Should we blame women or men for the mess?

Jacksambuck · 2015-12-15T11:10:34+00:00

So the girl has no agency and just says yes all the time when she means no because she's braindead?

There's being submissive and then there's being a zombie.

t's that they end up in a lot of bad situations, and they're sick of being blamed for the mistakes of unruly men. A girl isn't a slut just because she gets date raped.

But what you described isn"t rape. Men are not telepathic omniscient beings who can read women's minds and then act in women's best interests regardless of how the woman herself is acting.

If women are so naturally submissive and never express what they want, "just go along with it", how is a man to differentiate between a willing and an unwilling woman? Rely on nonverbal signs; she's wet, let's go, she's dry, that's a no?

thegroundbeneath · 2015-12-15T12:31:45+00:00

What mess?

I don't agree with anything you said.

ianturpiesmoustache · 2015-12-15T11:46:48+00:00

I believe this is the origin of the feminist argument against slut shaming. It's not that girls want to be promiscuous. It's that they end up in a lot of bad situations, and they're sick of being blamed for the mistakes of unruly men.

Nah, there are just some women who want to fuck dudes without being judged. That's enough of a reason, it doesn't need to be explained further. If women have sex (unless force was involved) it wasn't "men's mistakes", no matter how unruly said men are. And it wasn't even necessarily a mistake - you don't need to paint women as sexless innocents for slut shaming to be stupid.

And "got used" does not equal "date rape", for fuck's sake.

Ronin11A · 2015-12-15T14:52:49+00:00

It's that they end up in a lot of bad situations, and they're sick of being blamed for the mistakes of unruly men. A girl isn't a slut just because she gets date raped.

Are you fucking serious? She, as a grown ass adult with her own free will and agency, could have said NO to the kiss, NO to him removing her clothing, and NO to having sex. He didn't drug her. Naive girl who got used? Get real.

Seriously, feminism pretends that the whole world is oppressing women and that they need to be saved from everything around them.

She's a strong, independent woman, well, except when she goes on dates with strange men. Then she's suddenly she's an innocent snowflake who can't make the right decisions for herself.

Fuck that. Seriously, as an RP man, there are days I genuinely think I hold women in higher regard than feminists do because I hold them to equal standards.

exit_sandman · 2015-12-15T11:35:11+00:00

I believe this is the origin of the feminist argument against slut shaming.

The feminist argument for pretty much everything can be summed up as "whatever it is we're complaining about, somehow men are at fault (and the only mistake women made was to be too patient and compliant for their own good; i.e. they're too good and nice to men)".

So when feminists are complaining about slut shaming, it's either those evil players that violated that unsuspecting and totally non-consenting pure virgin, or those antediluvian conservatives that are hostile to women exploring their healthy sexuality^TM .

GridReXX · 2015-12-15T14:26:33+00:00

Not sure what the mess is.

However I will say this.

If guy in the OP calls that same girl a slut... he's a lame.

Guys "trying for sex" and then "getting sex" and then calling the same girl a "slut" is exactly why women play hard to get.

prodigy2throw · 2015-12-15T15:23:14+00:00

It's the mans fault for going out with what was obviously a mute retard.

your_mom_on_drugs · 2015-12-15T11:31:14+00:00

Are you going to call her a slut because she went along with it?

If it happens once, maybe not, if it happens 3, 4, 5, 10 times?

treebog · 2015-12-15T14:08:27+00:00

The most important thing is that we find someone to blame.

[deleted] · 2015-12-15T18:01:08+00:00

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[deleted] · 2015-12-15T14:14:06+00:00

I'm just saying that sometimes a "slutty" girl isn't really a slut. She's just a naive girl who ended up in a bad situation and got used.

In my view, what you've described are the vast majority of women who would fall into the category of "slut."

I don't have a problem with people who stand by their stated principles. If a woman approves of promiscuity and casual sex and makes no bones about it, that's one thing. If a woman actively pursues men she's attracted to and has sex with them (because it's what she wants), then I don't really see any problem with that, since she's consistent with her stated views and principles.

It's the ones who don't intend to have sex yet passively allow it to happen anyway and then say "I don't usually do this on the first date!" That's a massive red flag to watch out for, since such a person would be untrustworthy and hypocritical. They seem too passive and can not be trusted to keep their word or stand by their stated principles.

That's the real basis behind "slut shaming," since it has nothing to do with shaming over promiscuity. It's all about hypocrisy.

GaiusScaevolus · 2015-12-15T15:04:16+00:00

Imagine an innocent girl who goes on a date with a guy, not intending to have any physical contact with him, just because he asked her out and seemed nice.

I could generously say a particularly naive girl may honestly have that thought process until she's 18. By 18, all but the most special brand of sheltered idiots know what's going on at least a little.

There's no 'mess' here, just slutty behavior being excused by a lack of agency. Doesn't make her a bad person.

[deleted] · 2015-12-15T15:26:16+00:00

Are you going to call her a slut because she went along with it?

Definitely. To her face. Slut.

That's the kind of slut I look down on most. I can respect a woman who loves sex and as a consequence, has lots of casual sex.

But this shit? Just pathetic. Now she is used up and didn't even have fun while sleeping with the guy. (Assuming that she didn't really want and like it in your scenario).

Sluts are bad, but the "I didn't really want to be a slut"-sluts are the worst.

[deleted] · 2015-12-15T16:11:30+00:00

Like someone else said, where did they go after the date that removal of clothes was a possibility? If you go out with someone and they ask you to go somewhere alone with them, you have to assume that sex is at least a possibility in their mind and act accordingly. At the very least, kissing is going to happen. If you're not down with that, you should either decline their invitation (probably the best move) or say no when sexual contact is initiated.

That's not to say that going home with a guy is agreeing to sex, or that you aren't within your rights to say no or change your mind at any point. You can, and the guy should respect it when you do. But to completely remove the woman's agency in the situation and act like sex is something that just "happens" to unsuspecting women is an insult to both sexes.

[deleted] · 2015-12-16T06:28:06+00:00

if we're thinking really psychologically and deep and not in a "day-to-day" style, then we blame the top 1% of men. Something anger phasers don't get.

Doesn't apply in day to day life though.

[deleted] · 2015-12-30T07:30:34+00:00

What you describe is consensual sex of which both the man and the woman are responsible. I hope you're not trolling.

[deleted] · 2015-12-15T17:57:45+00:00

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[deleted] · 2015-12-15T15:59:48+00:00

Are you going to call her a slut because she went along with it?

Not if she did this once. I will if she did this 12 times.

A woman can learn about what to do and what not to do. She can learn to say "no" to sex she really doesn't want. She can also say "no" to men she really doesn't want. (Women have absolutely no problem saying "no" when they don't want something, and making that "no" stick, especially when it comes to sex.) So if she "goes along with it", then she wants the sex, or wants the man.

Remember, girls are naturally submissive.

No they're not. They're only naturally submissive to men they're sexually attracted to.

She's just a naive girl who ended up in a bad situation and got used.

Not if it happened once. She is if it happened multiple times. Because then she's not "naïve".

Girls can learn how to avoid "bad situations".

thegroundbeneath · 2015-12-15T12:49:22+00:00

She's just a naive girl who ended up in a bad situation and got used.

It's not that girls want to be promiscuous. It's that they end up in a lot of bad situations

This why girls should be married off at 12 and chained to stove for life./s

I think you feel at home in Saudi Arabia. Because they don't allow women to be in a lot bad situations.

they're sick of being blamed for the mistakes of unruly men. A girl isn't a slut just because she gets date raped.

So women cannot take any decisions and they don't have any agency?? Then how they can be equal to men?

I want to be fair to both sides.

reads the post. Yeah right.

TempestTcup · 2015-12-15T13:57:20+00:00

Where did they go on their date that clothes could be removed and sex could be had? Drive-in movie? Make-out Point? The best course of action, if she doesn't want to have sex with him yet, is to not be in a sexy place. That's pretty much Dating 101. "Would you like to go to my place?" = sexy times.

Not blaming the "victim" here because of course the guy is going to try for sex. That's what guys do (in my experience, YMMV!) :)

[deleted] · 2015-12-15T16:39:52+00:00

Why the hell would she just "go along with it"??

Is sex that meaningless to women that they are willing to just do it for no real reason?

Xemnas81 · 2015-12-15T17:29:27+00:00

that's right bruh, women are always victims of the oppressive expectations of that evil patriarchy

SirNemesis · 2015-12-15T20:01:26+00:00

I'm just saying that sometimes a "slutty" girl isn't really a slut. She's just a naive girl who ended up in a bad situation and got used. I believe this is the origin of the feminist argument against slut shaming. It's not that girls want to be promiscuous. It's that they end up in a lot of bad situations, and they're sick of being blamed for the mistakes of unruly men.

That's an argument for patriarchy, not an argument for feminism. You need dad to keep her locked away from such men.

Title	Should we blame women or men for the mess?
Author	thegroundbeneath
Upvotes	1
Comments	56
Date	December 15, 2015 10:38 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3wxa44/should_we_blame_women_or_men_for_the_mess/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/should-we-blame-women-or-men-for-the-mess.277871 https://theredarchive.com/post/277871

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