I met one of you, and you were a cunt. A look at the ethics of seduction and a field report.

Kappio · 2013-05-21T05:06:31+00:00

Why does Asian Dude have to be a sedditor :S?

Exalted_Leader_Morse · 2013-05-21T05:55:47+00:00

It looks like there is a bit of contention defining the problem. Obviously, no true PUA would ever do anything like this, so let's start by trying to summarize what a "true PUA" is about, vs "one of those guys."

A True PUA:

Is about personal enrichment.
Is out for fun, and girls (boys) are fun.
Is outcome independent.
Convinces them to do what they already know they want to do and...
knows when to back off if they don't want to do.

That other guy:

Is after sex
Coerces their victim to do as they please
Is pushy, overly physical, and potentially violent
Is not really in control of themselves, or the situation.

There seems to be a an over-arching theme in these characteristics. One set EMPOWERS and creates positive worth for all involved parties. The second creates a power imbalance, and subsequent outcome imbalance the disfavors the target.

In Kantian Deontology there are two classical tests for the ethical worth of an action. If everyone did an action in the extreme and society would still function, then it can be considered good, or at worst neutral. The other test is that people must be considered valuable in their own right. They must not be a means to an end. Hmm...that second test seems to be topical.

Bam! Ethics!

birdwontquit · 2013-05-21T05:41:45+00:00

I'm not going to address specifics of your story, as they are largely irrelevant. You met a shitty guy. He employed seduction techniques, and therefore you've concluded seduction techniques are shitty. That's a logical fallacy, transitivity doesn't apply here. Ethics are independent of the techniques espoused in this community.

There is one point I'd like to discuss. The use of the word manipulation has a negative connotation to it. When does something become manipulation? I'm a funny guy, I make people laugh a lot. I make women laugh a lot. Women like my sense of humour. Is my making jokes manipulating them? It's a skill I've developed, it makes people like me and think I'm witty and intelligent (which I am). Women also like when I take charge, have confidence to express my intentions and lead interactions. Is that manipulation? I think you need to define your terms before using them.

It always bothers me that self-improvement is considered admirable in every aspect of life, except with the opposite sex. If I learn to cook, play an instrument, take public speaking lessons, take a class on negotiating to do better in business, all of these are considered admirable, but to try and be better at seduction - a critical part of a high quality life, according to some studies THE critical part - is manipulative. It's ridiculous.

TexasRanger_ · 2013-05-21T05:26:18+00:00

Too much of the, "I could have kicked his ass but I didn't" bullshit. And you carry that psych education and your marine corps service around like its a gold medal, always trying to show it off whenever you can (That is, if it's even true). This subreddit is about gathering and sharing information and swapping stories. Its not about proving that you're better then some schmuck that was hitting on your friend.

thebizniss · 2013-05-21T04:55:40+00:00

He lost his cool, that's not seduction. Should have told him to diffuse with humor.

VampireCampfire · 2013-05-21T04:53:50+00:00

Yeah, only PUA's from the seddit community hit on girls. You sound like a hypocrit. By saying that you are so much better than this guy but then constantly reassuring us that you "could" have beat him up and done this and that makes you sound like a bit of a douche. Having a psychology degree doesn't mean you're telepathic or better than anyone else. And being half-Asian doesn't give you warrant to be racist against Asians. This whole story just makes you sound super pompous, really. Learn from it.

squidward4444 · 2013-05-21T05:53:51+00:00

My favorite part was how you strategically waited to reveal to us that you are Asian. I was all like, "that comment was racist yo!" Then you were all like, "nuh uh uh, I'm half Asian." It was in that moment I realized I was dealing with someone with a background in psychology and social stuff.

rztzz · 2013-05-21T05:13:24+00:00

Just yesterday this like 33 year old guy was in my college library at one of those huge tables you see at law schools. There was an attractive (8, athletic) girl who was probably 21, and she glowed. Every guy at that table noticed her whether he admitted it or not. The 33 year old guy simply leered though. He was constantly staring at her. Following her butt when she got up to plug in her laptop. After a while I got protective, and genuinely wanted the guy to just cool it and look at his book.

Tldr we all get peotective of girls, and hate guys we dont approve of. I don't know how this is directly tied to pua

Serpenthum · 2013-05-21T05:17:22+00:00

Ive been clubbin enough times to know that a good half of the guys in a club would do what you just described, calling him a pua or a seduction artist is pretty inaccurate. All this aside i feel like you were threatened by his presence and your first reaction is to cockblock. Most guys from clubs will pull the same shit you described but if you don't like him just talk to your friend who was with him and ask her what she thinks. If she likes him then let it be, if not tell him you're leaving and he'll get the message and fuck off. I think realistcly the message your giving is pretty off, i disregarded the whole fight thing because that just seemed like heated drunk talk and has nothing to do with seduction.

Just a tip next time, don't try to analyze people because you're a paycologist and see if they are trying to game girls, thats really pointless and you won't have a very good time if thats what you're focusing your time and energy on

destinys_parent · 2013-05-21T06:21:49+00:00

So you're the asshole that cockblocked me!

UnclePaul50 · 2013-05-21T05:55:13+00:00

Whether or not this guy was representative of the community, I think the points you bring up at the end are valid and it's worthwhile to raise them.

2013-05-21T05:33:04+00:00

In addition to the other comments, this is far from being the only PUA community on the internet.

2013-05-21T05:53:49+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2013-05-21T06:00:02+00:00

There needs to be more awareness in this community. Women are people, not just notches on your fucking belt. Their friends are people, not just obstacles.

People's value is subjective. For this individual (who probably isn't even a Sedditor) women are just notches in his belt. You don't have to like that, you could find it (with good reason) despicable. The point is as with most ethics discussions there is no clear line in the sand.

I feel like I should make a separate comment for this statement. My final 2 cents are steeped in Ad hominem but I feel it ties to strongly to the topic to ignore who you are. Personally, I wouldn't take ethical advice on the value of people from someone trained to be a killer.

voud · 2013-05-21T07:05:59+00:00

There is no need to have a discussion on the ethics just because some guy tried to get with your drunk friend, which may or not be from the seddit community. The topic is not even about the ethics, that would interest all of us.It is about you showing how hypocrit you are.

VampireCampfire · 2013-05-21T04:56:18+00:00

I'd really like comments. I know ethics can seem boring or pointless, but I think it's important to occasionally talk about, especially in a community that discusses how to actively manipulate people. Manipulation isn't wrong in and of itself, but it can be a very powerful tool. Power should always be accompanied by ethics, lest we walk descend into darkness.

Title	I met one of you, and you were a cunt. A look at the ethics of seduction and a field report.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	11
Comments	66
Date	May 21, 2013 4:22 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1eqtzp/i_met_one_of_you_and_you_were_a_cunt_a_look_at/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/i-met-one-of-you-and-you-were-a-cunt-a-look-at-the.1352662 https://theredarchive.com/post/1352662

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