What do you think of the phrase toxic masculinity?

DistrictAccurate · 2024-06-16T16:00:05+00:00

I strongly recommend using the term (internalized) misandry to describe (among others) the enforcement of conformity to what some describe as "traditional gender roles/norms". The restriction of men's lives, wellbeing, emotions, safety, autonomy, expression and overall freedom via the (at times) violent, traumatizing and life-threatening enforcement of conformity to misandristic rules certainly fits my definition of misandry. I do not believe that this is adequately described as anti-femininity, either. Instead, I regard it as (in this case: misandristic) anti-non-conformity.

I regard the label (and judging by its usage and some of the countless definitions, the "concept") as harmful and misandristic for the reasons I outlined in the comments linked below. Please read them and let me know if we disagree. I currently believe that calling it misandry is important to ensure a consistent and (more) accurate representation of men's issues. Downplaying these matters is part of this very issue. Even if the proposed alternatives like "toxic gender expectations" were an appropriate description of the issues with the things it would be apllied to in practice, there is an argument to be made that moving past misandry requires moving past our gendered reluctance to avoid having to acknowledge its existence and severity by using that term. It's a common theme. See rape ("made to penetrate", if even... or "being persuasive"), see IPV ("boundary crossings"...), being beaten, kidnapped, and held prisoner as a cultural practice ("having fun" and "nothing more than a game"), see mgm ("voluntary medical circumcision"...), see matriarchy ("gender equality" by one scholars definition, I am not kidding, see the quote), ...

Some comments on the matter: here, here, here, here, here, and here

Tevorino · 2024-05-19T18:07:38+00:00

It's one of several misandrist phrases that earns the label of "misandrist" from its name alone. That is, even if I buy the feminist claim that this phrase isn't actually about expressing hatred of men, and is just for labeling objectionable attitudes and behaviours among men, that still leaves the following questions:

If the intention isn't to foment hatred of men, then why did you choose this name for it?
If the intention isn't to foment hatred of men, then why are you discussing this phenomenon as if it exclusively applies to men?

In my experience, feminists tend to be conveniently (for them, not for me) vague in their descriptions of what "toxic masculinity" even is. For example, I have been told that adults telling boys something like "be strong, don't be a crybaby" is "toxic masculinity". Three objections to that immediately come to mind:

Context matters. Without specifying the scenario in which this directive is being given, we can't properly assess whether or not this directive is reasonable.
If the directive is reasonable in a particular scenario, is it still toxic in that scenario? Does it even make sense for something, in a specific context, to simultaneously be both reasonable and toxic?
Even if boys hear this directive much more often than girls, this is still something that is told to girls. If the real goal is to analyse problematic attitudes in an effort to achieve positive change, then how does it make sense to exclude women and girls from the analysis? Excluding them makes perfect sense if the real goal is to foment hatred of men and boys.

So far, feminists have a perfect track record of noping out of the discussion if I try to engage them on these points, which suggests to me that they know perfectly well that they are talking out of their arses.

THEbeautifuLIE · 2024-05-20T01:46:22+00:00

Men determine what masculinity is. . .as it’s the typical, average, standard attributes, traits, behaviors of men. Women determine what femininity is. . .as it’s the typical, average, standard attributes, traits, behaviors of women.

Masculinity, quite literally, CAN NOT be “toxic”. There is no trait or behavior that all men overwhelming possess and engage in that can be considered “toxic”; whether or not women understand, appreciate or benefit from it. It’s simply a vehicle that every man can choose to drive in whatever manner he deems. Neither the journey nor the destination make the vehicle “toxic”. It can’t be! What could a person use their car for that would lead people to call the car “toxic”?

If one person uses bleach to clean their clothes & someone else splashes it In people’s faces, trying to blind them - was the 2nd person using “toxic bleach”? No - the bleach is just the bleach.

Weird how: no matter how any woman acts in general, during her weekly-ish cycle, during her monthly cycle, throughout a pregnancy, during labor &/or childbirth, approaching & experiencing menopause or when she’s stressed, exhausted, frustrated & irritated, angry, upset, etc etc etc - every woman gets to be treated on a case-by-case basis with no labels that would include anything all women are or possess. No matter how many women murder or SA children, kidnap & traffick young girls, sexually abuse other women, physical assault young children, physically assault MEN (IN PUBLIC!) — somehow “she” (not women) may have been a bad person. “She” (not women) is responsible for her own actions (sometimes) — not feminism, femininity, estrogen, etc. Men need to stop trying to “act” as tho it’s benevolent or kind/caring to accept some description or definition that makes “toxic masculinity” a thing. It isn’t. . .& it doesn’t make you a better man by going along with the absurdity of it.

bruhholyshiet · 2024-05-19T21:09:37+00:00

I'm not a fan of it, but not because I think it means "all masculinity is toxic". I don't think that's what people mean with that phrase, more often than not.

But still, I really don't like it since the people that say it, kinda use it to subtly victim blame men for their problems or to oversimplify them.

"Men's issues are because of toxic masculinity. If only they cried more, showed their feelings more and weren't so misogynistic, they would be fine."

It basically implies that men's problems are all in their heads and that if only they were a bit more emotionally available or whatever the fuck, they would be happy. As if there wasn't a whole society mocking and shaming them for being anything other than an uncomplaining and stoic rock.

I also find extremely pompous and self serving how feminists think that calling out toxic masculinity is "proof" that they "care about men too". It isn't. It's just a token and empty gesture of pretending they give a rat's ass about men and pat themselves in the back for it.

CatacombsRave · 2024-05-20T10:35:14+00:00

It’s a misandrist phrase that harms impressionable, young boys (and grown men) and is horrible for their self-esteem. There is only toxic behavior. The fact that feminists attribute universally-bad behaviors to masculinity and men and still don’t see how it’s sexist to do so is flooring.

Mycroft033 · 2024-05-19T20:07:11+00:00

The term “toxic masculinity” grammatically means that the masculinity is the thing that is toxic. It objectively does NOT mean “toxic standards for men”. Saying that allows misandrists to hide their hatred. If you mean toxic standards, then say toxic standards. Don’t use a term that definitionally applies the adjective “toxic” to masculinity. It’s not complicated. Toxic standards for men is not, never has been, and never will be “toxic masculinity”. Even if they happen to be perpetuated by men. It’s the exact same reason why toxic standards for women that happen to be perpetuated by women isn’t “toxic femininity”. Stop calling men toxic for the standards they are held to, because that’s exactly what you’re doing right now.

And no, they’re not social constructs. That stance is extremely ignorant of the fundamentals of humanity. It’s perpetuated by the people who want to destroy the family unit and through this, depopulate the earth. Humans live on less than 10% of all the habitable land on earth. We are not bacteria in a Petri dish that simply use up resources without innovating. Those ideas all come from the same source. It’s not a scientific stance, even if scientists believe it. Scientists used to believe the earth was flat. That didn’t make it correct. The earth didn’t suddenly become round when we realized it wasn’t flat. Just because some or even the majority of scientists believe something does not make it true. So don’t buy into the depopulation agenda that wants you to think men and women are just societal constructs.

YetAgain67 · 2024-05-20T19:44:35+00:00

It's bullshit, of course. Because it no matter how deep into the theoretical one wants to get to justify it - it's a term that essentializes male behavior as inherent in their maleness. Some may go deeper and blame it on societal conditioning of the "patriarchy" but they're still just saying "male behavior as dictated by male-run society."

What are some of the common, everyday sort of things tagged as being "toxically masculine?" It' just asshole behavior. Not ONE thing that has ever been labelled as toxic masculinity is something only MEN do.

Toxic masculinity just means = being an asshole while male. Others have pointed it out. It's called "toxic masculinity" for men but "internalized misogyny" for women. And that right there says everything in a nutshell.

And the term is so ubiquitous now that, like all of the buzzwords, you can just toss it at somebody to win a moral high ground as soon as they say something you find disagreeable.

The thing is, there is always the nugget of these terms that I can entertain and get behind. Like the OP says "there are forms of toxic stereotypes ABOUT masculinity that are forced on men."

THAT should be the real avenue of discussion. But it's not. The term itself enforces that toxic masculinity is something men actively participate in and perform because they are broken and need to correct themselves while "internalized misogyny" is something done TOO women that they need deprogramming from.

Internalized misogyny is framed as "women are victim of this. This is something done to women." And toxic masculinity is framed as "this who men are." Even if someone is in a roundabout way saying that men ARE victims of toxic masculinity, the baseline empathy they extend to women with internalized misogyny is not there.

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