wait animals do gender roles too? Sounds interesting asf is there any research to it?

[–]rabel111 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is an opinion piece based on feminist ideological dialogues and principles. Real studies undertaken with rigor, have shown that women are given preference.

If you want to generate discussion, please don't drop feminist hate speech as a discussion point.

[–]mohyo324[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not at all brother ! Have some faith.

I posted it here originally just to see if there are any researchers who commented on it it's extremely hard to find paper opposing feminism outside of this sub

No hate intended 🙏

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