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If we follow the Matrix analogy, everyone in this Sub is unplugged therefore red pill. BPers' that have an understanding of RP knowledge are merely not in a situation, that calls for it. Discuss.

[deleted]

December 31, 2014

1 upvotes

A common theme in fiction is seeing how people act under pressure. Bluntly in a TV show I have been watching recently (Star Trek: Enterprise) the Ship's Captain; Jonathan Archer(Who morals are basically Jesus) is pushed to torture an Alien. With the goal of extracting information in an effort to save the Human race from space terrorists. He explains how he feels like he has lost a part of himself through his action but it was for the greater good of his planet and he had no other course of action.

As we all know art imitates life. Take these posts from r/DeadBedrooms for example. one, two.

I'll summarise. The first post; a broken angry man who after 10 years of marriage is filing for divorce. He guesses he will end up poor and without good access to his own kids. The second a post; an ecstatic man happy that he had sex with the women he had dedicated his life to, as it is such a rare occurrence.

Blue Pillers who aren't ignorant to the teachings of the Red Pill, if you were either of those men or a lady in a similar situation, would you being willing to apply the Red Pill to save your relationship? If you apply - say dread game and it helps improve your relationship what does that make you? Are you still Blue Pill? Do/Would you lose a part of yourself to save your relationship with your SO?

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Post Information

Title	If we follow the Matrix analogy, everyone in this Sub is unplugged therefore red pill. BPers' that have an understanding of RP knowledge are merely not in a situation, that calls for it. Discuss.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	1
Comments	67
Date	December 31, 2014 11:12 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2qwtsz/if_we_follow_the_matrix_analogy_everyone_in_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/if-we-follow-the-matrix-analogy-everyone-in-this.283946 https://theredarchive.com/post/283946

Comments

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

I think the question is likely to have little impact because the premise is loaded. Because IMHO, less than 10% of the BP side "has an understanding of RP knowledge" and not just a cursory overview of rants about it on the rest of reddit and what they can glean from comments here.

Meanwhile almost all of them think that they do.

This is not me making a case for no true scotsman or for invalidating their arguments, by all means, continue. But it something that will colour the answers you get and is a strong impression I think most RPers can empathize with on a casual browsing of the sub.

I think when someone blue strolls along and offers a criticism of TRP while giving the impression they have an understanding of it, it is striking to every reader and pretty much gets an ovation. example.

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

You see TRP as a collective group which says to me you aren't really familiar with the core of TRP. It is the truth about life covered up by those who benefit from everyone living life as a nuclear family unit.

In Japan so many men are choosing to go their own way (MGTOW) there are serious worries about the future of the economy. These men the don't know TRP and aren't cheating on anyone. However they are in droves choosing not to be with a women and the existing culture of any "women unsettled by 27 is like left over meat at the table."

TRP gives you the tools to cheat there are no reward points for doing so. If you check my post history I'm strongly against cheating, not for the same moral reason as you (it's dangerous to have people feel like everything going to shit is your fault.) but against cheating regardless.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

You see TRP as a collective group which says to me you aren't really familiar with the core of TRP. It is the truth about life covered up by those who benefit from everyone living life as a nuclear family unit.

There is no singular truth about life, therefore, TRP cannot present itself as "the truth". The reality is that life is scary and complex, and TRP says many things that are contrary to that. As a whole, it acts as if it is the one true answer in a world where there is more than a correct answer. Not only is that arrogance (which is a staple of a lot of TRP posters), but it is also plain false to believe there is a singular truth in the first place on something so subjective.

In Japan so many men are choosing to go their own way (MGTOW) there are serious worries about the future of the economy. These men the don't know TRP and aren't cheating on anyone. However they are in droves choosing not to be with a women and the existing culture of any "women unsettled by 27 is like left over meat at the table."

Toxic masculinity is a thing. Toxic femininity is a thing. If they aren't bitter, who cares what they do though. The problem with TRP is that it is beyond bitter, and the "anger phase" lingers in a lot of people to the point that I laugh every time someone on TRP says it is a phase.

TRP gives you the tools to cheat there are no reward points for doing so. If you check my post history I'm strongly against cheating, not for the same moral reason as you (it's dangerous to have people feel like everything going to shit is your fault.) but against cheating regardless.

I don't doubt you, but TRP, if it wanted to be taken more seriously, could take a moral stance. However, much of the time, all you see is a bunch of narcissists looking for validation sex/to get their dick wet. Obviously not the entire group, but that is what the majority of the group seems to be like.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

There is no singular truth about life, therefore, TRP cannot present itself as "the truth". The reality is that life is scary and complex, and TRP says many things that are contrary to that. As a whole, it acts as if it is the one true answer in a world where there is more than a correct answer. Not only is that arrogance (which is a staple of a lot of TRP posters), but it is also plain false to believe there is a singular truth in the first place on something so subjective.

There are biologically encoded actions and behaviors that most people take, while calling it 'the truth' is arrogant ignoring it is ignorant which should we choose?

Toxic masculinity is a thing. Toxic femininity is a thing.

Don't know these feminism terms.

The problem with TRP is that it is beyond bitter, and the "anger phase" lingers in a lot of people to the point that I laugh every time someone on TRP says it is a phase.

If anything I have resentment for men. The way some of them handle themselves and paint doormats on their faces, it's frustrating to deal with. At work I have a colleague who steps aside every time I round the corner, we could both slightly alter our paths and never collide but he insists on treating me like a superior person. My dad's ability to act as a doormat, has crippled my family, financially and emotionally so maybe it's not the RP fault that I have resentment for men, who place themselves below everyone else. I have not lasting anger to towards women. If one crosses me, I feel anger but not at the fact she has a vagina but at her actions, as I would a man.

TRP, if it wanted to be taken more seriously, could take a moral stance. However, much of the time, all you see is a bunch of narcissists looking for validation sex/to get their dick wet. Obviously not the entire group, but that is what the majority of the group seems to be like.

I agree but I don't care if TRP is never mainstream, makes my life easier, far less competition. No one wants to be unplugged anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

There are biologically encoded actions and behaviors that most people take, while calling it 'the truth' is arrogant ignoring it is ignorant which should we choose?

What? Biology isn't the only thing that drives people. It clearly isn't, as we are capable of deep thought.

Don't know these feminism terms.

Shame, you would probably benefit from understanding the concept. I'm not even a feminist, but anyway, toxic masculinity/femininity is the concept that having a certain standard of masculinity forced upon people is unhealthy. Same thing for femininity.

If anything I have resentment for men. The way some of them handle themselves and paint doormats on their faces, it's frustrating to deal with. At work I have a colleague who steps aside every time I round the corner, we could both slightly alter our paths and never collide but he insists on treating me like a superior person. My dad's ability to act as a doormat, has crippled my family, financially and emotionally so maybe it's not the RP fault that I have resentment for men, who place themselves below everyone else. I have not lasting anger to towards women. If one crosses me, I feel anger but not at the fact she has a vagina but at her actions, as I would a man.

/r/TheRealMisandry

Part of masculinity that is hyped up by mass culture IS the idea of being self-sacrificing. Change the culture if you want to see progress.

I agree but I don't care if TRP is never mainstream, makes my life easier, far less competition. No one wants to be unplugged anyway.

Good for you, but again, it simply is one of hundreds of thousands of methods that could work for individuals. One individuals "unplugged" could be another's "plugged in"

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The trouble with this isolation of TRP is that TRP isn't even a creator of original content. There are ideas that are more popular with TRPers, and ideas less popular with TRPers, but TRPers are bringing in ideas from the outside to discuss and dissect and analyze.

So, while there is quite a bit of consensus as to what ideas fit with the sub and what ideas don't, the basic premise of TRP is "if it works to further your action towards your goal, and it sustains your effectiveness, that's what counts."

FFS, most of the posters in TRP advocate against marriage, even though there is a ton of Red Pill material devoted solely to fostering and sustaining happy and fulfilling marriages.

Red Pill and PUA might share some of the same ideas, but they are very different in intent. Namely, Red Pill is (ultimately) focused on a picture much bigger than the simple "what you should do in X situation." Individuals looking to apply Red Pill ideas may have specific actions they recommend, but that's the individual, not Red Pill.

PUA has always been entertaining for me, but functionally, it's nearly irrelevant compared to Red Pill, as far as I'm concerned. My goals have always been different enough to relegate PUA stuff to "fun tricks" rather than critical distinctions.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TomHicksAntifeminist sans pills-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]setsfires 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]setsfires 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]setsfires 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]setsfires 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]setsfires 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DevilishRogueKnows more than you1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Using trp to save a relationship is only going to end up in disaster... it would be faster and less painful to shoot the dying animal than to use trp methods.

You claim to know many aspects of RP and say you would use them because you knew about them before the RP come along.

What if you knew about Dread Game, simply keeping your options open enough to give your partner a feeling they have to work a bit for you. Very attractive girls have constant dread game, the guy knows that she will be hit on constantly by guys far hotter than him. He must prove the is the best current partner for her. How would you feel acting it this way.

I think you'll see that relationships that involve trp are almost all eventually doomed, but only time will tell.

*This to will pass *

The best relationships of my life are thanks to the Red Pill. I don't regret them ending. I enjoyed my time with each girl, and look forward to seeing them ever new relationships on Facebook. The most important relationship, the one I have with myself is immeasurably improved. TRP gave me confidence to act it didn't strip me of my morals.

[–]setsfires 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You claim to know many aspects of RP and say you would use them because you knew about them before the RP come along.

I wouldn't* use them.

This crap isn't new. Trpers are putting a new spin on being a player, only disgustingly more so of one.

What if you knew about Dread Game, simply keeping your options open enough to give your partner a feeling they have to work a bit for you. Very attractive girls have constant dread game, the guy knows that she will be hit on constantly by guys far hotter than him. He must prove the is the best current partner for her. How would you feel acting it this way.

I know about dread game, it's nothing new, it's just manipulation. Shitty immature girls play games with shitty immature boys. I don't know why you guys keep picking up these girls.

This too will pass

The best relationships of my life are thanks to the Red Pill. I don't regret them ending. I enjoyed my time with each girl, and look forward to seeing them ever new relationships on Facebook. The most important relationship, the one I have with myself is immeasurably improved. TRP gave me confidence to act it didn't strip me of my morals.

I'm happy you found confidence, that's great.

Question, what do you think of women?

AWALT? Sluts?

Or NARPALT? If so, again, that's great!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I know about dread game, it's nothing new, it's just manipulation. Shitty immature girls play games with shitty immature boys. I don't know why you guys keep picking up these girls.

What is your subversion to manipulation? Every advert you see or hear is manipulation but there is no call to ban adverts. A girl waiting for the 3rd date to have sex to build an emotional connection with the man that leads to his commitment is blatant manipulation, are you against these too?

Question, what do you think of women? AWALT? Sluts? Or NARPALT? If so, again, that's great!

Women - In general, they are equal in intellect, rights. Superior in communication and relationships. Inferior in strength, ambition. They are NOT men with vaginas. I have know that long before the Red Pill. Lucky they have the odds stacked in their favor. Strength, isn't required in the modern world. Ambition isn't required for either men or women. Go to school --> Go to Uni --> Career --> Die. That and men and women treat women special. Look at the abhorring movement of fat acceptance. More like diabetes acceptance. Instead of telling women get the fuck over yourselves and stop eating shit, they post love yourself (because God know no one else will).

AWALT - It's sticky. I have a fwb at the moment. She wants to be a self made millionaire. Doesn't want no man telling her what to do(me in bed withstanding). I think to myself this girls past has steeled her against the AWALT mantra, but then soon her deeds, not words (facta, non verba) reveal otherwise. I think AWALT is the default for girls. However women through, their own actions and reactions to situations gradually step away from it. This girl fit the mold in places but not others. I not going discuss her past as it's not my place to say however I believe it's the emotional experiences of her past that cause her to break this mold. Their experiences have tempered them as the forge tempers the iron.

Sluts - Education, past achievements and crimes. People have the right to judge you for your past behaviour. If a girl does every depraved thing for one man and withholds that from another. That man has the right to feel like the stocks he bought pretty much guaranteed to go up have crashed. A RP man should ditch her, a BP man may ditch her or harbor resentment (et al. /r/relationships) as the relationship continues. Being a slut hurts LTR potential. I've seen links to such studies all over this subreddit.

I don't know NARPALT, I assume it's Not All RP Are Like That. Don't know what you imply by that. My number one concern with TRP is it becoming an ideology. As it stands people cherry pick only the most extreme examples, soon I fear they'll only pick the 'correct' examples.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]jacks10000 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]jacks10001 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

it would be faster and less painful to shoot the dying animal than to use trp methods.

TheBluePill, being feminist, is against love. It's all about being stingy with love, being selfish, tamping down a woman's natural motivations to help others, to serve the ones they love.

TheBluePill is pretty consistent - they are pro-divorce, pro-breakup, pro-promiscuity. For a man to do anything to save his relationship is "abuse" according to the blue pill.

Blue Pillers are malicious people, they know that the kind of advice they give people will lead to heartarche, broken families, and the like.

They know it, they do it on purpose, because they are malicious people.

I think you'll see that relationships that involve trp are almost all eventually doomed, but only time will tell

Just meaninglesss garbage, the red pill was considered common sense for years, most happy marriages are "red pill."

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]winndixie0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

I would never have allowed my relationship to get to the point where I had no sex for a year let alone 10, and nor would my SO. We both agree sex is really important and something that sometimes requires work from one or both of us.

If we magically changed that attitude we have the kind of relationship where we can calmly discuss our problems or fears without recrimination, tantrums or self-destructive behaviour. Both of us are rational, reasonable and communicative and committed to fixing, not running from, any problems our relationship has.

I'm not surprised people with shitty relationships, shitty communication skills and shitty conflict-resolution end up miserable.

I'm also not against divorce for anyone who has tried their best and is still unhappy. Someone who is in a multi-year unhappy marriage is doing something wrong.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Villaintine╰▄︻▄╯5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

By "that", I assume you mean the marital attitude that you advocated above?

If so, I agree that that is the optimal way to engage in ANY relationship. That is, in my experience, the optimal way to be a human being - being rational, reasonable, communicating clearly and powerfully, and solving problems rather than running from them. I don't know that anyone would ever argue with that. That is the ideal.

Unfortunately, life often doesn't play out as it ideally should. Humans be human. They get attached to ideas or plans. They feel strongly about things, often to the point of being irrational or unreasonable. Their fear (or complacency) can overwhelm their commitments. They are notoriously shitty at communicating, especially when they have to communicate something really, really important to them. When faced with conflict, they often don't fight fair. They even can and do act against their own best interests.

Add to that the feeling of being inextricably bound to another human being, with all their needs and wants and feelings and demands, and the set up for acting less-than-ideally is all in place. That's why so many parents are stressed out - they often feel totally at a loss when faced with a responsibility so great.

Being human isn't always pretty, and nothing highlights the less-flattering side of humans than the crucible called "lifetime partnership", especially when their energies are being consumed by family obligations, work obligations, etc.

As far as "egalitarian" and "shared leadership", I have no real paradigm for such relationships. Human beings all have individual strengths and weaknesses - no two people are equal in all things. I don't even think I have any "egalitarian" friendships. Not all viewpoints carry the same weight, especially when it involves something very important to me. I'm not going to be "egalitarian" just for the sake of making everyone in my life feel better about themselves if it means I lose out on something important to me (though if their feeling better about themselves is more important than the "something" is to me, I may go with making them feel better about themselves). My personal life is strictly a "meritocracy", since I'm the one who must live with the results and must therefore extricate myself from any messes.

And true leadership results from inspiration and motivation, not by decree. My goal is not to force others to follow me (as a "Ruler" would), but rather to be a person others (including my wife) want to follow.

Of course my wife takes leadership on some things. I'm not going to dismiss an inspired course of action simply because it comes from a woman.

However, if my wife finds that she's the only one coming up with inspired courses of action in every area of our marriage, she's not going to be happy. She loves me most when I'm leading her in life, not when she's dragging me behind her (our sex life plummeted when my ability to lead in our relationship diminished - she still loved me as a person, but the attraction fizzled).

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Life and marirage plays out just fine for ~50% of people.

That's a good track record? For one of the most, if not the most, important moves of someone's life? Saying "It's a coin toss as to whether your life will turn out or not" doesn't seem very encouraging to me.

Personally I think I'm top 1%, let alone 50%.

What gets me about so many BPrs is a certain sense of hubris. A sense of their own rightness, to the point of feeling invincible.

Here's the thing - the Red Pill may not be well articulated, and may well be applied poorly and/or unethically, but there is at least a question at the heart of it. It's purpose is, if nothing else, to question the dominant paradigm for sex/love/relationships, a paradigm that accepts a 50% failure rate for one of the most vital parts of being human.

I am not saying that you and others don't have a strong marriage. Undoubtedly you do, as do many others. As did I, for many years. I fully believe that very strong, very empowering marriages are possible.

But I also learned, the hard way, that even the best, most powerful, most amazing marriages can fall apart, often through no intentional fault of either individual. The two people involved are human, and as humans, they are fallible. Every single human being is fallible. Therefore, every marriage is fallible, and unless the people involved take it upon themselves to constantly strive for growth and development, their inherent fallibility might get the best of them.

My own marriage was widely-considered to be one of the "1%-ers" for many years. Everyone in our community looked at our marriage as the one to emulate. We were told over and over again what an inspiration our marriage was for others. We were the people in our community that others went to for marriage/relationship advice, and the people to whom our community referred their friends for matters regarding love/marriage.

And we were proud of that. We both held our marriage as the single most incredible achievement either of us had accomplished in our lives.

Which is why we were both so devastated when we realized how much it had fallen apart. I can only say that it was akin to a religious person suddenly losing all of their faith in God. Our marriage was the one true thing in our lives - the one thing that, no matter what else happened, would be there for us. And then, one day, we realized it wasn't. That realization created an existential crisis from which we still haven't recovered (though we're working on it, albeit very slowly).

The whole "my marriage will never be desperate enough to require any adjustments the Red Pill might suggest" reminds me of the political joke that a Conservative is just a Liberal that hasn't lost their job yet. I get that a lot of BPers think that having to figure out new ways to make sex/love/relationships work in their lives won't ever happen to them (and I sincerely hope that it doesn't), but that sense of hubris and invincibility stands out starkly to those of us who have had to rethink everything about what we held to be true.

[–]l_____o_____lBluish Purple Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

A good post.

Fundamentally, while it may be hubris on my part to suggest my (and my partners') personal qualities (including, obviously, the ability to identify long term compatibility) will lead to our marriage succeeding, it may also be rationalisation (of the faltering of your marriage) on yours to suggest that personal qualities are not enough.

It would be interesting to see some widespread studies of why some marriages succeed and others fail (causation, not just correlation).

Out of interest, do you think it would be wrong to suggest you "dropped the ball" on your marriage? I dont really understand how both partners can do all the right things (talk through and resolve problems, express appreciation and love daily, listen, share etc) and still be hit by a sudden realisation of the kind you are describing. How does that happen?

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

Fundamentally, while it may be hubris on my part to suggest my (and my partners') personal qualities (including, obviously, the ability to identify long term compatibility) will lead to our marriage succeeding, it may also be rationalisation (of the faltering of your marriage) on yours to suggest that personal qualities are not enough.

I'm not trying to suggest that personal qualities are not enough, I don't think. I'm suggesting that A) the personal qualities that are sufficient for today may not be sufficient for tomorrow, and B) that the specific set of personal qualities you experience today may change tomorrow. People change, sometimes a lot, and a marriage that cannot weather such changes is doomed to fail. Different qualities are needed at different times (which is why Red Pill advocates that a man in a LTR needs an arsenal of both Alpha and Beta qualities to draw from).

It would be interesting to see some widespread studies of why some marriages succeed and others fail (causation, not just correlation).

I would opine, based on both personal experience and conjecture, that most marriages fail because they hit an obstacle that neither partner feels equipped to overcome. That, or a build-up of resentments and grudges accumulated over the years eventually sinks the marriage, like so many barnacles on a ship. I've had several close friends divorce in the last couple of years, and they all suffered from one or both of those maladies.

Out of interest, do you think it would be wrong to suggest you "dropped the ball" on your marriage?

Yes, of course. I would say that both my wife and I dropped the ball, though probably in different ways. And I have to concern myself with how and where I dropped the ball, given that I have no power to fix or change my wife.

I dont really understand how both partners can do all the right things (talk through and resolve problems, express appreciation and love daily, listen, share etc) and still be hit by a sudden realisation of the kind you are describing.

Generally speaking, I would conjecture that it doesn't happen like that. It certainly didn't in my case. It's not a matter of "doing all the right things" and still having something fail. It's a matter of not finding a way to "do all the right things" in every situation.

Everyone (generally) knows and subscribes to the relationship script that you are providing. It's fairly incontrovertible. The problem is that it is A) incomplete, and B) as subject to fallibility as anything else we humans involve ourselves in. Humans are imperfect, and are notorious for going off-script (as a former economics major, I can tell you that economics would have been a shitload easier if human beings acted appropriately all the time).

My wife and I both spent almost two decades studying, training, and practicing the principles of leadership. We're no strangers to effective communication and conflict resolution. We know how relationships work most productively and effectively, yet, when shit gets really tough, we sometimes find ourselves unable or unwilling to "do the right thing." Doing the right thing just seems impossible in certain situations. We just can't seem to find the strength or wisdom to chart a course out of our predicament. The fear, the anger, the resignation, the doubt, the weakness or whatever it is that is standing in the way just seems to overwhelm our abilities.

Of course, the "sudden realization" often doesn't seem so "sudden" when looked at in hindsight. We can both trace the roots of the problem back many years. We just inadvertently and unadvisedly ignored or neglected those roots, and now have a huge mess on our hands.

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[–]TomHicksAntifeminist sans pills0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]hyperrrealLoves fun1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Transleithanian-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hyperrrealLoves fun1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Transleithanian2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link