A discussion about the state of OLD, and how it is as a woman, and what to do as a man.

This is a conversation between /u/luliloo and I that started in this Thread.

The purpose is of this first conversation is simple: Start a productive discussion regarding the attractive female perspective here about OLD, and get some politically incorrect (but honest) commentary from someone you might find yourself swiping on.

Average men are no longer qualifying for average women on OLD. It's very hard to get women to see men's perspective and have empathy, because even the average woman has it easy finding suitors on OLD. Their perspective is no different than Bill Gates guessing that pizza roles cost $22. It's just a completely different world.

When it comes to OLD, basic genes really do play a shitty but realistic role. While you can’t control how tall you are, you can control what type of OLD profile you build, and what your expectations are. OLD does a lot of damage to men’s egos while unreasonably bolstering women’s. The real question men should focus on is how you present yourself, and how you should demonstrate that you're worth talking to over the other guys in her list. Remember, it's not about being a 6/10 for men in OLD, its about being 8/10.

Guys dating in the modern world can focus on is the self improvement portions of TRP for the best results:

1. Building of your boundaries (which you decide, not the ladies)
2. Your social game, and make no mistake, OLD profiles are a game.
3. Learning to demonstrate the quality of your life with higher quality photos. Too many men use low effort selfies. Just because women can doesn’t mean you can to.
4. Getting in shape. Seriously, $10/20 month is all it takes to get a gym membership. Don't listen to what anyone tells you about fat being OK, they're sabotaging you and costing you dates.

Responses below from /u/luliloo will be in italics, for reference.

You say you're on the attractive side of tinder, what qualifies you as attractive?

In my original post, I said I was good looking and fit. Some of the women in the thread got fixated on that phrasing and stated that since I’m above average, I’m an outlier so my perspective does not apply. Honey, no. I’m hella average but I’m good looking. There’s nothing that special about my features. You wouldn’t be able to point me out from a crowd of Asian girls. I can be ugly and gorgeous and plain and guys still love it. Cliché ugly duckling tale, I grew up looking lame. I had to learn how to look good. Which is why I think other people can do the same.

I’m Asian, 32 years old, 5’4”, size 4 dress, 120 pounds. Besides my looks, I feel attractive for other things I bring to the table as well, such as desiring domesticity.

One of the best lessons ever taught to me was by a shallow woman I dated briefly. The actual amount of selfies it takes to get that perfect picture is staggering (like, 50/60 pictures to maybe get one good one). Women spend a lot of time working on looking good in photos. If you’re not spending similar time on looking good yourself, you shouldn’t expect to be there. Guys that are having good “luck” spend time on this as well. Everyone loves good pics when they happen, but most pics aren’t good pics.

Now, before we get down into it, how did you end up getting involved in Red Pill, and what were your early thoughts?

I recently started seeing a HVM (high value male - see Kevin Samuels content on Youtube) so maybe that’s a qualifier for my attractiveness too. He’s the reason I learned about TRP because I was scoping out his Instagram profile in detail.

Pro-tip: Check what Instagram hashtags they are following. It is listed at the top when you click into their “following” list. Check your own list to make sure it’s all appropriate too. Girls will judge your instagram hard.

He was following #redpill and I had never heard of it. I ended up deep diving into the TRP world. I was looking at the IG posts with the hashtag. Some I disagreed with and some I agreed with. Then I came across a video clip of Kevin Samuels that really blew my mind how he was able to counter all her beliefs. Her beliefs were similar to mine. The video was Canadian Dry Tinder Girl.

That clip led me to his YouTube, and I spiraled down from there. Ended up at Fresh & Fit videos and watched a ton. I tried other YouTubers, but I liked the live debate style these two have. I don’t like some of what they say and sometimes I find them cringe in trying to act fake alpha but overall learned a lot. Actually I like Andrew Tate a lot because he’s funny in his over-the-top ways.

Knowing TRP has changed my behavior in dating this guy now. Especially because he’s HV and follows TRP. I haven’t told him that I know about it.

Instagram is validation that your life is worth being next to. If you’re spending weekends at home, you need to get out and get moving. There are plenty of free or low cost activities that can be used to juice some spice in there. Spending time alone learning to take selfies is a great skill as well, and the vast majority of the women I’ve dated spend time without realizing it getting better at this.

Smart phone tripod and remote

This is a fine place to start. Most modern smart phones take great pics, and you can mess with low-key filters to take care of minor things. I keep this tripod in my hiking pack in my trunk, and whenever I solo hike or do something interesting, it's easy to have on hand. Pictures matter on OLD.

Now, let’s get down to the OLD questions.

Firstly, are you aware that it’s simultaneously the most popular way to meet a partner in the USA, but also the statistically worst method for men?

No, I didn’t. I know it’s hard for men on OLD but I figured other methods would be even harder. I’ve never gone for a guy that approached me IRL unless it was a friend of a friend, someone at work, etc. Otherwise they are too random and stranger danger.

This is a sign that OLD is just going to get more and more popular. Not learning OLD is a bad plan, it’s only growing in popularity and women don’t even realize how bad it is for men. Generic meetup spots like bars are fading, so either get a social network and depend on that, or adapt to OLD.

What do you think about the fact that OLD is just straight up both the worst thing for men, and also necessary for them to be on?

I definitely think it’s necessary for people who want to date to be on it. I also think it’s just going to be hard for men with any channel.

Do you think something needs to be done in order to balance the OLD gender dynamic problem for men?

No, I don’t think anything can be done. It’s just the way it is. Women will always have more options. What if all guys just collectively stepped up their game? Became more impressive. That’s the only thing I can think of that would change things. However, that would mean more competition for the guys at the top right now, so they would not want that.

Any thoughts on what you’d do on the Tinder-style platform to help make the experience better for the users?

They should offer coaching and consultation services. Ghostwriters too haha. Guys need their profile reviewed! So many have room for improvement.

Hopefully this type of conversation can be a good starting place. If you have lady friends, guys, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have them review your profile if you think they'd be honest, but they need to be brutal or it'll hurt you more than it will help.

Which platforms/apps have you used and which did you prefer?

I did Tinder, Bumble, some Hinge and some Seeking Arrangements. I haven’t been OLD much recently, but went on lots of dates in the past. I thought the quality of guys were better on Bumble and Hinge. Quality as in: good looking, good job and looking for commitment.

I like how women message first on Bumble because I feel bad when guys spend time writing a good opener but I’m not actually interested. When I swipe right it’s more like, “let me think about it”. Then I’ll actually message the ones I match with and want to message after reviewing their profile a second time.

On Hinge, I like how you’re forced to do 6 photos. Seeing different angles, lighting and situations is important. I don’t like the prompts they provide. A lot of them I wouldn’t recommend using.

It’s important to understand this phrase:

When I swipe right it’s more like, “let me think about it”.

Men swipe and would go out with a woman immediately afterwards. Women are basically moving guys to a second tier in the swiping process. Learn to not think about matches as meaning much if you want to make it through this phase. Expect to lose here if the woman has no bio for you to grab on to, best you’ll get is a shot to try a joke or lure her on a bait comment about one of her photos. If you want her to comment on yours, you need to have something worth commenting on as well.

On the various apps, how many matches do you have right now, broken down by apps?

It’s not about the number of matches. If I like someone, most likely, I’ll get a match. If I don’t match, I’ll have forgotten about them and not realize we didn’t match. I could like every single profile and get tons of matches. That doesn’t help me. I’d still need to weed through all the profiles.

I try to match with as few guys as possible. It’s annoying to talk to so many people. To tell people how your day was over and over again.

But I also don’t want FOMO on a guy. If I skip him, I might not see them come up again so I’ll swipe right to be on the safe side. But as soon as I’m lazy or there are better potentials, I let the conversation die or not initiate the conversation in the first place.

Always remember we’re not playing the same game.

“If I like someone, most likely, I’ll get a match”

The reason they don’t care about you is because this is how easy it is. Don’t match women who don’t have something you can start an opener with, because it’s only going to frustrate you and it actually makes the dating market worse by inflating the egos of people who probably won’t swipe on you. Look at men’s swiping stats, and do the opposite.

How do you handle the quantity of matches? (Assuming you have a lot).

I want as few guys to deal with at once so I have to start filtering them out. It would also be awkward to go out with so many guys at once, so I prefer to stagger talking to them if possible. As I’m chatting with them, I’ll keep revisiting their profile to re-evaluate if I’m actually interested. Factors include:

• How’s the conversation going
• What’s his personality so far
• Lifestyle/what kind of person is he
• Attractiveness
• Job/Wealth - I’d consider a variety of things as an indicator of wealth. Career is usually a big one. You don’t know how much they make but you can ballpark a range. You also know if the job salary has a ceiling. You can kinda tell wealth from looking at someone’s photos. Their Car, house, neighborhood they live in, clothes they wear and their hobbies are all clues. Where do they go, where do they eat, who they hang out with, etc. Even talking to someone, you can get a feel for their attitude around money or spending. Someone could have no job but if their family comes from money, they will have a different vibe about things.
• Height
• Age - Same or older, I prefer someone a couple years older and ready to settle down

Conversation: Opener, Back/Forth, Schedule. If she isn't back/forth'ing with you, move on. If she is, you can give her time to feel you out. Don't allow yourself to be disrespected by women who don't give you attention. Women will respond quickly when they’re into you. Don’t torture yourself trying to ride a lame horse.

Personality: Is the conversation going well? Women often need to be hooked, but once they are it'll be obvious. Learn how to banter and gently tease.

Lifestyle: Are there too many boring selfies? Pictures of yourself cooking are better than pictures of yourself in a mirror. If you can’t cook, HelloFresh offers a great product to help you get started.

Attractiveness: Head over to r/malefashionadvice and other subreddits and start learning. You don’t have to spend a ton of money to step this up, just some basic competence.

Job/Wealth: Either make more, or learn to demonstrate what you have effectively. Most women have no idea if you have an older luxury car (like a 10 year Benz) if it’s in great shape, so there is some flex here. Keep your car damn clean.

Height: This one sucks. Swipe left if she's taller than you, there really isn’t a solution to this one.

Age: Don’t be significantly younger. On average, don’t be more than +10 years over.

What are the things that stand out to you when you're browsing profiles?

Honestly, something thoughtful and intelligent in their bio stands out. Keep it short and simple, no one wants to read. Let your photos do the talking. They need to be good photos. Think about how you want to come across and check if your photos show that.

For me, I want to show that I can dress up, dress down, gym, chill, etc. That I’m nice, normal and smart.

This pretty much doesn’t need clarification, but lets highlight:

Keep it *short and simple*, *no one* wants to *read**. Let your* *photos do the talking**. They need to be* *good photos**.*

What things that immediately earn a rejection?

• Ethnicity for sure because ideally I want someone who speaks the same language as me since my parents aren’t that great with English. Then I’ll allow white guys if they catch my eye. No to everything else, including other Asians.
• If he’s that unattractive
• If he’s too lame/soft looking - nerdy/fem
• If I can tell he’s an asshole/douchey kinda guy
• Too many tattoos/gangster looking
• If I’m iffy on his looks, then his job is the dealbreaker (if listed)
• If he doesn’t have a clear photo of his face - I assume that means he’s not good looking
• If he sounds dumb
• Don’t talk about what you *don’t\ wan**t - You sound* negative and *picky**. Filter your swipes yourself*
• Don’t talk about what you want in a woman. Talk about who *you* are and I’ll decide if I’m interested. Don’t give us criteria. Ex. don’t say “Looking for someone who likes the outdoors”, instead say, “I like the outdoors”
• *Don’t have pics standing next to tall people**. Even if you’re tall, that’s going to make you look short.*
• Don’t have pics standing next to more attractive guys

There's a lot here, so I bolded the most obvious ones that guys should be aware of, because they’re the things you can actually help.

What are your thoughts about the experience for women on OLD apps?

Having conversations with people over and over again gets annoying really fast. I lose interest and give up easily. OLD is very on and off. Don’t ask me questions that are hard to answer because I’ll put my phone down to answer later and then I’ll forget and never get back to it.

I also don’t need a fancy opener. I think, “Hey, how’s your weekend going?” is perfectly fine. If I engage, then start putting in effort to be interesting.

Honestly, this answer is straight enough. Ignore women that want you to come up with some super clever intro, something quick off a picture/bio is the most I’ll put into the opener, because it just won’t get you anywhere and stats show a .gif works just as well.

Given that OLD conversations get so repetitive for women, what is your general advice for men to move these conversations to a live conversation quicker?

Tough question because yeah, the convo gets old, but I am also hesitant to meet people. So ideally, your profile looks good, our convo is enjoyable, and you check off my boxes. Probably a time limited incentive would get me to meet you sooner. Harder during COVID, but normally, I mean an event happening, before the weather turns cold, etc. something that is now or never.

Otherwise, how willing a girl is to meet you IRL usually depends on how she feels about you and what her other options are at the moment.

Especially during COVID, I think doing a video chat before meeting in person is a good idea. Keep it short and casual. Like answer while you’re finishing up a task, not seated at a table like an interview. The HVM brought up the idea and when we met in person, I felt more comfortable like I kinda knew him already. He showed me what his place looked like on the video call too, I would guess as a way to show off and make me feel more comfortable coming over in the future.

I personally don’t recommend video chats, but in the CV19 world it’s becoming common enough. I find that most women who are still super worried about CV19 aren’t going to be great dates, and while they might be worth dating once they’re over their fear, right now it's tough to justify the effort for someone who won’t get closer than 6 feet. That said, this may become a common thing, in which case you’ll need a not-shit webcam or phone cam for facetime. Don’t throw away a meetup on a $10 cam and mic combo.

Hopefully you’ve enjoyed this back and forth. I think it’s as important that we be open to real and helpful discussion as it is that we battle back on falsities. A huge portion of PPD is just hating on the other side, and while I’m perfectly happy to shove indefinitely on false narratives, it’s important that both guys and gals can own the reality that conversations like these can help make more honest.

/u/luliloo has stated that she is interested in answering questions if there are some productive questions asked, and ladies your participation and comments are encouraged. Please keep in mind, the point of this post is to have a productive discussion about the male OLD experience, and how to improve it (which in turn will improve the ladies experience as well), and not this thread into a bashing contest. There are plenty of other threads for that.