So this is rape, but a women tricking a man and getting pregnant by stopping birth control or some other method is totally cool? Double standards don't help anybody
I don't believe that this is a thing. Maybe a few weird guys...
Pregnancy = 216 child support payments.
STDs.
Edit. This happened to me. I was 18 and the condom came off and I didn't realize it. I was young, inexperienced. Also, note to self, don't buy magnum sized because I'm not.
Im sure a small amount of men do it because they’re stupid and short sighted, but you have to love how quickly this issue was recognized and legislated against without much evidence that it was a big issue at all.
They also found excuses to not have tricking someone = rape extend to women.
Who said women tricking men is cool? By it's definition, "tricking" isn't cool, what the fuck is this whatboutism? Just like last time I checked with you guys, you are impotent in dealing with serious matters other than in an emotionally-triggered way, the entire existence of this "movement" is nothing but whataboutisms as you're incapable to address issues unless they are first addressed by an another group "yeah that's bad, but what about X" and in doing so you are defending the rapists as well.
The narcissist's prayer can be seen in this thread as well as in many others on this sub every time some stupid shit that some piece of shit did to someone and who happens to be a guy
Legally it is if a woman tricks a man into pregnancy. Even if a woman forces a man into pregnancy. Right now in America men are being forced to pay money to the women that raped them.
defending the rapists
Like those feminists who have told me personally that men can't be raped?
The narcissist's prayer can be seen in this thread as well as in many others on this sub every time some stupid shit that some piece of shit did to someone and who happens to be a guy
If the law protected us and offered us equal rights we wouldn't be complaining. It doesn't so we do.
Legally it is if a woman tricks a man into pregnancy. Even if a woman forces a man into pregnancy. Right now in American men are being forced to pay money to the women that raped them.
Doesn't even have to be a man. It can be an underage boy, and come his 18th birthday he can be made to pay child support to his rapist.
the entire existence of this "movement" is nothing but whataboutisms as you're incapable to address issues unless they are first addressed by an another group
Not everybody thinks like that, you can find just as many people with coloured opinions inside feminist movements.
However the MRM also addresses clearly male issues (Homelessness, the "death gap", suicide, etc...), but without mainstream platforms that are interested in these issues, it's no surprise you haven't heard of it. I'd suggest that beyond the inflammatory comments (which are just as credible in my mind as the "kill all men" memes), you educate yourself on the issues the MRM champions. There's a lot of scholarly sources out there, some of which are available in the FAQ.
I think what's being pointed out in the whatabout posts is that our culture is WAY interested if the 'victim' is female, and much less so, or not at all, if the victim is male. That's a legitimate issue for men. Leaving out all the good things men have done, and the not-so-good things that women have done is about demonizing men - another major male issue.
So, on the surface, your post makes sense. Looking at it more closely - much less so.
I know, right? Some women sabotage birth control, so everyone gets to sexually assault everyone now. Fuck condoms. Women and gay men of the world, suck it up. Double standards don’t help anyone. Rape helps everyone!
What are you talking about. I'm saying that both cases are instances of rape, albeit one is much more common than the other(most likely) and both are horrific. However our family court system and the feminist movement actively fight to harm men and prevent them from getting justice or fair treatment when they are the victims.
I agree, I really do. Things are fucked up and you aren’t wrong that society and the family court system are preventing men from getting fair treatment.
But your comment and your original post read entirely differently. Your post implies that something bad happening to someone doesn’t matter because bad things happen to other people too. It’s invalidating and diminishing victims.
We can’t just use victims speaking out about one crime as proof that things are fucked up with the system. It’s bad to be a victim of any sexual assault, and it’s good to speak out about it. Doing so isn’t a double standard.
The whole point is that women CAN speak up about it, and people listen to them. Men who are victims are ignored at best, and shamed at worst for speaking up.
I’m a woman. There are times when my voice is unfairly heard more than a man’s. So i believe it’s my obligation to use it and speak up. When I see a man trying to participate in metoo and getting shut down because it’s “only for women”, that enrages me. I’ll say something. It also enrages me when I come here and see everyone posting links to articles about women who tried to report a rape and didn’t have enough evidence to prove it. Every one of them is assumed to be lying. This group literally sticks a “false accusation” label on every one of them. Don’t tell me women are taken seriously and not shamed. Half the posts here are dedicated to shaming women.
Men and boys aren’t taken seriously. It’s a huge injustice. You have such a valid point, and I can list several things in the media from just the past WEEK that back it up. More people should be talking about this. You don’t have to invalidate a female victim to be right about that, and you aren’t helping men by doing so.
You don’t have to invalidate a female victim to be right about that, and you aren’t helping men by doing so.
How is pointing out a double standard invalidating victims and not helping men?
They didn't say the woman was not a victim. You are going to have to walk me through your thought process, because I am calling bullshit all over this.
There was no double standard! No one said X is assault and Y is not. No one ruled that a man can be charged with a crime and a woman can not. Lots of people do not believe that it is assault for a man to remove a condom deceptively. The original post title insinuated just that. Not everything is a double standard.
However, go out an ask 10 or 100 or 1000 people if a man removing a condom without the woman's consent is wrong.
Now, ask the same people if a woman stopping birth control without telling her partner is wrong.
Some will still say it is wrong. Some will say something to the effect of "her body, her choice", or some other excuse. And yes, it is her body, I agree. However, it takes two to make a baby, medical procedures aside.
Her choice...? Yes, it is legally, but I disagree. When the man is on the hook and now has to finance her choice that she made without his consent, is that right or wrong?
It’s wrong, definitively. I appreciate the patience and respect in your response, and very much appreciate you acknowledging a woman’s right to bodily autonomy, it means a lot to hear that, especially from (I’m assuming) a man on this sub.
But to further agree with you, “her body, her choice” in no way transfers to sabotaging birth control without consent. Taking deceptive action to get pregnant is not her choice, and anyone who believes that or excuses it is wrong. I am aware this happens and aware not everyone believes it’s wrong, not trying to suggest otherwise. I’ve been a witness to it rather recently, and I’m really struggling to maintain a friendship with someone that I love, but has done something that I can not condone.
My only point is that while double standards are indeed wrong (and absolutely exist and are harmful to men as well as women — the Katy Perry situation has been keeping me up at night), and calling them out can be a useful tool in confronting biases and pointing out unequal treatment, this argument can be misplaced and used inappropriately.
If a woman posted a link to a story about a man reporting a sexual assault with the title “when a man reports a rape, MRAs believe it, but when a woman reports it they call us liars. Double standards don’t help anyone” I would have the EXACT same response that I did to this. A double standard may exist, but a man reporting a sexual assault and other men caring about it and bringing attention to is not a double standard. This type of post sends the message that male victims don’t matter because it happens to females too and some men don’t care so we shouldn’t care about this man. That is what I mean when I say there is no double standard here.
When I say the double standards argument isn’t helping men, I don’t mean to invalidate it. It has its purpose but using it in this way doesn’t help men because it shifts the conversation from outrage and empathy for a victim, and towards a conversation about how much women suck, and victims deserve more than that. The argument that men aren’t taken seriously is already valid and stands on its own.
Using the argument in this case, whether intentional or not, states “it’s ok for a woman/man to do x, so it should be ok for a man/woman to do it too” (which to be clear is not what the OP said, nor do I think he believes this) The problem isn’t that it should be ok, it’s that it’s wrong.
Apologies for the long reply. I’m trying to work out these thoughts for myself, and am not always as articulate as I would like to be.
Its all good. I understand people have different viewpoints than I, and all I ever really want people I argue with is for them to think, which you appear to be doing.
I try to return the favor by turning my brain on and thinking as well.
What I see from your argument is that we are using whataboutism in our subreddit. I'm not taking it as an insult, it is just a name for a type of action.
Now, yes, one could say, as we talked about, that we are taking the sympathy and victim status away from one group and saying "well, what about this group!?" I mean, that is what whataboutism is exactly.
But the end goal here is that we want women and men treated equally. To do that, we must raise awareness. We must do this by pointing out what the double standards are.
The Katy Perry example is perfect. If a man did what she did, he would be (very likely) fired, perhaps blacklisted in their industry and employers would not want to hire them. After what she did (because she is a woman)... silence.
So the exact nature of a double standard is two standards, one for one group, one for another. In this case, the man would be (not literally) crucified, but why? That is the important question.
WHY would a man be treated differently in this scenario? Is it perhaps because people see men as nothing more than would-be rapists? I think this is a big factor. Any sexual behavior these days by men seems to be demonized as the actions of a sexual predator! As if women have no agency, are asexual, and/or are unable to think for themselves. As if a woman is nothing more than a naive thing seduced by evil men into having sinful, evil sex.
So, we point out these double standards so that people may think "Why do I think this is wrong for a man, but not for a woman?" And decide for themselves.
[–]theothermod[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link
Reminder to readers: Please don't vote or comment in linked subreddits unless you are a subscriber. It's considered bad rediquette.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't believe that this is a thing. Maybe a few weird guys...
Pregnancy = 216 child support payments.
STDs.
Edit. This happened to me. I was 18 and the condom came off and I didn't realize it. I was young, inexperienced. Also, note to self, don't buy magnum sized because I'm not.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Im sure a small amount of men do it because they’re stupid and short sighted, but you have to love how quickly this issue was recognized and legislated against without much evidence that it was a big issue at all.
They also found excuses to not have tricking someone = rape extend to women.
[–]mwobuddy -3 points-2 points-1 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Sounds like misjudging 4 inches cost you half a mil.
Men truly are the architects of their own lives, because a fuckup on such a small scale is damn expensive.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Haven’t you heard from the feminists? Only women can get raped
[–]McGauth925 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Umm. THIS particular double standard helps women, no?
[–]thegayotter 0 points1 point2 points (5 children) | Copy Link
Who said women tricking men is cool? By it's definition, "tricking" isn't cool, what the fuck is this whatboutism?
Just like last time I checked with you guys, you are impotent in dealing with serious matters other than in an emotionally-triggered way, the entire existence of this "movement" is nothing but whataboutisms as you're incapable to address issues unless they are first addressed by an another group "yeah that's bad, but what about X" and in doing so you are defending the rapists as well.
The narcissist's prayer can be seen in this thread as well as in many others on this sub every time some stupid shit that some piece of shit did to someone and who happens to be a guy
[–]backthefuckupbitch 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Legally it is if a woman tricks a man into pregnancy. Even if a woman forces a man into pregnancy. Right now in America men are being forced to pay money to the women that raped them.
Like those feminists who have told me personally that men can't be raped?
If the law protected us and offered us equal rights we wouldn't be complaining. It doesn't so we do.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Doesn't even have to be a man. It can be an underage boy, and come his 18th birthday he can be made to pay child support to his rapist.
[–]BionicTransWomyn[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Not everybody thinks like that, you can find just as many people with coloured opinions inside feminist movements.
However the MRM also addresses clearly male issues (Homelessness, the "death gap", suicide, etc...), but without mainstream platforms that are interested in these issues, it's no surprise you haven't heard of it. I'd suggest that beyond the inflammatory comments (which are just as credible in my mind as the "kill all men" memes), you educate yourself on the issues the MRM champions. There's a lot of scholarly sources out there, some of which are available in the FAQ.
[–]McGauth925 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I think what's being pointed out in the whatabout posts is that our culture is WAY interested if the 'victim' is female, and much less so, or not at all, if the victim is male. That's a legitimate issue for men. Leaving out all the good things men have done, and the not-so-good things that women have done is about demonizing men - another major male issue.
So, on the surface, your post makes sense. Looking at it more closely - much less so.
[+]contexistential -13 points-12 points-11 points (11 children) | Copy Link
I know, right? Some women sabotage birth control, so everyone gets to sexually assault everyone now. Fuck condoms. Women and gay men of the world, suck it up. Double standards don’t help anyone. Rape helps everyone!
/s
[+]powersgoblue3 points [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link
What are you talking about. I'm saying that both cases are instances of rape, albeit one is much more common than the other(most likely) and both are horrific. However our family court system and the feminist movement actively fight to harm men and prevent them from getting justice or fair treatment when they are the victims.
[–]contexistential -5 points-4 points-3 points (9 children) | Copy Link
I agree, I really do. Things are fucked up and you aren’t wrong that society and the family court system are preventing men from getting fair treatment.
But your comment and your original post read entirely differently. Your post implies that something bad happening to someone doesn’t matter because bad things happen to other people too. It’s invalidating and diminishing victims.
We can’t just use victims speaking out about one crime as proof that things are fucked up with the system. It’s bad to be a victim of any sexual assault, and it’s good to speak out about it. Doing so isn’t a double standard.
[–]Wsing1974 4 points5 points6 points (8 children) | Copy Link
The whole point is that women CAN speak up about it, and people listen to them. Men who are victims are ignored at best, and shamed at worst for speaking up.
[–]contexistential 0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
Men who are victims ARE ignored and shamed.
I’m a woman. There are times when my voice is unfairly heard more than a man’s. So i believe it’s my obligation to use it and speak up. When I see a man trying to participate in metoo and getting shut down because it’s “only for women”, that enrages me. I’ll say something. It also enrages me when I come here and see everyone posting links to articles about women who tried to report a rape and didn’t have enough evidence to prove it. Every one of them is assumed to be lying. This group literally sticks a “false accusation” label on every one of them. Don’t tell me women are taken seriously and not shamed. Half the posts here are dedicated to shaming women.
Men and boys aren’t taken seriously. It’s a huge injustice. You have such a valid point, and I can list several things in the media from just the past WEEK that back it up. More people should be talking about this. You don’t have to invalidate a female victim to be right about that, and you aren’t helping men by doing so.
[–]Historybuffman 2 points3 points4 points (5 children) | Copy Link
How is pointing out a double standard invalidating victims and not helping men?
They didn't say the woman was not a victim. You are going to have to walk me through your thought process, because I am calling bullshit all over this.
[–]contexistential 0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
There was no double standard! No one said X is assault and Y is not. No one ruled that a man can be charged with a crime and a woman can not. Lots of people do not believe that it is assault for a man to remove a condom deceptively. The original post title insinuated just that. Not everything is a double standard.
[–]Historybuffman 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
Legally, maybe not.
However, go out an ask 10 or 100 or 1000 people if a man removing a condom without the woman's consent is wrong.
Now, ask the same people if a woman stopping birth control without telling her partner is wrong.
Some will still say it is wrong. Some will say something to the effect of "her body, her choice", or some other excuse. And yes, it is her body, I agree. However, it takes two to make a baby, medical procedures aside.
Her choice...? Yes, it is legally, but I disagree. When the man is on the hook and now has to finance her choice that she made without his consent, is that right or wrong?
[–]contexistential 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
It’s wrong, definitively. I appreciate the patience and respect in your response, and very much appreciate you acknowledging a woman’s right to bodily autonomy, it means a lot to hear that, especially from (I’m assuming) a man on this sub.
But to further agree with you, “her body, her choice” in no way transfers to sabotaging birth control without consent. Taking deceptive action to get pregnant is not her choice, and anyone who believes that or excuses it is wrong. I am aware this happens and aware not everyone believes it’s wrong, not trying to suggest otherwise. I’ve been a witness to it rather recently, and I’m really struggling to maintain a friendship with someone that I love, but has done something that I can not condone.
My only point is that while double standards are indeed wrong (and absolutely exist and are harmful to men as well as women — the Katy Perry situation has been keeping me up at night), and calling them out can be a useful tool in confronting biases and pointing out unequal treatment, this argument can be misplaced and used inappropriately.
If a woman posted a link to a story about a man reporting a sexual assault with the title “when a man reports a rape, MRAs believe it, but when a woman reports it they call us liars. Double standards don’t help anyone” I would have the EXACT same response that I did to this. A double standard may exist, but a man reporting a sexual assault and other men caring about it and bringing attention to is not a double standard. This type of post sends the message that male victims don’t matter because it happens to females too and some men don’t care so we shouldn’t care about this man. That is what I mean when I say there is no double standard here.
When I say the double standards argument isn’t helping men, I don’t mean to invalidate it. It has its purpose but using it in this way doesn’t help men because it shifts the conversation from outrage and empathy for a victim, and towards a conversation about how much women suck, and victims deserve more than that. The argument that men aren’t taken seriously is already valid and stands on its own.
Using the argument in this case, whether intentional or not, states “it’s ok for a woman/man to do x, so it should be ok for a man/woman to do it too” (which to be clear is not what the OP said, nor do I think he believes this) The problem isn’t that it should be ok, it’s that it’s wrong.
Apologies for the long reply. I’m trying to work out these thoughts for myself, and am not always as articulate as I would like to be.
[–]Historybuffman 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Its all good. I understand people have different viewpoints than I, and all I ever really want people I argue with is for them to think, which you appear to be doing.
I try to return the favor by turning my brain on and thinking as well.
What I see from your argument is that we are using whataboutism in our subreddit. I'm not taking it as an insult, it is just a name for a type of action.
Now, yes, one could say, as we talked about, that we are taking the sympathy and victim status away from one group and saying "well, what about this group!?" I mean, that is what whataboutism is exactly.
But the end goal here is that we want women and men treated equally. To do that, we must raise awareness. We must do this by pointing out what the double standards are.
The Katy Perry example is perfect. If a man did what she did, he would be (very likely) fired, perhaps blacklisted in their industry and employers would not want to hire them. After what she did (because she is a woman)... silence.
So the exact nature of a double standard is two standards, one for one group, one for another. In this case, the man would be (not literally) crucified, but why? That is the important question.
WHY would a man be treated differently in this scenario? Is it perhaps because people see men as nothing more than would-be rapists? I think this is a big factor. Any sexual behavior these days by men seems to be demonized as the actions of a sexual predator! As if women have no agency, are asexual, and/or are unable to think for themselves. As if a woman is nothing more than a naive thing seduced by evil men into having sinful, evil sex.
So, we point out these double standards so that people may think "Why do I think this is wrong for a man, but not for a woman?" And decide for themselves.