Can we discuss a bit about the low birth rates?

[deleted] · 2015-06-12T16:50:55+00:00

Do you think feminism is the main reason

Don't think so. It's a combinaison of various factors:

You don't need children anymore to take care of you financially when you're old.
We're in a society where freedom is important. Having children reduce your freedom.
Costs have increased
Better contraception as you say
Religion isn't trending anymore and was an important contributor.

how do you think the government should handle this problem

Tax incentives, promotion of egg and sperm freezing, better infrastructure

sedatedinsomniac · 2015-06-12T22:43:02+00:00

By the way , how do you think the government should handle this problem ?

Stop kicking men in the crotch who want to marry and have kids.

C0UNTdrama · 2015-06-12T16:34:02+00:00

Would removing women from schools and workplaces be a good idea

This is a great way to crash the economy and set human progress back a couple hundred years.

Will the white race eventually die out ?

Yes, this isn't the end of the world. Greater genetic diversity is a good thing.

Is feminism entirely to blame for the death of the white race and the west in general?

This is some serious doom and gloom shit. No and the West isn't going to die out. We're too contagious. Potential reasons for lower birthrates included: advanced technology, accumulated wealth, and individualism.

Vornnash · 2015-06-12T16:45:03+00:00

Birth rates are dropping also due to the economy...dual incomes are required now...and if not, consider yourself very fortunate. To get these jobs requires either years of education or 'moving' up the ladder.

Another is birth control.

hippydipster · 2015-06-12T18:53:32+00:00

I think low birth rates are primarily a problem because of the way we run our economies and because of our overall resistance to any changes that threaten jobs. Automation is slowed due to this resistance, and we refrain from the research, development, and implementation of radical automations that are entirely within our grasp to put into effect, because they will "cost jobs", and that is a problem because we force each individual to support him/herself via a job.

Also, automation would have the effect of bringing greater and greater inequality, because it would funnel a greater and greater share of the profits to idle owners, as opposed to labor. It used to be that greater productivity would lead to more labor being hired and higher wages, but that was only the case because of relatively extreme scarcity. When you have abundance, it goes the other way. Ie, advanced automation of car building doesn't lead to higher more workers and increasing their wages because we don't need to be able to build more cars to meet demand. We are instead looking for more and more ways to cut costs instead. Automation leads to fewer jobs, less demand for labor means wages go down, and lower costs mean more of the profits are going to the distant owners.

/r/basicincome is the basic idea of an actual way to fix that feedback loop. The more we automate, the more basic income can be. The extreme end state being that everything we want is created by the simple touch of a button, and all "profit" from doing to is equally distributed.

But given that won't happen, we are fighting a losing battle against the impacts of low birth-rate on our "grow-or-die" economy.

Is it feminism's "fault"? More or less. In the past, things worked because women had little choice but to bear children and raise them, and men were shielded from the unpleasantness of home-with-children life and could work. So, birth rates were high.

But allowing women to be equal and work with men gave many of them alternatives that they naturally find more desirable than being a mommy and housewife, and understandably so. And so men are now forced to bear nearly 50% of child-rearing and home-related tasks, and so they are no longer shielded from the unhappiness children do in fact tend to bring, particularly to men. Divorce rates rise. Broken homes rise. People start looking around and note that having children == crappy lives.

However, all this needed to happen. Going back is not the right response - that's just being reactionary. Women deserve to be equal. What we need is a proactive response that recognizes both that women should be equal and that it has led us to the current undesirable situation, and comes out the other side with a better way of doing things.

/r/basicincome is one aspect of that. Another would be a social change in which "family" is not restricted to a couple and their children. People should allowed and encourage to essentially marry as groups. This would allow groups to form around a small number of women who do actually want to be mothers, and the rest, both men and women, are the breadwinners and general support for that nucleus of children. Obviously sex and love and our ideas around them would have to change. I find it ridiculous that we all essentially hole up in our little houses of two people trying to raise children essentially alone and without help. Any non-child activity requires special planning to find babysitters you can trust and afford. Child-care is farmed out to absurd levels - it's terrible for the children, and the stress is disastrous for the adults. It takes a village - well we don't have villages, we have lonely single or coupled parents. It takes at least a group.

I believe in such arrangements, everyone could get what they need. The men and the more masculine women who are ambitious and want to work could get the varied sex they like (ie, within the group). The women who want to make homes and raise children get the financial support they need, and in turn they shield the others from intense child-rearing duties, and do the stress-relieving services of cooking and cleaning (and that is a very significant stress-relieving service!).

That's my crazy radical concept of a future where all this can actually work out well.

fiat_lux_ · 2015-06-12T16:15:12+00:00

Do you think feminism is the main reason why the birth rates are dropping or was it inevitable ?

No. I think it is a symptom of something wider. One of many causes.

By the way , how do you think the government should handle this problem ? Would removing women from schools and workplaces be a good idea?

That would be against my personal faiths and preferences, but it probably would be conducive to more stable marriages. It would just be a very raw deal for women in the short term.

You've already brushed on this idea, but here's the bottom line. Most people will only do things that aren't fun when it's necessary. Most people are lazy.

The natural state for the avg person is that of a hedonist with no discipline. Give an avg man all the sex, fun, food, and respects he wants, and you'll end up with a fatass living in a box (a comfortable box). Same for an avg woman.

Give the middle class the responsibility to invest, and we end up with better food and entertainment. (Checkout top crowdfunding projects. Dominated by projs related to entertainment.)

A stronger middle class = better video games.

Marriage is a duty to civilization and future. Getting people to marry when they didn't want to in the first place would require taking away fun and freedom for too many.

sohamster · 2015-06-12T17:27:45+00:00

The only thing that will save the Earth is lowered birth rates. It's not a race issue, it's a overpopulation, die in your own waste, of starvation and dirty water issue.

TheGreasyPole · 2015-06-13T00:39:02+00:00

Ok. Is no one going to say .... Good.

I want birth rates dropping. We've got too many people. Having less people is a good idea.

I'm an economist so I know I'm going to get a load of growth stuff... But that's largely bullshit. What counts to people is growth per capita. Growth overall just makes profits higher.

And if you accept that it doesn't matter if you are brown. And if you also accept the anglosphere has an excellent capacity for absorbing and acculturalizing new immigrants, with an impressive track record in recent centuries.

Well, we can just make up the number from new immigrants, and trust that as it always does.... The culture infuses into te kids and by the 3rd gen they're just more of us.

Help solve their fucking population problem too.

And, fuck, will some billionaire pay for continuous airdrops of condoms over everywhere that isn't China or the developed west. That'd also help.

Fucking hell. Sod keep adding more of us wasteful fuckers to this ball of dirt.

Grab me another ball of dirt and we can talk again. Mars, I'm looking at you.

[deleted] · 2015-06-12T16:12:02+00:00

This was discussed here just two weeks ago:

http://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/37jksu/has_feminism_destroyed_the_western_birth_rate_and/

hippydipster · 2015-06-12T16:22:06+00:00

Different races exist because various groups of humans evolved separate from each other. Technology has removed the barriers separating people and has created a small world. This means racial homogenization is inevitable.

Whether it happens in a few hundred years or a few thousand years, there will no longer be distinct races like today. I'm not sure how to feel about it to be honest. At least race politics will no longer be a thing for the left lol.

0h50dr0w5y · 2015-06-12T17:20:15+00:00

Would removing women from schools and workplaces be a good idea?

Not if we ask the government to do this. Women should be free to work anywhere they want, the government needs to get the fuck out of our lives, they create a mess and now we expect them to fix it? No. Government got us into this, but it won't get us out.

wazzup987 · 2015-06-12T21:20:33+00:00

LOL no birth rates are a reflection in the west of technological development automation and higher standard of living

[deleted] · 2015-06-13T17:52:25+00:00

If there were a way to have children without living like children, I would have some.

I think the solution would be to let grandmas raise the children while the younger adults go about their lives unencumbered by screaming diapermonsters.

[deleted] · 2015-06-14T09:16:40+00:00

Overpopulation and apex predator status leads to people not seeing mating as a necessity and more so as a game.

Also giving people stuff to do rather then mop around doing nothing in a third world habitat also contributes to low birth rates.

There is only one race of human, it's called human.

Feminism isn't bad. You don't see animals chaining up and oppressing their mates. Animals are all about the whole Alpha dog / Beta dog ideas. It was needed to break away overly oppressive male rules on women (Which still exist in some countries to this day.) Of course, you have radicals in every party and I do agree with the Red pill that some feminists have gone too far with their momentum in attempting their oppression on males.

[deleted] · 2015-06-15T09:52:05+00:00

I think people approach it too abstractly. Let's look at real life examples - we had one kid at 35/33 and we won't have another.

Reasons:

We won't have another because it is too fucking hard. But perhaps we feel it is hard because we are 36/34 now, maybe when you are younger it is easier to deal with. Still, all our free time just poof went up in smoke. We weren't to a restaurant or dancing in a YEAR. It would be easier if we had access to help from grandmas but they live afar. My wife describes the situation as being chained to a ball. She needs to be 7/24 close enough to the child to change a diaper when needed, no chance to spend an hour or two alone.
This, people living farther away from their parents, is also a factor. They know they will have no help in babysitting. And most people are not comfortable about hiring strangers for that I guess.
Up to 29 or so my wife, then GF was sure he wants no babies. Then the biological clock said hello.
I was a fucking child at 25 or 30, not ready to be a father.
Our finances were not really ready at say 25 or 30. We both - not knowing each other - just jumped around the map, working 2 years in this city / country, then 3 years in that one. We had no fixed home no nothing and usually blew most of our savings on moving. When you live for 3-6 months in a new city / country looking or a job, that's expensive.
You finish college at 25 and it takes 5 years to get to a point in your career where you can leave and return at will. This means for women no child under 30.

Vornnash · 2015-06-12T17:14:47+00:00

Please see this discussion we had in /r/economics. Work-feminism and materialism is an incredibly destructive element of our society. People have to recognize that 'things' and deriving meaning from careers is not a solution and will not result in increased happiness. Indeed, since the 1970's women have lost ground in terms of happiness. Women must recognize that they exist to reproduce first and foremost, and men exist to provide for their families. This is the natural order of things which has enabled the formation of the greatest economic miracle in history. Disrupt that and you imperil this miracle.

fundude1 · 2015-06-12T16:45:08+00:00

I have already discussed this in detail in my previous posting.

Feminism isn't the SOLE reason but it is a MAIN reason.

Ergo, the West is finished.

Title	Can we discuss a bit about the low birth rates?
Author	HappilySingleWoman
Upvotes	1
Comments	65
Date	June 12, 2015 4:01 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/39liwj/can_we_discuss_a_bit_about_the_low_birth_rates/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/can-we-discuss-a-bit-about-the-low-birth-rates.281642 https://theredarchive.com/post/281642

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