On Toxic Masculinity and Bitterness of the Red Pill

Invalidity · 2014-05-09T22:24:55+00:00

I do genuinely believe that a lot of friendly bluepill guys aren't looking for sex, but rather are doing what they do because of imposed societal guilt. Because being born a man, we have to assume fault for our gender.

Guys who do "nice" things to get sex... they tend to learn that it doesn't work, and they learn in a timely manner... But the guys who have it worst are the apologists. You know those guys, the ones who say, "I'd like to speak on behalf of all men and say that we are not all like those douchebags/assholes/jerks/etc."

They wear their veil of guilt and try to make "amends", to possibly try to restore a reputation they feel like they lost. Those are the hopeless guys.

FortunateBum · 2014-05-10T00:25:40+00:00

I'm getting sick of this:

Criticizing women = bitter, angry, misogyny, hate speech

Criticizing men = feminism, you go girl!

No. Let's not allow women to always make this the case.

isthatyourdaughter · 2014-05-09T22:46:43+00:00

The funny part is, I still consider myself a feminist. I am a feminist because I have a sister. And a mother. And I may have a daughter some day. I believe women should have equal rights and not feel bad about themselves.

And so, you still don't quite get it...

However, women feeling better about themselves should not come at the expense of men.

...because that is the only way for feminism to succeed.

I know it's hard to come to terms with, but feminism has not had net positive benefits for society. It's like communism-it can theoretically work in very small communities, but once it reaches a certain population limit, it turns everything to shit.

Hateblade · 2014-05-10T00:25:26+00:00

Wow. Dude came in here and admitted to wearing a damn dress to a Bjork concert. I don't even know if I know how to comment on that.

Dreamtrain · 2014-05-09T22:57:09+00:00

But then I slide back into my old ways at the worst possible times. I was born a slave in chains, and now I’m free. But I’ve lived so many years as a slave that it has become part of me.

This is something I am struggling with. I understand TRP, have seen it work before my eyes, both through other men (who at the time I denounced as douchebags) and through my own experience as I apply it, but time to time I find myself going back and I have to make a conscious effort to be selfish and be a person of presence. When that one GayLubeOil guy posted about his dark triad episode after using testosterone I was marveled but that comes with great risks. I'm hoping it will only take hard work and be naturally for me eventually.

cooltrip · 2014-05-09T23:29:55+00:00

There is a simple rule that works like a very good "trick" to make you the implementation of the red pill in your life easier. The rule would go like this:

" Position yourself at a mental starting point of zero friendship to women, zero esteem of women, and zero nice consideration of women. At this starting point, you have a bad opinion of women, and you act toward them like you act toward any other person you have a bad opinion about: avoiding them. "Maintain this frame" toward every given woman, unless and until this woman treats you well and gives you good reasons for you to esteem her and to treat her well ".

Under the application of this rule, your ending point is the same as a beta's: treating women nice. But you'll treat women nice as women themselves deserve it and treat you nice too (shouldn't it be the logical thing?), while beta treats women nice because women don't treat him nice.

In other words: this rule doesn't exclude the acknowledgement that women should be treated nicely; it just establishes that women should be treated nicely as long as they treat you nicely too.

So remember, if you are not a beta, then Starting point "zero".

After all, if women don't want a world where men treat them nice (since women do nothing to deserve this nice treatment or to ask for it), then why should men treat women nice? what right do we men have to decide that our amiability is what women want or need, if women themselves don't ask for it and do nothing to deserve it?

2014-05-10T02:24:21+00:00

Toxic masculinity exists for a reason. I was bullied in middle school and sensitive masculinity would have put me in counseling and had me express my feelings or some shit, while my parents hovered around in case I blew my brains out because someone was sending me mean messages online.

Toxic masculinity, which I was lucky enough to have in my life, had me go join the wrestling team, probably the best thing I did for myself in all of my childhood. Middle school wrestling was some of the most painful, embarassing, gruelling shit, and the one time I complained, my coach mocked me for a week. Yet I began to understand that everyone who had picked on me WASN'T actually being toxic, they were just trying to get me to quit being a bitch. No one wanted me to grow from a fat middle schooler to a fat high schooler, so they were trying to force me to change. Perhaps to spare themselves the awkwardness of having to deal with me, perhaps because they just wanted to show everyone nearby how much better they were. The fact remains, the toxic masculinity that made me miserable was showing me where I needed to improve.

"Man up" is criticized heavily in our modern society and boards like MRA as being so horrible, boys need sensitivity and support, yadda yadda yadda. And see, I agree 1000% with the idea that boys need that TOO. Boys need the masculine guidance of the father, AND the feminine support of the mother. Leadership / challenges / tough love on one hand makes you strong and happy in the LONG run, whereas feminine nurturing keeps the child confident, happy, and secure in the short run.

Now in schools and homes, you have primarily WOMEN raising the children. These women have an investment in raising the child as docile and mild as possible, since doing so makes their job easier. So in short, the kids receive neither. Quasi-feminine love from the beta father, quasi-masculine and feminine love from the mother who is trying to occupy both roles since the father gets less time with the kid, and this weird indoctrinating establishment-love the kids learn at the school.

Toxic masculinity can take it too far, but it is essential to society.

re-rebuild · 2014-05-10T03:59:24+00:00

Deconstructing the conditioning that many of us have been born into is a long and painful process. Your post is a reminder of this.

"The funny part is, I still consider myself a feminist. I am a feminist because I have a sister. And a mother. And I may have a daughter some day. I believe women should have equal rights and not feel bad about themselves."

You can accept these aspects and not think yourself a feminist. Women have the rights that men have under the law in Western nations. Consider the messages and actions - both overtly and implicitly - that are propagated by the third wave.

TRP-Talk · 2014-05-10T02:50:02+00:00

I want to thank you, insickness, for having the courage and eloquence to write what you did. When you stated that as a younger man you had only the desire to do what's right, I am reminded of myself at that age. I too desired only to do what I thought was right, and that desire led me into incredible suffering for reasons that are much the same as your own. Although I did not go to quite the same lengths as you did to excoriate masculinity from my identity, and although I never went to a Bjork concert in a dress, I too publicly stated that I was a feminist, that I was ashamed of masculinity, and that I desired nothing more than platonic friendship with women.

Like yourself, I was deluded into thinking that sensitivity, compassion, politeness, self-negation, and respectful distance demonstrated to women that I was a man of exceptional quality, and therefore worthy of intimacy. I too was like so many other foolish men who invest good deeds into a woman, as though she were a bank, with the implicit-but-unstated expectation that she would love me, cherish me, fuck me. She never did. I spent years in the strangest limbo where women would praise my virtues, state that I would make an excellent father, and absolutely refuse to fuck me. When I did get laid, it was always by women who were below my sense of what I truly deserved. I never saw that my disinterest in them, and their attraction to me, were correlated. I too was ignorant of why women weren't attracted to me.

I am writing this reply because I think you're spot on when you say that many young men are led astray from realizing their own masculine excellence because they listen to what women say they want from men. In my own case, the women I was attracted to kept insisting that what they really wanted from me was unconditional friendship, and because I was a fool I listened to their words, interpreted them literally, and did the best I could to become the best possible unconditional friend. In other words, I became the beta orbiter par excellence, and it was absolutely awful. By the time I had graduated university, I was single, miserable, and incredibly bitter about women. I rarely went out, I didn't game women because they were all stupid, and I did the best thing I ever could have done: I walked away from everything I thought I was, nuked every beta-orbiter relationship I had with a woman, and found work on a farm where I had neither the time or inclination to give a fuck about women at all.

I wish that I could share with you some of the journals that I kept during that period. For my entire life I had desired nothing more than to be desired and loved by women, and all the effusive romantic poetry in the world could never express how much delight I took in their loveliness, but in spite of that I had nothing but bitterness and contempt for even the thought of femininity. I didn't know any women. I didn't want to go out to meet them. There were no women in my immediate environment. Idealistic fantasies about women were utterly without cause in those circumstances. I admitted to myself that everything I thought I was doing right was absolutely misguided, and because I had no idea what to do about it, I literally gave up on women entirely. I threw my hopes and dreams about women into the garbage, and consciously determined that fate would decide whatever would happen next. In the mean time, I devoted myself entirely to work, and the contemplation and exploration of life's mysteries. Perhaps you ought to drop this inanity about still being a feminist, and start from scratch.

Have you read Camus' "The Myth of Sisyphus"? You should. You do not sometimes feel like Sisyphus, YOU FUCKING ARE SISYPHUS! Granted, Sisyphus is an allegorical metaphor about the human condition, but that's YOUR condition! Human life is futility. Nobody ever wins. Everybody dies. Everybody's boulder rolls back down the hill. Everybody knows this, and yet we are still obligated to give it the ol' college try. But why bother when life is full of suffering and misery and heartbreak and death? It's not a flippant question. You're absolutely going to die, in 200 years nobody will know you were alive, so why live? Why bother? Agent Smith is looking at Neo, but the questions are directed at you... I wonder if you consciously and deliberately get up knowing you're about to die. In the event you decide to start pushing the boulder, why not do it with PASSION, with VIGOR, with RAGE AGAINST THE DYING OF THE LIGHT? It's not that the unexamined life is not worth living, but that the un-lived life is not worth examining. Camus ends his essay with, "The struggle itself [...] is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy." Do you understand?

Secondly, don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. I wonder if you realize that the past is GONE, OVER, DONE, EXISTING NOWHERE BUT THE PRESENT, WITHIN YOUR MEMORY ALONE. The past is a story you habitually tell yourself to give you a continuous sense of identity, but what good does this story do you? Why are you so attached to a story in which you have no exuberance for suffering? That's all life is, suffering. Why not love it? That's all it will ever be, pushing a boulder up a hill. You could have used those same keystrokes to assert that you are an astonishing man, but instead you used them to reinforce the story that you have a little bitch in your head telling you it would be easier if you just stopped pushing.

STOP TELLING YOURSELF THAT STORY!

You're being the person who, when meeting someone new, introduces yourself as who you were, not who you're passionately becoming. That's bad. It's bad that you do that. Stop doing that. Author a new story. This is your right. Your duty. Your calling. You're writing the story of your life with every choice you make, with every action you take, and with ever tale you tell about what it means to you. I call upon you, in the strongest possible terms, to recognize the metaphorical significance of this scene. You're Goku. Your friends are being killed. Are you going to fight? Are you going to win? You can't win, that's fucking Frieza! His power level is over 1,000,000 and you're just a monkey! The only possible solution is transcendence. Go beyond what you think you are, and affix your identity not with who you were, but what you can be. This is the only means of becoming that very thing. Leave these childish things behind you, and become a man.

dman8000 · 2014-05-10T05:21:09+00:00

This needs to be stickied or at least added to the sidebar.

Dreamtrain · 2014-05-09T21:11:32+00:00

[permanently deleted]

joe_bruised_ego · 2014-05-10T03:35:42+00:00

I’m one of those guys who was described as a “TRPer” or whatever, and that’s how I discovered this sub. It has, I believe, really helped me let go of a lot of the bitterness I had toward women.

Our society treats women like broken men, which we have to make special concessions for if they want to be “equal”. Because of this we just sort of ignore or vilify women for what they do naturally.

I’m relatively new to applying TRP philosophy in my own life, but the way I interact with women, and their response to me, has already been way more positive.

Title	On Toxic Masculinity and Bitterness of the Red Pill
Author	insickness
Upvotes	39
Comments	27
Date	May 9, 2014 8:55 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/255q7v/on_toxic_masculinity_and_bitterness_of_the_red/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/on-toxic-masculinity-and-bitterness-of-the-red.15222 https://theredarchive.com/post/15222

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