For the love of God can someone explain to an autistic more on frame?

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September 18, 2017
8 upvotes

Idk why this is such a hard concept for me to grasp. I have literally read everything there is to read about it. And it's plastered everywhere frame. Frame. Frame.

But I just am having such a hard time applying it to my own life. I get it's my reality. I get it's how I see the world. I get it's what I will and won't entertain

But I am having a hard time applying it to ALL areas of my life. How to Strengthen it. How to hold it. When to recognize when I'm entering someone else's frame. How to prevent doing it.

Can you guys break it down or give me some Hard examples of both holding vs breaking frame in situations. Im intelligent but it's been very hard for me to grasp this concept. And I know it's everything.

I am constantly falling into my wife's frame and idk how I even end up there. Or how to stop it. This is a throw away and on an old account I'm told my frame is shit and it is. But I don't get wtf I'm doing so wrong. Or if I even understand how to fix it.


Post Information
Title For the love of God can someone explain to an autistic more on frame?
Author towaway123458
Upvotes 8
Comments 30
Date 18 September 2017 06:56 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205425
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/70x4hq/for_the_love_of_god_can_someone_explain_to_an/
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Red Pill terms found in post:
frame
Comments

[–]resolutions3162 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Frame is a muddy concept that's able to be interpreted in multiple ways. It's hard to grasp because it means slightly different things to different people.

For me, frame is "the narrative a person has in their head about what's happening."

Different narratives can come into conflict; eventually, one will win out, when the other person starts to subtly accept the other person's narrative.

Useful books:

Frame Control https://www.amazon.com/Frame-Control-Subconscious-Conversational-Dominance-ebook/dp/B014GMBQPK

When I Say No, I Feel Guilty https://www.amazon.com/When-Say-No-Feel-Guilty-ebook/dp/B004IK8Q22/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1505766023&sr=1-1&keywords=when+i+say+no+i+feel+guilty

Never Split The Difference https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended-ebook/dp/B014DUR7L2/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1505766002&sr=1-1&keywords=never+split+the+difference

[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Additional resources. Good stuff.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Things happen to a man without frame. A man with frame happens to the world.

[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

+1

[–]FlyingSexistPig6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

There are underlying assumptions in everything that someone says. When your GF say, "Did you take the trash out?" There is the underlying assumption that it's your job to take out the trash, and that it's her job to harp on you about it. If you were to reply "no", she would follow up with a "Could you please do that now?" or something similar, reinforcing the worldview. You are completely in her frame now.

What if instead, you responded, "No, did you?"? You're pushing the question back on her. You're challenging this view that it's somehow your job to take out the garbage, or that it's her job to harp on you about it. If she responds to your question by saying that she thought it was your job to take out the garbage, then you could ask her if she also thought it was her job to harp on you about it.

You could ask her if she remembered to give you a blow job this morning, and then in the exact tone of voice she used, say, "Could you please do that now?"

The frame of how she said it matters. If she's assigning you chores, that's not okay. If she's going over a list of things that needs to be done, then it's probably okay.

Does that make more sense?

[–]sh0ckley2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

if she remembered to give you a blow job this morning

Priceless.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I had trouble with your example because it IS my job to take out the trash but its a great example anyway.

[–]2235522 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I am late 30's, and until I came here 9 months ago I had 0 frame, literally, all my life, I allowed other people or circumstances to dictate my life.

It took me 3 months to grasp the idea of frame, I am aware of it now, I can hold frame a lot of the time now, and the times when I do fail, I can clearly rationalize where and how I went wrong.

You put an example where you wife wants to talk. If you are in your frame You either want to talk to her, and say "Yeah lets talk", or if you are busy/or don't want to talk " Sorry, I am in the middle of something, lets talk at x time".

When you stop doing everything to speak with your wife, to make her feel better, OR to make yourself look like an attentive husband, you are in her frame.

Another example, recently I had to get a small dent fixed on my car. When I picked it up and came home, I saw that paint was not matched well. I was annoyed, and frustrated. The weak frame in me was trying to convince me that its ok, and its only a small area (my ego trying to avoid confrontation), the other part of me wanted the car fixed properly. I rang and said I am not happy with the paint job, the lady gave me a whole spill how they can never match it perfectly, etc, etc. The old me would have engaged her (deered) how its not matching, and it should be matching, and how others can do it better, instead all I wanted to say is that I am not happy with the job, and I would like it fixed properly. Eventually she gave up, and said bring it in to get it checked. I brought the car back, the sprayer had one look at it, and said he got the mix wrong, and if I can bring it back to get it redone, in that interaction all I said was " ok, thank you, lets set a date".

Things that worked for me, was starting to spend time by myself, and think on what I want to do, when you are around other people, its very easy to be influenced by someone else, especially when they have strong frame. Pay attention to other people, especially in confrontational situations, and watch if a person stands their ground assertively, or becomes passive/aggressive.

At home if I am unsure about something, I think what would I do if I was by myself, or single dad, how would I handle this particular situation, or how would I spend the day.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Read: How to win friends and influence people. My guess is you are too nice...not nice guy dismiss your needs nice guy, but nice guy I'll hear out your opinion and debate it nice guy.

If you give her an inch, she'll take a mile.

[–]Downhere_Seeds0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Draw a big circle around you, everything that is important to you put in side the circle with you: People, family, ideals, theories, truth, gadgets, etc. It's up to you to decide what is important inside the circle. You will protect everything inside this circle, keep the bad people and things out of the circle. The circle represents your boundaries, what you will allow, what you won't and what needs to go around. Your frame is protecting this boundary and HOW you protect this boundary.

These circles can overlap or collide, take for example money. It's probably in your circle and hers. Hopefully you are thinking about savings, but she may be thinking about buying an expensive pair of shoes. If you are in her frame she is spending money on whatever she wants and you aren't doing anything about it. If you hold frame, you are not allowing her to do this, or you may compromise and give her some, but less than she really wants.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

This is an overly simplistic explanation, but I view "frame" as being 100% in control of yourself. In control of your beliefs, your emotions and your behaviors.

Start with your belief. In every interaction, think: "Do I believe this person is entitled to X?"

X could be anything.

For example, do you believe her question deserves a serious answer? Or conversely, do you believe a expression of affection deserves to be reciprocated? It's not in her frame if you simply do what you believe in.

Now, this then leads to the problem that most betas' beliefs are fucked up. So you must also ask yourself if you're in control of your emotions.

Think: "Are my emotions being manipulated in this interaction?"

If she says something stupid or hateful and you get angry, sad, etc then you're in her frame...regardless of what you believe. Work on not being emotionally affected by your interactions with her.

Finally, you should ask who you are behaving and taking action for.

Think: "Am I doing X for her or for me?"

Let's say you're sitting in bed and she asks you to get up and get her some water. You may believe she has a right to have her thirst quenched. You may also not be emotionally affected by this request at all. But if you're taking action simply because she asked you to and you get nothing out of it except her happiness...you're in her frame.

A man with frame acts for himself for the benefit of himself, and sometimes these actions benefit other people, too. But the first and foremost reason is because doing X made YOU happy.

Does that help?

[–]towaway123458[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Yes it does. My issue is the anger part. I need to work on it. She will ask me questions. I don't feel like answering and I get soooo annoyed by it. Bc she will continue to press for an answer

"Huh? Huh!?"

"Baby! Answer me"

"You never want to talk"

Etc

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy

She does this because she knows that if she can just trip your trigger you'll cave on your stoic oak act and give her the drama/validation she wants.

Your frame is glass. Strong up to a point, then it shatters and you enter her frame. At that point she regains control. That's not actually what she wants. She wants you to be in control. But in her subconscious mind, she'd rather control the relationship than submit to a man weaker than her.

[–]towaway123458[S] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy

Well tonight I think I made a break though thank you for all the post. She was mad about dinner. She was making it and I didn't feel like waiting. I said Id eat now and then eat that later.

She got into a mood and threw on a pouty face. I didn't Allow it to phase me at all. I actually started to make the asparagus (I like to cook and still wanted to help just wasn't waiting for that to be done)

She continued to be in a bad mood. I grabbed her and said knock it off and kissed on the forehead. She said no!

I said yes and started kissing her neck and tickling her. She started laughing and that was the end of the bad mood.

[–]matrixtospartanatLVRed Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

That was good

[–]towaway123458[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Thank you but then I realized I actually might have broke frame. And she actually shoved it right in my face and made me think wow.

I ended up not eating before the dinner was ready. I got so caught up in making the asparagus. And putting dishes away. I didn't eat before like I wanted to. Ended up waiting.

After we ate. I said see everything Is fine. She said. "Yea because I bitched"

And I thought to myself. Fuck. She thinks she got her way because she bitched. So I said no that's not why.

She said why then?

I said because there wasn't enough room on the stove/counter to cook a second meal. Smirked. And went and sat down.

[–]Tebulus1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Then let her thinking/feeling pass you like the wind and do not DEER. The point of you having a frame is that it does not buckle under pressure or flow like water through the path of least resistance, it is just your iron will incarnate. Your wife may or may not respond well and thats ok, thats the whole point. Your indifference to her chaos is what will attract her to you and your leadership when internally she feels like shit is falling apart. The important takeaway from your exchange with your wife is that normally you would have crumbled and done whatever was necessary to stop her shitty attitude aka diving into her frame. The way you chose to act was to defuse her bullshit with a little kino and comfort and she responded well. In the future keep in mind there is no need to seek validation by saying things like "see everything was fine" as if you want her to confirm her own shitty attitude was ridiculous. She wont, and in your case you got a predictable result which was she rationalized the success was because she had to step up and bust your balls. Her behavior will improve as you do. Just keep going and don't sweat the little shit. The above exchange was net positive even if it was not 100%.

[–]towaway123458[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Awesome thank you for the feedback

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

There is an example: You are in her frame when you are arguing with her about stupid shit.

Although if your frame is really concerned about whether you eat before or after the asparagus then maybe the arguing about stupid shit is your frame after all?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Long journeys begin with a single step.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Women are experts at finding your thumbscrew. It is the whole purpose of dating.

[–]matrixtospartanatLVRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

When I hear the word, 'frame', I think of a door frame.

Through that door goes every word, every action, and every thought I choose to put into my world.

That frame shapes my presence I project into the world and influences how the world perceives and receives me.

That frame defines my values, my priorities, and is the final arbiter of who I am and present myself to be.

You are never without frame.

If you are not in your frame, you are in someone else's. This happens when your frame is weak, or almost nonexistent.

The REAL question becomes, how do you strengthen your frame?

Your frame is your mind.

Feed your mind. Develop it. Exercise it.

I use MRP for my frame. Works in marriage, work, kids, daily life.

Frame. What kind of man do you want to be? That's what you build your frame with.

I want to be strong, confident, the oak, the mountain, dependable, but also sexual, cocky funny, Alpha/Beta maybe 80/20 to 85/15 split.

In addition to MRP reading I've added some books on stoicism and Greek Philosophy. Working them in as I go.

You reap what you sow.

What are you sowing?

What are you feeding your mind?

If you aren't actively, consciously doing it, you are a product of your environment and that's why you feel so fucked up.

Take control of what goes in your eyes and ears at least part of the time and put shit in that you want to come out of your mouth and actions.

[–]Rian_StoneMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Autism is frame. You have reality, and it buckets for nothing

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

For the sake of giving you a different way of understanding this concept that I've used with people on the spectrum who had trouble with social cues:

Frame is the context of a situation, specifically based on whether you're doing something from a position of strength or a position of weakness. You can do the exact same action and it can be with a strong frame or a weak frame based on if you're doing it from a position of strength or a position of weakness, respectively. A strong frame is proactive and based primarily on dealing with things you can control. A weak frame is reactive and based primarily on dealing with things that you can't control.

Here's a simple, but instructive, example:

  • If you get your wife flowers purely because that's what you want to do, and you don't attach any kind of covert contract to it, but you just want to do something with your wife, and you don't care how she responds to it (or if she responds to it), then that is a strong frame.
  • If you get your wife flowers because you expect anything to happen as a result of getting her flowers that you do not have direct control over, like her liking the flowers or being happy or wanting to give you some pussy or appreciating you, then that's a weak frame.

I give this example because it's a case where you can do the exact same thing for two completely different reasons and they can be the result of two completely different frames with completely different results.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

You can think of frame in several ways.

Which also ties into your MAP(male action plan). But a MAP can just be part of your building of your frame.

So it's your foundation, your scaffolding... your worldview. How your family dynamics are.

When you're mired in someone else's frame they fit the facts to support it. ie. Wife gets what she wants or there will be an unhappy house. Wife sees you as a sniveling errand boy, so when you don't drop everything you are doing and go get her a glass of water the world turns upside down.

And important thing to focus on is how you want you want your life...starting from the small things to it's entirety to go, and build your frame around it so that those you are supposedly leading mold to you and not the other way around.

It's will.

You ever have a conversation with someone and they've clearly pigeonholed you into a category that you know doesn't fit your worldview? Do you find yourself conforming to how you think they perceive you? Sometimes even to your detriment? Weak frame. You're pliable and letting others dictate who you are.

People will see you how you see you, but if you're not a firmly established individual...they'll take shortcuts and pigeonhole you.

Do you want to be what you want? Living the life you want, having people see and respect you for who you see yourself and in your terms? Or just be an NPC in their game? It's establishing a powerful frame.

When we speak of the family life, if you've got a weak frame...generally the spouse steps up when they don't want to not only will you live in their frame, but you'll be punished for it as their resentment for having to lead comes to the forefront.

It's expectations.

It's will.

It can indicate things large and small in your personal circles and it's a hard concept to grasp. But you will.

[EDIT] and as for the failing it and falling into old habits. Rome wasn't build in a day, neither will your new world. And like any good framing, it'll only work when it is solid... expected, reliable, rock steady. Start with the base and work your way up. It's what ALL of these tools and techniques lead up to. A solid frame. STFU, AA, AM, NGAF, ... Stocism...etc.

[–]towaway123458[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Okay so when I'm with my wife and she wants to talk about something I don't feel like talking about. And I make it known I don't feel like talking about it and keeps saying come on! Stop being like that you never want to talk. And keeps pushing me till I get annoyed and snap. I am entering her frame.

But if I hold my frame. She doesn't shut up till I say something. It makes it hard to hold frame

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Correctish.

And I make it known I don't feel like talking about it and keeps saying come on!

The part in bold can be expressed verbally (once) but after that, the proof is in what you put up with. She only now knows that if she pushes you ...that you will eventually cave. That's her worldview of you. If you want to change that...build something new, you'll have to make it know with action.

Ie. "Well this has been fun" and you just leave if she turns into a broken record.

Hold frame doesn't just mean hold still or stay quiet for as long as you can. If you eventually break... your frame broke. Doesn't matter if it's a minute, or 20. It wasn't there. You can't evaluate in the minute so much as meta afterwards.

Learn to have something on standby to go do. Even if it's just to go into another room if she doesn't stop. Try not to stomp off, just be visibly tired about it (since you should be) and do something more productive than a

Speak

No

Speak

No

Speak

No

interchange.

[–]towaway123458[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Okay got it makes a lot of sense. Now say I'm getting sent nudes by a girl. She always send them. Telling her how hot she is. Isn't that falling into her frame?

Or if she constantly tells me she loves me and misses me. Saying it back isn't that falling in?

Now I've read the follow her compliment with a compliment thing. But I feel like every time she tells me she misses me and I say. I know it's getting kind of old. And if I do say I miss you too. That she really likes that. Maybe I'm wrong

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is frame-

she says, "I don't have to have sex everyday anymore, ya know...."

you say, "ok" So who in the fuck died and made her the ruler of the universe ?

you did, and you re-enforced it by living on her verbal terms, which becomes her physical terms and then some (women) get off on the control

Another is, "let's go to dinner, I want a burger."

her- "I hate burgers"- you, "ok" "how about Chinese?" (god I fucking hate Chinese you think)

seething anger after a while- "fucking bitch, never had a burger while being with her, cunt....."

I use this, because we are looking @ "sexual strategy." Got it ?



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