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Declaring my independence

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July 5, 2016
9 upvotes

Hi friends This is my first post, it's long, part victim puke, part log, and part MAP. I'll try to point out lessons I've learnt as well as points that still confuse me, cause me to fail and start over. I found a post by /u/2gunsgetsome and am stealing his style to point out what I've learned. I found his posts very inspiring.

I've been a beta from the start. I was always the guy putting others needs first in the hopes that they would like me more [NICE GUY TRAIT]. When I got to college - A girl I liked I went full beta orbiter, I got played/dumped on after spending months/$$$ chasing after her. I realized what I had been doing and decided to change myself instead of saying she was a bad seed [RED PILL LESSON]. Looking back I am thankful. She taught me something for life. This pushed me hard in the other direction. I started working out like crazy, dropped weight, dropped to about 12-13% BF. I also found PUA and used that successfully to date/marry my wife. I dressed sharp (still do), worked out, ate right, AA and AM'd everything. Once in the first couple of months of the relationship I found her flirting with a bartender and I decided to "help" as her wingman [ABUNDANCE MENTALITY]

However, once we got married and lived together, she saw how the sausage was being made. All the PUA tricks were great to get her attention and date, but failed miserably as I tried to implement a "fair" relationship [BLUE PILL]. I didn’t have any of the mindsets implemented (high value man, abundance, outcome independence) behind those tricks and they were exposed for the illusions they were. Almost textbook - I stopped planning, I asked her what she wanted to do/go/see/travel with the thought that I was putting her first as a husband should [COVERT CONTRACT, NICE GUY TRAITS, MORE BLUE PILL].

Slowly my gym/workout regiment dropped as well. I gained about 30 lbs since we first met. She would openly disrespect me by saying she was the best I was going to get (to be fair, she is a 7-8 and has maintained her body throughout our marriage). She also didn't put in my effort in finding a job and basically became a housewife for a number of years [BETA BUX]. She would do some chores but we'd still share a number of them even though I had a full time job and she didnt. [MORE BETA] I would try to logically argue my way through her shit tests and struggle with how she wouldn't see how I was such a good guy, always trying to put her first [NICE GUY]. I would scream and get frustrated as her shit tests evolved into shouting matches and slinging as much mud as I could. It almost always followed this pattern: She would shit test, I respond with a DEER response which wouldn’t work, she would double down, I get irritated/angry/frustrated and shout at her - she would blame me for being abusive [Don't DEER!!]. Game set Match.

About a year ago, I stumbled onto TRP and then MRP. A few months ago, I read NMMNG, MMLSP, WISNIFG and Rational Male. I also read BPP's kindle book. I implemented IDGAF, STFU, fogging and now moving to AA/AM. I spot comfort tests very easily now and can see the difference for the most part. I game her, plan weekends, plan travel, have identified and eliminated covert contracts. I do stuff that needs to be done without expecting anything. Wife thanks me for doing stuff like chores - guess she thinks its her ship so I need to be thanked?? Sex has improved a lot but it's still not as exciting as I would like it to be. I'm working on this part. Sex God Method is next.

One big failure I've had has been taking my MAP too lightly. I never wrote one to start with and had a few thoughts "in my head" as my MAP [WEAK, INACTION]. Over time I stopped implementing parts of it. I also had a medical issue that stopped me from lifting weights for a few months. I have started and stopped my weight loss plans for years and years. But in the last 6 months, I've dropped 22 of the 30 lbs I gained. Last 8 are proving hard. I have started reading a lot but real action/doing is lacking (is reading just another form of procrastination)??. I sold my xbox, stopped gaming, started cooking more often (a major interest of mine that I had given up), go out for walks alone, hiking (i ask the wife and if she says no, i go without her). My job is work from home and its a huge dread killer that I am at home and never in contact with other humans. I've realized I need to "fix" this by doing more activities outside the house (classes, meetups etc).

I also lose frame easily when I'm drinking - It used to be the opposite. I would become unflappable after a couple drinks where nothing would bother me. Now its like I have a seething rage inside me that comes out. I notice I start hating on all women around me. I see them as just tricksters out to get men. I feel like this is a major sticking point in my progress [ANGER PHASE]. I also start advising my friends. I need to STFU until I have figured shit out myself. It's embarrassing to be honest. My solution, until I get over the anger, is to stop drinking.

A big issue I'm struggling with after I hold frame through a shit test - I don’t know if my behavior was just me verbalizing my needs or being an asshole/jerk. At a friends party recently, my wife wanted to go back home. It was early and I wasn’t interested in leaving that early - none of my friends had left. I told her she was free to uber it back herself (our house is 10 minutes away) and i wanted to stay. She got pissed and left. Next morning she cried hysterically for how I don’t care for her at all. That all I care for is my friends and family and that she is last on my list of people I care for (this is a very old complaint of hers - is it a demand for more comfort behavior?). Was I right in telling her to go home without me or was I a dick?

I still struggle with seeking her approval when she is pissed off or "sad/emotional" about something I did. If I truly made a mistake I apologize but she will still continue to "stretch" the incident by giving me the silent treatment. Previously silent treatment was met with equal silent treatment but I was hoping she would talk [APPROVAL SEEKING]. Now I just do my own thing and appreciate the quiet time. I also make fun of her silence [AMUSED MASTERY]

I also don't know what value this relationship is bringing to my life. its a constant power struggle and it's exhausting. I question why I'm married to this woman. She's got few friends (she hates almost every girl she meets), hardly any hobbies besides watching TV, shopping etc. She's spent all day today in front of the television watching movies. I don't care its her life to waste, but why am I with her if this is all the effort she's putting in? I question if by doing so much around the house am I enabling this behavior of leeching off my hard work? For now, as I improve myself, I have decided to not think about this much. Over time, as I become higher value, we will see what changes and I will decide then. I have also realized I take her moods very seriously. If she is pissed or emotional or silent, I will start searching for posts on MRP to see how I should have responded better or behaved differently in similar situations. I think this is a major issue I need to resolve.

If you got this far, thanks for reading. I plan to implement and write out my MAP in detail. I've decided to use google calendar to plan my life just as I would at work. I am a rockstar at work and I've realized that the things that are recognized at work as my excellent leadership skills are lacking at home. At work, I take on more than everyone else because its my ship, I delegate, I decide quickly, I don’t take things personally and I am a willing and constant learner. At home it’s a world apart.

Edit: /u/Persaeus correctly pointed out that I left out ages/when we met/got married from my post.

Wife and I were in our early 20s, in college, when we started dating and got married a few years later. We're in our mid 30s now, no kids, both working full time jobs.


Post Information
Title Declaring my independence
Author Actionreduction
Upvotes 9
Comments 20
Date 05 July 2016 01:07 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207345
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/4ra8or/declaring_my_independence/
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Comments

[–]The_LitzRed Beret4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

You are on track buddy. The problems you still have you have identified and can do something about.

Write down that MAP!

If it is somewhere in your head it is still a floating dream. You won't forget what it is, but when the time comes to evaluate it is difficult to truly judge your progress, as nothing was ever written down.

Make solid meusureable and achieveable targets. Meusureable in the sense that it is concrete, say weigh 180lbs by 1 September. And also achievable, no use trying to get to 180lbs on 1 September if you are currently sitting at 300lbs.

But you already know this.

(is reading just another form of procrastination)??.

Yes. When it delays you from taking action it definately is. Reading is such an important part of our live, and everyone is always encouraging each other to read , but it often gets in the way of taking action.

For me it often is a form of escape. Especially novels. You do not have to deal with the outside world for a while. All your troubles are being sorted by Jack Reacher for a while. It is all good untill it becomes your crutch.

Anger phase/drinking. Cut the drinking and see if you feel different. And watch that pesky 8lbs walk out the door. Betcha that is why they won't leave, for no man ever just had one beer with his mates.

Familiarity breeds contempt. You and your wife spend 99% of your day in each others company if I understand your setup correctly. (Her - housewife and you - work from home)

She is not into making friends and it sounds like you don't have kids. She is relying on you 100% to keep her entertained and fulfilled. That is never going to work out.

I have also realized I take her moods very seriously. If she is pissed or emotional or silent, I will start searching for posts on MRP to see how I should have responded better or behaved differently in similar situations. I think this is a major issue I need to resolve

The last part of your post makes a lot of mention about her this, her that. Make very sure you are not doing this for her, but for yourself. But you also know this.

I think this is a major issue I need to resolve

Get to work!

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and answers.

Re:Alcohol - yeah its never 1 drink, but i don't drink during the week. Usually once on the weekend. My problem is stopping once I've gone to the 5-6 beer number. At this point, its like my brain stops making smart choices and instead defaults to my impulses. I've been reading a book about willpower (The Willpower Instinct - great book BTW) that defines this as not familiarizing yourself enough with your future self that will have to "pay" for my current self's impulsive decisions. I've put that on the MAP list of things I need to own and correct.

Thankfully the wife has been out the door with a job for a few years so things aren't as bad as before. You're right though about the last part of my post. Its all about her. I realized a few days back because of a post I read on MRP that I just spend a LOT of mental energy on her - either thinking about how she reacted, what I could have done to make the outcome different. While I write this, I realize how much of my progress measurement is really based on how SHE reacts instead of MY assessment.

I haven't really assigned her any tasks either. I do whatever needs to be done, and when she does not do anything or help, I sulk inside (while staying happy outside). This is a covert contract. Either I ask for help and give her a fair chance at it, or I dont do it and stop judging. It's my ship. I wouldn't hold it against my team at work if they didn't do something I hadn't yet asked them to do. So why do it at home.

[–]redearththeory2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

My story has similarities with yours: beta/orbiting in secondary school, learned some PUA, met my wife, tried to be reasonable in the relationship, went bluepill/betabux, found MRP and put things on the right track. But I don't read anything about kids in your story which means you have a HUGE advantage and plausible threat of divorce. That's an incredibly effective weapon, even if you don't have the frame to wield it yet. A few points on what you wrote.

A big issue I'm struggling with after I hold frame through a shit test - I don’t know if my behavior was just me verbalizing my needs or being an asshole/jerk.

Only you should decide the rules for your life and the only justification needed for your decision is that you decided it. You're a grown man right? So that's the only qualification you need to decide shit like this. I suggest that you decide right now that you will take the risk of doing alpha badly before you ever do beta again.

If I truly made a mistake I apologize but she will still continue to "stretch" the incident by giving me the silent treatment.

The requirement is that you and you alone decide, based on the facts you consider important, completely ignoring any pressure (especially disapproval) from other people. But its fine to change your mind if someone presents new facts. It is not fine to change your mind because someone disapproved of you. For this reason you need to get your emotional needs met by people other than your wife. Make male friends that you can call or hang out with if she's being a bitch. You should need nothing emotional from your wife. She is not your friend.

Now I just do my own thing and appreciate the quiet time. I also make fun of her silence [AMUSED MASTERY]

Yes, like that.

its a constant power struggle and it's exhausting.

I had a period like this, before things broke and my wife came around. Keep going.

I question if by doing so much around the house am I enabling this behavior of leeching off my hard work?

Once you can handle her disapproval with no problem, tell her she needs to get off her ass and pull her weight. She will argue. Criticize her back. She will not agree with you. Tell her that's fine, but you'd like her to do more around the house. Have the fight. If it doesn't work, shrug and have the fight again. Once you don't need her approval its fine. Good luck.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

You should need nothing emotional from your wife. She is not your friend.

^ This OP is gold. One of the hardest, but most important, RP truths to internalize.

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This was very hard to do initially, but I've stopped sharing work stories or any negative victim puke with her. she asks how work is going and I respond with "ok" or "work work work work work" (the song on the radio these days)

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yes - I definitely have done alpha badly for a number of years. I was always of the mentality "you're free to walk out anytime you'd like" but I don't think I had the SMV to really believe or pull it off. I am still doing it badly, but now I know a bit more about why. It's not all good, but I haven't argued with her in 7-8 months.

completely ignoring any pressure (especially disapproval) from other people.

Yeah - this still gets me. I feel this at home and (less often) at work. I've learned to set boundaries with work in the last year. Home, as I've said, is a different story.

I don't have any kids but I slowly feel being pulled in that direction. I'm eager to implement this in the hope that either this marriage improves or I exit before any kids are popped.

[–]redearththeory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah - this still gets me. I feel this at home and (less often) at work.

Whenever you feel this pressure, ask yourself what you're trying to get from the other person. Someone can only pressure you if you are relying on them for something (approval, money, sex). Figure out where in your life this is happening, develop other sources of the things you need and tell the people pressuring you to fuck off.

[–]Kidterrific1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Best of luck and welcome aboard. Don't lose that energy.

[–]Dobiegillistein1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

This is almost exactly my situation. You are probably a little ahead of me in some aspects of TRP. I too allow her emotions to effect my frame. When she sits on the couch sad and silent I have acted in kind. Use to I would badger her on what was bothering her or ask her what I had done wrong. After I discovered the RP I stopped my needy child crap but inside I was and sometimes still allowing her mood or actions effect mine. I think we just need to keep improving and making ourselves el' numero uno and keep them out of our frame. I have a long way to go and an greatly inspired by posts like yours.

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The "acted in kind" to her silent treatment, or shouting contests stopped once I realized I was doing it because the voice in my head said "you want equal? well then here's equally shitty treatment". My father-in-law advised me, as a man, you need to start being the leader of the family (he's got some RP traits and a strong frame). That really struck me hard. I'd been behaving like her instead of behaving like a man. I decided then that implementing MRP was my only choice.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Knocking her off of her pedastal is the best thing you can do. Realizing not much added value is a huge step. Anger it all women while drunk is just another anger phase. You see them as a scapegoat for the problems you created in your LTR Its anger, identify it and let it go. The past is gone, you are doing this for you as many have done for ourselves Just remmber this as you get pissed off- there are so many women out there looking for solid quality men, that once you fix your shit, they'll come hitting. (I'm on vacation with SO and kids and have been hit in three x, biggest comment was how my shirt fit and how I dared directed my children, instead of them running wild)

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're right - I get sullen and angry because I still blame her/women. I say I blame myself but inside I still bottle up a lot of rage from being played in High School/College - i've been in a prolonged anger stage for many years. It took me a while to recognize this as my anger phase that only shows itself when I'm vulnerable.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy

How do these two things:

My job is work from home

and

I am a rockstar at work and I've realized that the things that are recognized at work as my excellent leadership skills

go together. I am not knocking working at home, but being "a rockstar" normally implies you are getting nonstop adulation/jealousy from co-workers and bosses. A whole lot of ego in this post.

(to be fair, she is a 7-8 and has maintained her body throughout our marriage)

Check this versus this honest scale. Keep in mind once you improve your SMV past her's, and her hypergamy is satisfied, getting your way will be 100x easier. You may want to consider this dynamic before you start making demand and edicts.

I have also realized I take her moods very seriously.

And all the words associated (~1/2 your post) with that statement indicate you are more in her frame then your own. Two pieces of standard advice:

  1. Re-read NMMNG and WISNIFG because you have not internalized these prereqs (takes many of us multiple reads).
  2. GTFO of your house and develop some hobbies and male friends. Trust me, this will do miracles for your frame and will also up the dread.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for that link. Made me laugh. Here is a more honest scale: would or would not Lol. A moving target in time and space.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

would or would not

Yhea, me too. Dogs we are

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

am not knocking working at home, but being "a rockstar" normally implies you are getting nonstop adulation/jealousy from co-workers and bosses. A whole lot of ego in this post.

Well, work from home isn't the only situation I've been in. I had a regular, workplace gig for a number of years. I say rockstar because that's how my mid-year and yearly reviews have described me, from peers and bosses. I can understand the ego part - I was reading an excerpt of the book "Ego is the Enemy" and I have fallen into some of the trappings of success - where I feel I'm better than others. Was there something else you saw here?

Check this versus this honest scale.

Haha, I actually did before I posted. She's been approached a number of times to become a model previously so I would say 7.5 is my conservative estimate of her hotness. I give credit where credit is due - no rose-colored glasses here.

Keep in mind once you improve your SMV past her's, and her hypergamy is satisfied, getting your way will be 100x easier. You may want to consider this dynamic before you start making demand and edicts.

This is huge. I get shit tested many times that I don't know her value. I usually respond with cockiness - "haha and yet here you are" or with an amused look or i recognize when it's said as a comfort test and respond accordingly. My SMV was never above hers and I feel I got her by displaying abundance mentality. I am good at faking through sheer stubbornness and unwillingness to bend to her will, than by really having abundance. She says its because I refuse to be like my friends/husbands who are their wife's tail.

Two pieces of standard advice:

  1. Re-read NMMNG and WISNIFG because you have not internalized these prereqs (takes many of us multiple reads).

  2. GTFO of your house and develop some hobbies and male friends. Trust me, this will do miracles for your frame and will also up the dread.

Thanks - I realized how true #1 was when I stopped fogging after a few months of reading WISNIFG. I need to read that again. I just finished a 2nd read of NMMNG. I found so much more I had missed. for #2 - I have a lot of hobbies but not many male friends left - most have moved or dont come out to hang because they are BP and don't do anything without their wives in tow. Any advice on meeting new male friends?

[–]PersaeusRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Was there something else you saw here?

No. Just note that your work performance does not mean diddly in her subconcious assessment of your SMV. If she did not see it with her own eyes and have it validated by others, it did not matter.

Well, "My SMV was never above hers" and "I get shit tested many times that I don't know her value" go together hand in glove. You left out the critical newb-post information concerning your ages and when you met/married; so I will assume based on context that you met in college/early 20's and your fiance was not a post-wall slut with the 1000 cock stare that settled for you. A lot of good information in the manosphere; but you know that women evaluate a man SMV relative to theirs on a whole plethora of factors as opposed to men (how hot is she.....). So IMO, your statement of "My SMV was never above hers" is both selling yourself short and calling your wife a dumb cunt. YOU ARE THE PRIZE. Internalize this thought like you did earlier in life; and she will likely believe it too.

Check out the sidebar 60 Days of Dread section on socializing. Trust me, at 47, and living in a small town I know how hard it is to get new/more bros. You just have to start putting yourself out there both physically and engaging others. Intramural sports, community college classes, martial arts, meetups, etc. The key is to stop analyzing and start fucking doing it.

[–]Actionreduction[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

but you know that women evaluate a man SMV relative to theirs on a whole plethora of factors as opposed to men (how hot is she.....). So IMO, your statement of "My SMV was never above hers" is both selling yourself short and calling your wife a dumb cunt. YOU ARE THE PRIZE. Internalize this thought like you did earlier in life; and she will likely believe it too.

Truth. Maybe the shit tests have gotten to me where I started to believe her (she is the prize and I'm just lucky to have her). You got it right - I was evaluating SMV in terms of plain hotness.

Oops - forgot to add, I posted ages and when we got married in an edit to the post.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Maybe the shit tests have gotten to me where I started to believe her

Yep, this was you failing shit test and being less of a man in both yours and her eyes. Been there done that. IMO this is part of a woman bio programming designed to lock you down and keep your ass from straying (i.e. betabux). FUCK ALL THAT

[–]red-pill-man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I know the guys in the cult don't want you to hear this as they defend marriage to a fault, probably for religious reasons.

Both in mid 30's, both have full time jobs, no kids. There is no reason to stay with this woman. However you still should improve yourself or you'll find your next relationshit failing as well.

Toodles.



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