~ archived since 2018 ~

False feminism

MaryMary8249 · 2021-05-05T20:08:59+00:00

I hate it when people say that they believe in equality but they're actually misandrists. It gives real equal rights supporters a bad name....

MaryMary8249

May 5, 2021

23 upvotes

/r/MensRights

Archived from /r/MensRights

r/MensRights is a community advocating for the social and legal equality of men and boys since 2008.

TheRedArchive is an archive of Red Pill subreddits and blogs. This page is our copy of the original post.

/r/MensRights archive

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Support the archive

Everything here was supposed to disappear. Banned subreddits, deleted communities, cancelled blogs — much of what is archived here survives nowhere else.

It stays free — no paywall, no account — for the next man who comes looking, the way it was free for you.

I pay for the servers, the storage and the bandwidth myself. If you want this record still standing in ten years, become one of the people who keeps it online.

Support the archive

Post Information

Title	False feminism
Author	MaryMary8249
Upvotes	23
Comments	96
Date	May 5, 2021 8:08 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/n5p9ms/false_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/false-feminism.829190 https://theredarchive.com/post/829190

Comments

[–]EricAllonde 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eoasap 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmirikolWoker 18 points19 points20 points 5 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]MaryMary8249[S] -7 points-6 points-5 points 5 years ago (69 children) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmirikolWoker 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

believing men have more advantages than women

What legal rights do men have that women lack? If you can find any, are there related responsibilities that women lack as well? What about the inverse?

real equal rights believers

Not synonymous with feminist, for reasons I've gone into earlier.

Acknowledging male domination in certain fields and male advantages isn't sexist.

I'm talking about the idea of class warfare between men and women with men winning, the central premise of feminism. They call it "Patriarchy", and its core features are:

Society is Male Dominated
Male dominance privileges men over women
While some men can sometimes be harmed by this system, the system itself is set up to privilege men and subjugate women for mens express benefit.
Men are in power and the system operates to benefit and serve mens' needs, drives, and interests at the expense of womens' needs, drives, and interests.

If these are true, then society is this way because men want it to be so. Since society is (supposedly) male dominated and serves to benefit mens' needs drives and interests, the subjugation of women must be in-keeping with mens' inclinations.

Therefore, it is in-keeping with mens inclinations to oppress, subjugate, beat, rape, and violate women, including their own mothers, sisters, daughters, wives, girlfriends, and every other women they claim to "love". If a man does not do these things to the women in his life, he is complicit and tacitly supporting the system that allows other men to do this to the women in his life.

not true feminists.

No true Scotsman. The feminists who directly influence education, media, and the law, like Katherine Spillar, Mary Koss, Jess Philips MP, the feminists behind the Duluth Model, and many others, are the Feminists Who Are Like That, and also the only feminists with any influence. That would change the minute the feminists who Aren't Like That stop covering for them and do something about it.

Men aren't even a class

There are legal rights that men lack and women have. That makes them a class of citizen.

[+]MaryMary8249[S] -11 points-10 points-9 points 5 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

I could write a whole essay dispelling this.

1) Legal rights are not the same as real opportunities. Black people have a "legal right" to jury, but George Floyd was killed for no reason.

2) Patriarchy is quite the unsavory term, but it makes sense. It comes from the Greek word for "Ruling Father", but many people have corrupted it into a "Kill All Men" attitude.

3) Men are consistently harmed by toxic masculinity. You are made to feel like it is inhuman of you to have emotions, and you are held to unrealistic body standards, in addition to many other ideas.

4) This is systematic, and has been. It takes a long time to overhaul a system that has been in place since a society where you could cut off people's hands for stealing.]

5) Then I will stop using the term "feminist" for myself if it means "misandrist".

6) What legal rights in particular are you talking about? I do not doubt you. I would just like specifics, and cited sources.

[–]tenchineuro 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Legal rights are not the same as real opportunities. Black people have a "legal right" to jury, but George Floyd was killed for no reason.

A jury is part of the trial system, had George Floyd been charged with a crime and plead innocent he had a right to a trial by a jury of his peers, same as everyone else.

The police kill lots of people, estimates are around 5000/year. Most killed are men and the majority are white, but white lives don't matter so no one pays attention and the killings don't get national press.

Patriarchy is quite the unsavory term, but it makes sense. It comes from the Greek word for "Ruling Father", but many people have corrupted it into a "Kill All Men" attitude.

Patriarchy as defined by feminism is Marxism lite where men as a class oppress women as a class for men's benefit. To be a feminist in good standing requires that one believes in the invisible hand of the patriarchy (with apologies to Adam Smith).

Men are consistently harmed by toxic masculinity.

You mean by doing what women and society requires of them? Men learn pretty fast what happens when they step out of line, you probably won't understand.

A there is no proof that toxic masculinity, which is the idea that masculinity itself is toxic is any sort of a problem. Masculinity is not a problem. The problem is the complete lack of societal support and being blamed for everything. The feminist written Duluth model literally requires police to arrest male DV victims of females. Thanx feminism. Say, you're a feminist, right? You must be proud of feminism's success in punishing male victims.

This is systematic, and has been. It takes a long time to overhaul a system that has been in place

Feminism has been successful at overhauling the system, before the system did not overly discriminate against men or women, now it discriminates against men in every way possible. Thanx feminism.

Then I will stop using the term "feminist" for myself if it means "misandrist".

A rose by any other name would still be feminist. And your posting proves that.

What legal rights in particular are you talking about?

Let's start with male disposibility, in case of war men can be drafted and in WW2 millions died and many more were wounded.

Then there's bodily integrity, they cut the most sensitive part of the male body off an infant without anesthetic. Even in the US hundreds of baby boys die of this every year and for the survivors they face often painful intercourse, reduced sensitivity and the long term effect of exposing the nerves at the tip can be a total loss of feeling in later years. It;s illegal to do this to a girl.

And I've already mentioned that the VAWA + Duluth model requires police at arrest male DV victims of females. But since it DV in such a way that only women can be victims, it denies male victims any support or services. Thanx Feminism.

Duluth is predicated on the "patriarchal terrorism" paradigm of partner violence. That is, men beat their female partners in order to assert masculine dominance within their relationships. Their motives are to conform to patriarchal norms and to reify a patriarchal social/political/cultural order of male dominance and female subordination within the home.
Under this faulty model, women cannot, as a conceptual matter, perpetrate partner abuse. If they hit their male partners, it was in self defense. If they hit first, or are the only partner who hits, they are doing it within the context of "violent resistance" against presumed emotional or psychological abuse on his part.

I'm not gonna get into a drawn out discussion, I can see from the other posts that you really don't care what feminism actually says and does. And I realize that that there's nothing I can do about that.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe in the Duluth Model.

OK, you don't believe in reality. Big shock there.

And I don't believe in male disposability. Honestly, I hate the draft in general.

These things exist whether you believe in them or not.

And I don't care about radical feminism.

Obviously.

Just about people treating each other as humans.

This so-called radical feminism (there is no such thing) stands in opposition to equal treatment. So you really don't care about treating people as humans (whatever that means) either. Your vote is for the status quo.

Go back to preschool if you haven't learned this concept yet.

I'm crushed by your razor sharp wit.

Look, that you don't believe in reality is your own business, there's nothing anyone can do about it. It just proves that you are opposed in fact to doing anything to change this reality. It's the standard feminist call.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 5 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Women rape men almost as often as Men rape women

Over any given 12 month period, it's rare for there to be more then a 10% difference between the two. There are still more male rapists due to higher rates of male-on-male rape compared to female-on-female rape, but neither stat is very high in absolute terms. Contrary to what you've probably heard in the past, most men are not raped by other men. ~80% are raped by women. And more men in total are raped every year than women, making sexual assault more of a men's issue than a women's issue.

Lifetime stats follow this as well, but not as closely. Those stats include all forms of sexual abuse, including things like flashing and groping, and they are less accurate than yearly stats for a number of reasons. The largest being because men, over time, will reframe a rape as consensual due to gender norms (everyone telling him he was "lucky", like if a teacher did it)... speculation is that women may do the opposite, thus moving their stat in the opposite direction. But even the official, unfiltered lifetime stat isn't that far off: 1 in 4 for women and 1 in 6 for men.

Why is this not very well known?

Several decades ago, an early gender studies "researcher" named Mary Koss proposed that a person "forced to penetrate" another person is not in fact raped. She called it unwanted sexual contact and she was very successful in convincing academics and even lawmakers to adopt this definition. While technically it is gender neutral, due to the anatomical differences between men and women, it mainly applied to men. Her rationale was that men must "want it" or are "asking for it" so it doesn't count.

As a result, the true rate of sexual assault against men is usually hidden in official statistics. Instead of rape, they call it "made to penetrate". And many state and national laws around the world similarly define rape in gendered terms, meaning female rapists avoid prosecution and generally don't get discussed in the media. This has led to decades of misinformation on the topic. And it has only just recently started getting attention, both on the legal front, and among academics.

Unpopular? Definitely.

Factual? Absolutely.

Inconvenient? Maybe if you're sexist. That is in fact likely the motivation behind people who try to deny it (I'm looking at you, Mary Koss).

Sources: A good meta-study

Stemple, L., Flores, A., & Meyer, I. H. (2017). Sexual victimization perpetrated by women: Federal data reveal surprising prevalence. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 34, 302-311. Available from: http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/stemple/Stemple-SexualVictimizationPerpetratedFinal.pdf

Some pop science articles

Stemple, L., & Meyer, I. H. (2017). Sexual victimization by women is more common than previously known. Scientific American. Available from: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Young, Cathy. (2014, September 17). The CDC's Rape Numbers Are Misleading. Time. Available online at: https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

Rosin, Hanna. (2014, Arpil 29). When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators. SLATE. Available from: https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/04/male-rape-in-america-a-new-study-reveals-that-men-are-sexually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

43.6% to 48% of self-reported perpetrators are women

Ybarra, M. L., & Mitchell, K. J. (2013). Prevalence rates of male and female sexual violence perpetrators in a national sample of adolescents. JAMA Pediatrics, 167(12), 1125–1134. "2012 study using data from the U. S. Census Bureau’s nationally representative National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions". Quoted in "The Understudied Female Sexual Predator". Available here: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Average past 12 month rate of sexual assault when "made to penetrate" is included:

US Sexual Assault Rates: Average 12 month prevalence (2017 CDC NISVS State Report). Graph: https://i.imgur.com/J5AuzM7.png In 2012, one out of three years recently analyzed by the CDC, more men were raped by women than the reverse

New CDC data again finds as many (if not more) male victims of female rapists than female victims of male rapists. CDC continues to ignore its own shocking findings. Recalculating The Gender War. https://recalculatingthegenderwar.tumblr.com/post/162336650896/new-cdc-data-again-finds-as-many-if-not-more

Men are less likely to view things like bad / unenjoyable sex, drunk sex, and capitulating to sex with a persistent person, as rape (which likely effects reporting and statistics on the topic)

Weiss, K. G. (2010). Male sexual victimization: Examining men’s experiences of rape and sexual assault. Men and Masculinities, 12(3), 275-298. Abstract: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184x08322632

Reed, R. A., Pamlanye, J. T., Truex, H. R., Murphy-Neilson, M. C., Kunaniec, K. P., Newins, A. R., & Wilson, L. C. (2019). Higher rates of unacknowledged rape among men: The role of rape myth acceptance. Psychology of Men & Masculinities. Abstract: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-39470-001

Men are 9 times less likely to report their assault compared to women (which also distorts reporting and statistics on the topic)

Toy Soldiers. "Forced to Penetrate Cases: Lived Experiences of Men". https://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2020/01/05/forced-to-penetrate-cases/

Weare, S. F. (2017). Forced-to-penetrate cases: Lived experiences of men-Baseline Research Findings. The Law School, Lancaster University. PDF: https://wp.lancs.ac.uk/forced-to-penetrate-cases/files/2016/11/Project-Report-Final.pdf

Women receive a broad pass when it comes to sexual assault, especially sexual assault against young children, which distorts federal reporting and statistics on the topic

Denov, M. S. (2003). The myth of innocence: Sexual scripts and the recognition of child sexual abuse by female perpetrators. Journal of Sex Research, 40(3), 303-314. Available from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14533025

Embry, R., & Lyons Jr, P. M. (2012). Sex-based sentencing: Sentencing discrepancies between male and female sex offenders. Feminist Criminology, 7(2), 146-162. Available from: http://www.ncdsv.org/images/fc_sex-basedsentencingdiscrepanciesbetweenmaleandfemalesexoffenders_2012.pdf

"Forced-to-Penetrate" treated different from rape Weare, S. F. (2017). Forced-to-penetrate cases: Lived experiences of men-Baseline Research Findings. The Law School, Lancaster University. Available from: https://wp.lancs.ac.uk/forced-to-penetrate-cases/files/2016/11/Project-Report-Final.pdf

Weare, S. F. (2019). Experiences of men forced-to-penetrate women in the UK: Context, consequences, and engagement with the criminal justice system. The Law School, Lancaster University. Available from: http://wp.lancs.ac.uk/forced-to-penetrate-cases/

Weare, S. (2018). ‘Oh you're a guy, how could you be raped by a woman, that makes no sense’: towards a case for legally recognising and labelling ‘forced-to-penetrate’ cases as rape. International Journal of Law in Context, 14(1), 110-131. PDF: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c40f/3f3dfeeaa75fed2c4ee01673f2fdfb06948f.pdf

Klee, Miles. (2018). WHY CAN’T THE MEDIA CALL A WOMAN RAPING A MAN WHAT IT IS? Mel Magazine. Available online at: https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/why-cant-the-media-call-a-woman-raping-a-man-what-it-is

Siobhan Weare, Lancaster University. (2017). Men forced to have sex with women aren't being properly recognised by the law -- legal expert. THE CONVERSATION. Retrieved October 24, 2019, from http://theconversation.com/men-forced-to-have-sex-with-women-arent-being-properly-recognised-by-the-law-legal-expert-81638

Rumney, P. N. (2007). In defence of gender neutrality within rape. Seattle J. Soc. Just., 6, 481. Available from: http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/14750/1/RumneySJSJ.pdf

Criticism of definitions given by the CDC

Stemple, L., & Meyer, I. H. (2014). The sexual victimization of men in America: New data challenge old assumptions. American Journal of Public Health, 104(6), e19-e26. Available from (HTML): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/#!po=0.877193

Rape laws defined in such a way that women tend to get off the hook, and not counted in government statistics

Sexual Offences Act 2003, c. 42. Available at: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/1

Many US states and many countries around the world have gendered sexual assault laws, usually defined in terms of penetration.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmirikolWoker 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Karen Straughan's response to "those aren't real feminists"

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 5 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad6 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lalala4770 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bufedad1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary82490 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bufedad2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary82491 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bufedad1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. Here's the documentation you asked for.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years.

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i0j2g9/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i6sdli/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iavcnv/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

And it isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

[–]lalala4773 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lalala4772 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lalala4773 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lalala477 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EmirikolWoker 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It looks like the other commenters have your other points in hand, so I'll focus on two:

Patriarchy is quite the unsavory term

That's why I refer to it as "Class Warfare Between Men And Women With Men Winning". It describes exactly what is meant by "Patriarchy" without obfuscation behind a buzzword. And it's hateful, as I described above.

Men are consistently harmed by toxic masculinity.

If you could seperate toxicity from masculinity, what would be left that isn't a gender-neutral trait?

Whenever I've asked that, the response has been:

a list of virtuous traits that the user considers "masculine", implying that women aren't generally capable of those virtues
"I don't believe in gendering positive traits" - just negative ones.
the claim that the "toxicity" traits are erroneously coded masculine. In which case calling them masculine is innacurate and only serves to perpetuate the acknowledged false idea that they're a part of masculinity rather than gender neutral.

So, if you could seperate toxicity from masculinity, what would be left that isn't a gender-neutral trait? That should prove that toxic masculinity isn't just about calling men toxic. That would be hateful, if there was no evidence for it.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well first off, that doesn't make the term anymore equal. That's just a justification for why you think using such a sexist term is ok.

But this is something you really can't get away from. The mere fact that you call yourself a feminist proves that you are sexist and do not want equality. Otherwise you would call yourself an egalitarian or a humanist. Which are terms that actually accurately describe what you are claiming you believe in and want to accomplish.

But you don't do that, do you?

This is why feminism is so keen to redefine words like sexism and racism. Because if they didn't they would have to acknowledge what they are.

As for "when it originated", I assume you meant "HOW it originated", because otherwise your sentence makes no sense. And HOW it originated was from a sexist philosophy that cared only about women and demonized men. And not an especially intelligent or well-thought philosophy either.

So...either way you've kind of illustrated my point.

Even moreso because that little bit was the only thing you could actually respond to.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And no, it didn't "demonize" men.

It entirely did. Read the Declaration of Sentiments. Since you know much more about feminism than its detractors, I'm sure I don't have to explain it further.

> It just sought to make women human beings again.

No it did not. You are lying. This is not what they said then, this is what YOU are trying to say NOW after you have been called on it.

Furthermore, you don't even know what that means, because I already asked you questions about that claim and you've completely ignored those. It is just something meaningless that you are saying due to your lack of knowledge and intellect regarding the subject.

It's a thought-terminating cliche. Nothing more, nothing less.

See this is where this demonizing men comes in. If women were not being treated as human beings...then who was doing that? Because there are only two genders. So unless you have a freaky alien mind control theory or something, you are saying that men treated their mothers, daughters, and sisters as inhuman. Please explain to me how that is not demonizing? I'll wait.

But it's really all academic since you're too cowardly to even define what you mean by being treated as human.

Either way. the fact remains that you're a liar.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]FiredUpAgain-2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

I'm pretty sure mens rights activists know more about what makes someone a feminist than feminists do. Don't try to femsplain feminism to us when we've already decided what our version of feminism is and refuse to acknowledge anyone else's views if they are any different from the worldview we've already decided exists.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[+]FiredUpAgain-2 points 5 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Right. That doesn't make any sense. Why would MRAs know more about feminism than feminists?

Only a crazy person would think that. Which makes you wonder what the hell these people are on about.

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Alzael 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 11 points12 points13 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Punder_man 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

If you have someone who says they are feminist and they believe in equality ask them:

"When was the last time, as a feminist you campaigned for change regarding issues that affect men? i.e Family Court Bias, Male Homelessness, etc

If they answer: "Once we defeat patriarchy then issues affect men will be resolved" then point out that if Patriarchy was indeed a thing.. these issues affecting men would not exist as a system setup to benefit men and oppress women would not work as it currently does.

Or to really push the equality angle they like to cling to.. ask them if they would be offended if terms like

Femsplaining
Femterrupting
Femspreading

would offend them.. and if so why? then point out that Mansplaining, Manterrupting and Manspreading are terms that exist

Ask them if they believe that Toxic Masculinity exists, if so do they also believe that Toxic Femininity exists (because you know.. equality...)

And lastly feel free to point out that if Feminism is about equality.. then why is it gendered? Egalitarian is an ungendered word which means that you believe in equality.

I doubt you'll get satisfactory answers to these questions.. but at the very least you might get them to think about whether feminism is actually about equality or if it's about superiority..

[–]MaryMary8249[S] -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Punder_man 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Many people I know have campaigned against toxic masculinity, male domestic abuse, and other things. No feminist I know uses the word patriarchy in conversation unless they are joking about overthrowing the world and having just our friend group rule over everything.

That's great, but unfortunately when it comes to men's issues most feminists will twist and turn things around to ensure the narrative is that women are the victims.. or they try to justify everything as being the fault of the Patriarchy which just doesn't work.. But I guess what I mean is.. "When was the last time a feminist actually campaigned about the fact that 90% of homeless people are men?" the answer is never because Feminism exists to address the issues facing women (Which I am absolutely fine with) but it's a laugh and a half when they claim to be about equality when they never actively participate in discussions around the issues men face other than to say "Its the fault of the Patriarchy" or "Women have it worse" This is not aimed as a personal attack at you.. more this has been my experience with feminism as a whole.

No, they would not be offended. If a "feminist" tried to teach my father how to use a dishwasher, I'd be infuriated.

The point I was trying to make here was that Manterrupting, Mansplaining and Manspreading are terms that were coined by Feminists primarily used to belittle and shame men. That being said I will acknowledge that there ARE men out there who do speak down to women who know more than them in a patronizing way.. but by calling it "mansplaining" you are gendering the term and implying that its something that men and men alone do.. when obviously there ARE women out there who are equally as guilty of the behavior. and i'm sure there are many women out there that would be offended if terms like Femsplaining, Femterrupting or Femspreading were to gain traction.

Toxic femininity is the culture that you need to look and dress pretty. Toxic masculinity is the culture that if you are not the alpha male you are a failure.

I disagree here.. because the problem is the meaning of "Toxic Masculinity" seems to change on a whim.. its gotten to the stage now that any male trait or behaviour that feminists don't like is now labeled as Toxic Masculinity.. The sad truth of the matter is many feminists refuse to admit that Women can also be toxic because that would dissolve the victimhood mentality they push.

Feminism is gendered because it was originally coined as a term for equal rights between women and men, who were initially in much higher positions of power.

I'm fine with that.. however that should mean that when situations change so should the definition. I'll agree that in the past things were different and Men did have more power / control than women.. but compare it to today's society and women are much more equal in power than they were back then. Ergo, the definition of feminism should change as while there are still areas women are not equal to in men to claim that the power balance differential now is the same as when the term was coined is disingenuous to say the least.

You can also be Egalitarian and still fight for woman's rights.. its just you don't fight for woman's rights at the expense of men's rights or focus on woman's issues to the detriment of men's issues.

Phew.. that was a response and a half.. now please don't take any of my responses as a personal attack. I really am hoping for constructive dialog or at the very least I hope that you might understand my position and the position that many MRA's have regarding feminism.

MRA's are not against woman's rights.. but they feel that the feminist movement has overshadowed and downplays the issues faced by men on a daily basis.

Cheers,

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

More like MERF (male-exclusive feminists)...

Trans people had their own rights movement. Frankly speaking, they didn't even need much help from feminism to be successful.
Feminism just joined the battle at its winning end, to claim the credits of the victory..

Gay and trans people have been fighting for their rights since 1980s, and had already achieved considerable success even before feminism joined in.

But feminism has clearly interjected itself in MRM right from the beginning when menslib was started. And deliberately diluted it to suit its agenda.

It never fought for men's issues.. Not even once in its 100 years history...

Now that MRM is truly gaining traction, they are trying to silence us and censor us...
That tells volumes of the true intentions of feminism.

Feminism has always been MERF. Even the most moderate feminists dont care about male issues. That fact will never change...

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tenchineuro 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dark-Hatter 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Dark-Hatter 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MaryMary8249[S] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CommunicationDue9315 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyone who supports equality, has two brain cells to rub together, and is older than sixteen doesn’t call themselves a feminist.

I mean we could play the same game with Nazis. The holocaust was just a result of a few dozen extremists, who weren’t even real Nazis. Real Nazis believe in the strength and prosperity of the motherland. There is nothing in the ideology about concentration camps.

If you think Nazis are bad then you are either ignorant or a bigot. You have cherry picked a handful of supposed “Nazis” out of millions and held them up as bad, when the majority of Nazis only want peace and prosperity. That or you are a racist who hates Germans, or Christians, or whites.

It’s just a handful of genocidal maniacs that gave Nazis a bad name. If you come learn about what real Nazis believe in, we can help all make the world a better place. No rape, inequality, or fear. That’s what Nazism can give us all if you just do what you are told.