What's the best counter arguement to "Longer prison sentences, higher suicide rates, higher rates of homelessness, etc." are all issues created by men

DelightfulFronds · 2020-11-08T14:23:18+00:00

The problem is that feminists fight any attempt by men to address their own issues with 'Feminists are working on that'. Feminism thought has a near 100% stranglehold on the current mainstream left-wing media. Just look at the recent Johnny Depp thing - your average person has no idea of the actual truth behind the situation. (and the right isn't much better. feminism vs traditionalism is hardly a good choice).

Then look at the response to any attempts by men to help men. The Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman interview is one of the best examples with her spending the entire things trying to put words in his mouth to discredit him. Most of the time the person being interviewed is either not as erudite as him or simply not present in the writeup so cannot defend themselves. Either way anyone who trys to do something gets buried and smeared via yellow journalism.

Feminism is also simply just the womens lobby. They take an issue, then focus only on the women. Domestic Violence, Genital Cutting, Pay Gap, Education, Prison Sentencing, etc. It doesn't matter it the problem affects women or men more, they will only take action on behalf of women.

So to recap:

Feminism has control of the implementation and discussion of the entire gender equality debate.
Feminists will only tackle womens issues despite claiming to be for equality for everyone.
Feminists will attack and discredit any attempt by men to address male issues via smears and misrepresentation.

Essentially the argument (and truth) is that feminists are not doing anything about it, and stopping anyone else doing anything about it.

Even the ex-head of UCAS (University admissions body in the UK) says as much regarding education - https://www.planstaffnow.co.uk/news/boys-left-to-fail-at-school-because-attempts-to-help-them-earn-wrath-of-feminists-says-ex-ucas-chief - and this pattern repeats itself all across society.

Anyway the whole thing is based on the idea that because men are in change they are doing what feminists are doing, which is frankly untrue. Generally men do not show in-group bias and it's up to the person accusing to prove that this is the case.

2020-11-08T14:10:42+00:00

Ask them why they think men are some monolithic creature, rather than just a hugely diverse group of people with some roughly similar characteristics. If you're assuming a homeless man or suicide victim caused their own scenario just because they have a penis, then you're being pretty cruel and dehumanising.

Ask them: if they walked down the street and stopped 500 men, how many of them would have had a hand in designing, building, or running the prison system? If the answer is say 2, then ask why they'd blame the other 498 people for something they had no control over or say in.

BlooShamrock · 2020-11-08T17:51:25+00:00

If you really want to annoy them, say that "black people create their own issues". Then maybe talk about crime

The cognitive dissonance will be palpable.

2020-11-08T15:32:27+00:00

Do we need a counter argument? Complicated question.

In some ways, men are responsible. Majority of men who make the laws and norms that lead to these things.

However, I think we are finding out that women are no better in roles they play in these things.

First, if mostly men held all that power, how do we know women will be any better. I always joked they haven't been given a fair chance to ruin things. Now, there are plenty of examples they aren't generally any better. Terrible governors, law enforcement, senators, etc. Gender doesn't make you a good or bad leader.

So women are just as responsible. They kick kids out of the home. They murder in fits of jealousy and greed.

Men didn't create these things. They would happen in any society whoever was in charge because people are awful.

CoolDEpot · 2020-11-08T13:33:24+00:00

If thats true then all problems women have are created by women then.

themolestedsliver · 2020-11-08T17:29:41+00:00

Ask them "how exactly were the created by men" because that type of "logic" isn't actually logic as opposed to sexist dogma feminists love to believe.

The next thing they would say is that these issues are created by men "because the patriarchy" yet that is a fantasy that doesn't exist. Sure there are countries that still have a patriarchal system of governance but said countries are denounced for that all the time as being backwards and their system of governing hardly is something universal.

Feminist's use vague notions of "the patriarchy" to assure their victim narrative and in turn victim blame men as if they are dealing with the same "enemy" when the issue is far more complicated because there isn't an enemy. Remember being a victim voids someone responsibility or that is at least how they look at it.

In the end there isn't some penis worshiping society that has cabal meetings in which we decide what rights women can and can't but feminists love to pretend that isn't what they say when mention "the patriachy" but it fits the context perfectly.

jukutt · 2020-11-08T18:03:12+00:00

I think what everyone is missing is that the underlying premise is absolute bs. Let's just assume that longer prison sentences, higher suicide rates, higher rates of homelessness were solely cause by men. So what? Those are still problems that need to be solved.

Germans were the cause of the holocaust. But does that mean that we should have let them gas, torture and murder all the German Jews? Or that the German Jews are at fault for their own suffering? Because after all, Germans caused it, right? What??

The underlying premise, that just because you can find some random category in which both victim and perpetrator fit, the victim is at fault for being the victim, is just stupid.

Generally, the stance to try to find blame for the sake of blaming and nothing else, is not a stance that aims for solving the problem.

diogofd8 · 2020-11-08T20:20:17+00:00

To be honest. I've given up trying to argue with feminists. I state the facts, if there's any dismissal by their part I tell them to educate themselves, to read Jordan Peterson because I won't be able to have arguments better backed up than his. If they don't come talking to be with a more open, less "anti-men" view, then I dodged a bullet.

The best counter argument you can give neo-feminists is ignoring them. They clearly are against men so they should be put aside by all men, live in their small world with only women and be happy by themselves. I'm hoping that this corona era is also the peak of neo-feminism and that when people return to normal life, neo-feminism goes down slowly but steadily.

mhelena9201 · 2020-11-08T20:27:56+00:00

That feminist arguement literally makes no sense. Hypothetically, if true (it isnt true either anyway, unless the feminsits is claiming women have 0 contribution to society and are responsible for nothing and men have built and done everything) it would mean you are saying male victims are the same as male perps.... effecively "your skirt was short so you deserved to be raped" type arguement... but even worse, its literally saying a male victim is at fault simply for being existing as a male.

More to the point, it highlights the problem with feminism.... its an idealogy/religion type thing... its completelty anti science and anti logic.... it literally tries to take every problem and then ascrive gender to it (but only female gender)... if using a scientific and logical approach you'd simply want to e.g. reduce homlessness, suicide etc.... a feminists goes on all sorts of weird conspiracy theories about patriarchy conspiracy theories etc..... no dummy theres a problem e.g. homelessness, how do you solve it using practical steps..... feminism of course mainly does this on mens issues, on womens issues it does this too but also says hey give us 100 million dollars to solve it too, on mens issues it says no no no heres the touchy feely reaons and explanations, lets debate it, no no no ban any fudning to actually solve the issue.

iainmf · 2020-11-08T21:34:35+00:00

You don’t have to counter the claim they are caused by men because the important point is that men have problems that need addressing. If you are arguing over the cause of the problems then you both agree men have problems.

I suspect the point they are trying to make is that men’s issues are not as important as women’s issues. It’s fine for them to have that opinion. When people try to convince me that women’s issues are more important I say something like “I’m glad people think women’s issues are important. My focus is on men’s issues because It is important to me.”

I also like to point out the we should address injustice, regardless of the cause.

manaos_de_uva · 2020-11-08T16:19:35+00:00

A person isn't responsible for another person's actions even when both persons are from the same group.

connzerjeeass · 2020-11-08T23:28:20+00:00

Tell them the reason for higher prison inmates bejng men is because the justice system activly ignores women criminals or writes them off with no evidence as innocent

accidental_me · 2020-11-09T09:02:37+00:00

Men have two kinds of problems: those that affect all or, at least, most of us (like negative stereotypes) and then those that affect marginalized people (who are mostly men like the prison inmates).

There is a link between these two groups, though: in a probabilistic sense all men are in a group that has a higher likelihood to become marginalized. So, being a man increases, for example, you chances of ending up in prison because the negative stereotypes people consciously or subconsciously attach to men.

Likewise, the marginalized people give all men a bad name (by being violent, for example). So, it's a vicious circle.

Women are by no means out of this "loop". A female judge has pretty much the same negative stereotypes, or even more negative ones.

So, it's a system that keeps running regardless of which people "run" it. That's basic sociology 101.

This is one way to look at the male-specific problems. Of course there are other ways, Basically you could say that the most civilized societies try to find social and medical reasons for anti-social behavior that lead to marginalization. Victim blaming is considered "barbaric".

The same goes for families: if there is a black sheep in your family you try to understand what made him that way and don't just blame him for his problems. That's because you still love him and don't start despising and hating him the minute he starts doing wrong things.

Societies in general can also be compassion oriented. An ideology like Feminism or Racism can turn them to something else. People love to hate if they are given a "legitimate" justification.

madtayham · 2020-11-09T22:45:31+00:00

It’s like saying all abortions are created by women. Like no it’s not their fault and also it relies on participation from both sexes.

Men’s suicide rates are perpetuated by both men and women. Men refuse to show their emotions and women (generally conservative women) believe men should be strong and emotionless.

Id also remind them that gender equality needs to be matched on both sides. If you want to reduce the pay gap, then you need to improve fatherhood rights. I wouldn’t be surprised if you just need to reason with them a little. Tbh I’ve never met these radical man hating feminists in the flesh. But I have many feminist friends who are super invested in men’s health (many raise money for movember and grow moustaches) and I don’t know anyone that believes the prison system is men’s fault. That’s so backwards. I suppose because the government is mostly men? But that’s beside the point. The creation of the prison system is not why men are in prison. You need prison. They’re in prison because they feel they don’t have any fall back options in the face of poverty or abuse. This is something both sexes should be concerned about.

Title	What's the best counter arguement to "Longer prison sentences, higher suicide rates, higher rates of homelessness, etc." are all issues created by men
Author	RowanHarley
Upvotes	43
Comments	26
Date	November 8, 2020 1:31 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/jqbr9v/whats_the_best_counter_arguement_to_longer_prison/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/whats-the-best-counter-arguement-to-longer-prison.841170 https://theredarchive.com/post/841170

Comments