The basics and a question.

DangZagnut · 2020-09-07T19:22:07+00:00

Discussing women’s poor qualities only seems like anger and hate because women have had such a privilege of continual societal worship that anything less than constant approval and validation mist be hate.

If feminism can “hate” men for pointing out inequalities and injustice, why can’t men do the same? Oh right, pussy worshipping.

Maximum_Afternoon · 2020-09-07T19:33:32+00:00

bit·ter/ˈbidər

(of people or their feelings or behavior) angry, hurt, or resentful because of one's bad experiences or a sense of unjust treatment.

Angry and resentful due to one's bad experiences? Check. Who says I can't be, or I shouldn't be?

Come back after your kids get taken away, and tell us all about how you're not angry. After having spent decades supporting your spouse and children, then to be handed a bill for hundreds of thousands of dollars, to have some pissant woman lawyer make up bullshit to get another woman family court judge to issue child seizure orders... only to all be turned over later. No "sorry, got that wrong". Just another bill for thousands more.

People coming in here all the time with "why are you so bitter?" Fuck outta here with that.

You seem to be under the delusion that "well, if one woman did that, you can't extrapolate to all women". Wrong. All women are operating under the same legal system. Therefor they all carry the same risk.

"Oh, everyone's improving themselves, so it's fine, be happy." Again, fuck off: from your point of view, you leave a relationship and just go do yoga. From my point of view, I leave a relationship, get a bill for about $300,000 and lose my house.

Marriage is not worth the risk of bothering with. For anyone with assets or the potential for future assets, women are not worth cohabitation with. You don't get anything out of that which is nearly worth the investment.

NotherThrowaway284 · 2020-09-07T20:59:49+00:00

Which leads me to question where the...um, bitterness? anger? vitriol? come from in some posts/comments.

It has gotten a lot worse on here in the past year or so since arr/MGTOW got quarantined whereby a lot of more bitter (and often younger) guys tried to move over here for their oh-so-public kvetching parties.
Not everyone who seeks personal liberation has achieved it and some are nearer it while others still have a long way to go. By analogy: no Buddhist starts out a bodhisattva, right?

I’m in no way suggesting every mgtow is bitter, I know there are plenty who are not.

Correct.

Why wouldn’t a mgtow just be proud of their choice and move on with their lives?

Some of us do.

If you’re angry, I’m curious why, and if you’re not I’m curious why

"When you understand a thing, you know what it's capable of."

-Blade

but also what you think of the angry ones.

I think most of them wish they could get over it but they're too hung up on revenge fantasies plus they're afraid getting over it isn't truly possible so they daren't earnestly try (too many disappointments in life already).

pilllogical · 2020-09-08T02:55:13+00:00

I could go on and on analyzing this but I won't.

For me, I am most angry at myself for finding this... too late. If only I had known this long ago my life would be very different. Unfortunately like others mention, men don't find this knowledge without a reason which usually somehow involves a woman.

Us guys need to change, we need to learn to take care of each other and share this knowledge. Maybe it's just me and I've never had a decent male role model. I'm not suggesting any man should or shouldn't agree or support. I am suggesting that men should be aware of and make their own choices with this knowledge.

As for anger could be - see above regarding finding this too late, otherwise feeling the humiliation of been deceived. Also realizing the system is stacked against you, not just you but your whole sex. So why wouldn't you lash out against them?

I guess.

King_Yautja · 2020-09-08T07:25:46+00:00

We have a term for the anger it's called "the red pill rage". It really is like the 5 stages of death. The guys who are bitter, vitriolic and yes maybe come across as a bit misogynistic are in the anger stage. The reason for the red pill rage is because we've been lied to. We're told do this, be that, treat women like this, and you'll meet a nice woman and settle down for a nice life. It's all bullshit. The red pill is finding out you've been sold a false bill of goods your whole life by people whom you trusted, so there's legitimate reason to be angry. But it doesn't last. You do get over it you realise you can't just be angry forever you need to let it go and you reach the "acceptance" stage.

Guys in the red pill rage stage are probably overrepresented in the online community, because they need somewhere to vent. They need to talk to someone who "gets it". Guys that have moved passed it are the ones you hear from less, because they are off proudly doing their own thing.

Solo_and_Simple · 2020-09-08T13:19:28+00:00

I'm 59, and I'm not at all angry, so I'm not speaking for myself here, but attempting to articulate some of the reasons why men -- especially younger men -- might be angry, rather than just go their own way happily content. And I want to preface by saying I think getting stuck in resentment/anger/blame is poisonous, and I urge men to move through this as quickly as possible.

However, there are a number of understandable reasons:

50 years of feminism telling men they are idiots, aggressors, perpetrators, losers, trash, etc. This has not gotten better and is only escalating. You don't have to be a feminist to buy into this at some level, because it is so pervasive in the culture -- everyone (including men) get indoctrinated into it. Naturally, it makes you angry when you discover how bad your society has crapped on you for decades, and continues to.
Not to get too psychological, but a lot of the anger is a defense against shame, born of the factors mentioned above. Men hear and internalize these "men are trash" messages. One of the most common defenses against shame, especially for men, is anger. After all, it's one of the few emotions men are allowed to have.
At 47, you're probably not in a position to understand this, but dating apps have really changed the landscape for young men. Young women, who are in their prime SMV years, are able, through dating apps, to get a TON of male validation very easily, at their fingertips, with just a few clicks. Young women chase the "Chads" and "Tyrones," the top 10% of guys. The result is that 90% of young men are turned away by young women. Since young men are very sexually driven and often measure their self-worth by criteria related to female validation/sex, this situation causes them to feel terrible about themselves and very frustrated. This leads to anger.
In contrast to the idea of the patriarchy (men are in power/control), there is a long list of ways that men are disadvantaged and abused. Homelessness rates, suicide rates, work death rates, draft laws, deaths in war, early death from stress/self-neglect, divorce laws, child custody laws, false allegations, disproportionate attention to women's health issues and neglect of men's, sentencing disparities, scholarship assistance differentials, etc. This is ignored by the media, who spin an entirely different narrative. When men learn about these things, naturally feel sadness and anger.
The sad truth is that men are usually viewed by women and society as utilities, resources (or, lately, threats), rather than primarily as human beings. Empathy for men is not easy to come by, even among men. Lack of empathy tends to hurt, and one response to hurt is anger.

There is more to say, but I'll leave it at that. I again want to emphasize that getting stuck in anger/resentment is a bad place to be. I hope anyone who is stuck there gets unstuck fast. On the other hand, I understand the anger. There is plenty of reason for it.

DonMelbourne · 2020-09-07T23:13:34+00:00

There are men who simply blame others for their own problems. It is much easier to try to fix the problems of the world than to try to fix the problems within one-self.

In the MSM, if MGTOW is mentioned at all, it is referred to as a misogynistic movement -- men who hate women that won't sleep with them. This attracts certain men to MGTOW -- that is, it attracts men who hate women that won't sleep with them.

You can see lots of posts on MGTOW1 (r/MGTOW) from such men. So the reputation that MGTOW has as a woman-hating group is warranted. MGTOW1 used to be a lot more positive.

MGTOW2 (r/MGTOW2) represents MGTOW as it should be: a positive idea that tells men that they don't have to be "stay-at-work" fathers. If you look at the side-bar Subreddit Rules for MGTOW2, the first one is:

No Women-hating, hate, and negativity in general: Keep the misogyny to a minimum. This is a place for focusing on positivity of mgtow for men, not for focusing on women or their bad behavior.

Having said that: I can understand the reasons why some men are angry. Imagine having access to your children stripped from you due to false accusations from an ex-wife. It seems to have happened to a lot of men. Now imagine that the man is living in a society where this problem is largely ignored. If a man didn't get angry from that, he wouldn't be human.

And there are other examples, with lesser consequences. The base cause does seem to be legal entanglements with women. By avoiding anything to do with that (marriage and cohabitation), men can avoid a lot of problems! There are consequences from that decision, as you note. There are potential benefits that some men will miss out on. So it is a decision that each man needs to make for himself.

To me, MGTOW is freedom. Freedom from having to conform to society's roles about what a man should be. Feminism played an important and necessary part in redefining a woman's role to be more than just a "stay-at-home" mother. MGTOW does the same thing for men.

When second-wave feminism started, it was criticized for being a "man-hating", "selfish" and "angry" movement. Now, no doubt there were such angry and man-hating women. No doubt some of those women had reason to be man-hating and angry. But that really doesn't define feminism. It was the easiest way for the MSM to criticize it at the time. I think MGTOW will be seen as a "woman-hating movement" (MGTOW is not a movement nor necessarily "women-hating") for quite a while for the same reason.

This has turned out to be a longer response than I planned! But I hope I have explained where that bitterness comes from: it comes from seeing the experiences of men and their interactions with women, especially interactions with legal consequences. But the bitterness no more defines MGTOW than it does feminism.

Personally, I see MGTOW as a wonderful positive philosophy. I hate the negativity about women in MGTOW1. I have made great women friends, and I encourage MGTOWs to do the same. But I believe in the common sense approach: "Never make a contract with someone who can benefit from breaking the contract." Marriage is not for me.

TheApricotCavalier · 2020-09-07T23:33:17+00:00

Think of me as a reporter, I’m just taking in what you have to say, and not trying to battle any opinion.

No thank you.

2020-09-08T05:21:10+00:00

Many men still going burned via divorce rape and alimony. There is no femininity to miss out in western society. Femininity doesn’t exist in the west.

cleats4u · 2020-09-08T11:31:49+00:00

Labeling men bitter for discussing the varying horrible natures of women and their takeover of government the past 40 years? Admission quotas on college campuses, diversity quotas in the work place, domestic violence, wage equality for unequal work etc. The modern female is practically a government agent. All that legislation the ladies got passed against men now gets used against them. As men go into hiding you turn on each other and become more violent. And the government is going to become more violent against you. You will be tear gassed and beat down in the streets by the government just like a man would...perhaps even worse. Good luck, I've got popcorn to eat, beer to drink. And if I want sex with a woman, I can order that in like pizza too. The price for that is going way down as you ladies undercut each other. Bitter? No way! Lol.

Robert_is_a_Loser · 2020-09-07T21:12:02+00:00

Basically men go through a "Red Pill Cycle" very similar to the stages of grief. In general, the five stages of grief are described as:

Stage 1: Denial aka Stage 2: Anger Stage 3: Bargaining Stage 4: Depression Stage 5: Acceptance

The bitterness, anger, vitriol, etc. you see in posts/comments comes from those men, knowingly or unknowingly, stuck in "anger stage" (or what we in the community call the "red pill rage" stage) There aren't any way to track numbers but if I had to guess I would say this makes up a significant chunk of the community. You made some fair points. I agree you should direct that anger at those who wronged you, specifically, and not apply it to women "as a collective." I think that's one of the negatives of the Red Pill community honestly. Many don't care about self improvement aspects MGTOW provides because they rather hear more about "female nature." I tread carefully because MGTOW appears to be growing more "dogmatic" as time goes by and is reminding me of a certain women's movement. Even I cannot ignore the the hypocrisy of getting upset when feminists make blanket accusations like "ALL men are pigs" then being able to say "ALL women are (insert belief here)" It's a very slippery slope.

I am not angry because I have been fortunately enough to make it past the "red pill rage" phase. If this had been years ago I wold have probably been one of the posts you are talking about. Speaking from experience of Red Pill Rage you are blinded by anger. The anger empowers you and you have a community to vindicate said anger but...you have to let the anger go...and it's hard. Especially when you are hurt it is hard to let go of that anger because you KNOW you are justified with being angry. You have people TELLING you that you are justified in your anger...and you still must let the anger go.

Where I will say you get it wrong is that unmarried men should be able to be angry. I understood what you were going for but some unmarried men watch as their father, uncle, brother, cousin, etc. gets screwed over and THAT is why they are angry. They could have been dating women and THAT is what made them angry. Men who discover Red Pill and/or MGTOW don't do it by "chance." Many are seeking answers. Either for themselves or someone they care about...

...with that said I do not think it is healthy to hold on to that "anger" indefinitely. Yes. Be angry. Get mad. Give yourself a reasonable amount of time to let it out but then after that time expires you gotta build a bridge and get over it or risk that anger being a detriment to not only yourself but the people around you. In psychology I learned that "behavior breeds behavior" and I think regardless of male or female we can agree that "hurt people hurt people."

troublebanana · 2020-09-09T08:45:55+00:00

You ask: if MGTOW is a personal choice, why the anger then? You're right in saying it is a personal choice, but some of us are rather angry at the options themselves: 1. A failing relationship, since monogamy is dead or 2. going your own way. Both of them are not great, but MGTOW is the lesser evil. The next step then is to accept the world as it is and fully embrace your choice, which takes some time and work. Meanwhile, the posts with a "negative vibe" about women also serve to remind us why we made the choice.

Title	The basics and a question.
Author	alwaysrightusually
Upvotes	1
Comments	14
Date	September 7, 2020 7:07 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MGTOW2
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW2/comments/iodska/the_basics_and_a_question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MGTOW2/the-basics-and-a-question.805646 https://theredarchive.com/post/805646

Comments